easy luxluthor, hes only trying to provide more information, everything, and i mean everything, excepting what came out of General Cone's mouth is speculation, even the most reliable news station is speculating, the truth lies somewhere between the overly PC and the overly prejudice, of course we know nothing about what actually went through his head but hearing all sides and taking everything with a grain of salt is the media consumer's job, the decision is ours, but even speculative information can be helpful (negatively or positively) in making educated choices about what we think happened
Ft. Hood Shootings - Take 2
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All little snapshots in a large colage. I think part of the uncovering process involves having to examine with objectivity. Some of us will toss out what we don't perceive to be valid, others will add this to the cumulative case in an effort to build their ideas. Regarding the source, I don't have a problem with it and recognize that some don't even consider Fox or CNN verified sources since they believe everything is a conspiracy. We probably need a little leeway in the area of sources. Just my 1 cent. As long as the name callers remain in hibernation we should be ok.
I'm enjoying this thread bwt. It's nice to have a "real" topic instead of talking about barbecues or something.
While the discussion involves a topic of religion, particularly in an extremist fashion, attempting to hold the discussion to a particular level of acceptability is very difficult. Under a certain level is of little practical value to the topic, and above a certain level it gets into areas that could be offensive to many of our members. We have members from all over the world, and of all types of religious persuasion. No doubt none would want what they hold sacred to be unfairly challenged as root cause or even contributive toward mass murder and mayhem.
Can I determine with any accuracy when or if comments that seem necessary to the discussion goes too far? Perhaps to a limited extent, though functionally, likely not.
Lux, the topic is important enough that your creation of a 2nd thread is likely appreciated by many. Your efforts of responsibility in holding it to a perceived limit is admirable and appreciated. To do so would likely prove frustrating.
So, what are our choices? We could close it now, or we could let it go until it becomes apparent that it is beyond acceptable.
I'd be inclined at this time to ask our participants to consider the directions the thread takes, and it's effect on others outside our own spheres of belief and preferences. If it becomes clear that it is upsetting to some, or if common sense shows it beyond proper consideration, then it will be closed immediately.
I'd still recommend the areas of potential friction be addressed on a thread in the Underground. The Underground was designed with just such a situation in mind.
Can I determine with any accuracy when or if comments that seem necessary to the discussion goes too far? Perhaps to a limited extent, though functionally, likely not.
Lux, the topic is important enough that your creation of a 2nd thread is likely appreciated by many. Your efforts of responsibility in holding it to a perceived limit is admirable and appreciated. To do so would likely prove frustrating.
So, what are our choices? We could close it now, or we could let it go until it becomes apparent that it is beyond acceptable.
I'd be inclined at this time to ask our participants to consider the directions the thread takes, and it's effect on others outside our own spheres of belief and preferences. If it becomes clear that it is upsetting to some, or if common sense shows it beyond proper consideration, then it will be closed immediately.
I'd still recommend the areas of potential friction be addressed on a thread in the Underground. The Underground was designed with just such a situation in mind.
StarHalo
Flashaholic
I think you were clear enough in the first thread to avoid religious speculation. I would agree that some of the polarizing and debate-prone aspects of religious matters should be relegated to the Underground. However, as a straightforward collection of information as provided by the media, and reconstruction of events and interpretation free of unnecessary religious and cultural accusation, these threads have done well to provide a broad range of sources and data, and should continue to do so.
I would be entirely comfortable with this thread being viewed by any person, including those persons involved directly or indirectly to the actual event. We should strive to keep it that way.
Empath, thank you very much for your thoughtful reply.
My objections have nothing to do with being politically correct about this murdering "Dr. Terror." Rather, once you open the door to anyone making comments, and that being interpreted as accurate by a radio show...it puts this whole conversation and documentation one step above trashy National Enquirer fiction. People can find supposed sources on this topic all over the map, and present them in patterns of heresay to put forth whatever theory you want.
Having supposed Hassan patients (servicemembers) calling in and reporting whatever--without certified affidavits, or at the very least, written proof of an actual visit appointment, all of which are protected under patient confidentiality is an insult to finding out the facts of what happened.
Someone even from that base could be sufficiently enraged to call and pretend to be a Hassan patient--report that he forced them to undergo aggressive anal probes, or that he screamed alien chants until they had blood dripping from their eyes, or that he shoved bamboo splinters under their fingernails, or told them their mother wears army boots, or he wishes they had died in a previous tour--all of which are totally useless and can be collected and made to say whatever the radio presenter (or StarHalo) has on their agenda, such as telling all of us a fantasy reconstruction story about what they think was really going on the shooter's mind.
However, if and when there is credible documented backup evidence, then new source information can be useful at establishing what actually happened, and how the ball was dropped.
The existence of his PowerPoint presentation slides content, the direct interviews by credible authorities of the victims and witnesses of the shooting, the existence of internet and phone records communicating with his Virginia Iman now in Yemen, direct quotes from clearly identified co-workers and residency training supervisors are examples of valid evidence that allows a proper understanding.
I have no loyalty to this monster or any regard for his relationship to anyone or anything that contributed to such atrocities. I do care about what actual pieces of the puzzle can be gleaned, since this can happen again.
My objections have nothing to do with being politically correct about this murdering "Dr. Terror." Rather, once you open the door to anyone making comments, and that being interpreted as accurate by a radio show...it puts this whole conversation and documentation one step above trashy National Enquirer fiction. People can find supposed sources on this topic all over the map, and present them in patterns of heresay to put forth whatever theory you want.
Having supposed Hassan patients (servicemembers) calling in and reporting whatever--without certified affidavits, or at the very least, written proof of an actual visit appointment, all of which are protected under patient confidentiality is an insult to finding out the facts of what happened.
Someone even from that base could be sufficiently enraged to call and pretend to be a Hassan patient--report that he forced them to undergo aggressive anal probes, or that he screamed alien chants until they had blood dripping from their eyes, or that he shoved bamboo splinters under their fingernails, or told them their mother wears army boots, or he wishes they had died in a previous tour--all of which are totally useless and can be collected and made to say whatever the radio presenter (or StarHalo) has on their agenda, such as telling all of us a fantasy reconstruction story about what they think was really going on the shooter's mind.
However, if and when there is credible documented backup evidence, then new source information can be useful at establishing what actually happened, and how the ball was dropped.
The existence of his PowerPoint presentation slides content, the direct interviews by credible authorities of the victims and witnesses of the shooting, the existence of internet and phone records communicating with his Virginia Iman now in Yemen, direct quotes from clearly identified co-workers and residency training supervisors are examples of valid evidence that allows a proper understanding.
I have no loyalty to this monster or any regard for his relationship to anyone or anything that contributed to such atrocities. I do care about what actual pieces of the puzzle can be gleaned, since this can happen again.
StarHalo
Flashaholic
I got to watch the aforementioned episode of Oprah; 5'2" Sgt "Mighty Mouse" Munley seemed in good spirits and was eager to get back to work. Oprah made only a few indirect questions about the specifics of what went on, but Munley noted that at the time the call came in, she was cleaning and refueling her squad car for a shift change. Upon arriving, there was quite a bit of confusion on the scene, with most bystanders pointing in the direction of where the attack was taking place. After going up a nearby hill, armed only with her service pistol, she encountered gunfire and engaged Hasan. There weren't many more details beyond that, aside from mentioning her injuries in passing - she was first grazed on a knuckle on her right hand, and one round struck her leg squarely. She noted that she was completely conscious and aware for the entire event, and had to focus on her breathing to avoid going into shock.
Sgt Mark Todd, who responded at the same time as Munley, was also there. Todd, who was not injured, carried on after Munley and was ultimately able to remove the gun from the now-fallen Hasan's hand; immediately after, he and several other officers began CPR and life-saving measures on Hasan. He noted it was the first time in his 25 years of police service that he had ever used his sidearm in the field.
Sgt Mark Todd, who responded at the same time as Munley, was also there. Todd, who was not injured, carried on after Munley and was ultimately able to remove the gun from the now-fallen Hasan's hand; immediately after, he and several other officers began CPR and life-saving measures on Hasan. He noted it was the first time in his 25 years of police service that he had ever used his sidearm in the field.
That too, is a concern for me. I'm not a big fan of the Art Bell sort of sensationalism as a journalistic style. Then too, I have to recognize that we aren't a journalistic news source. We're only discussing the situation among ourselves; meaning we can respond that we find a particular source questionable. I'm more interested in the respectable social interaction, fairness to one another, and the 'Cafe' type laid-back atmosphere.
StarHalo
Flashaholic
A press briefing just wrapped up at Fort Hood a few minutes ago; not much new info to share aside from Hasan being officially charged with 13 counts of murder. The spokesperson noted that Hasan is legally not allowed to speak with the press while he is receiving medical treatment.
Only one of the wounded still remains in ICU, and all the wounded are said to be in stable condition.
A spokesman for the Army's Criminal Division urged patience and said that there was no estimated time on how long the investigation would take due to the magnitude and scale of the crime scene, which covers not just the Readiness Center, but four other buildings and two parking lots, and the several hundred cars in the general area. He also implied that there were only "two police officers" who engaged Hasan, which would point to Munley and Todd.
Also of note: President Obama has ordered a full review of all the federal intelligence data/communications collected in regards to Hasan. I predict that this will be a dead end -- Since the feds found nothing they could act on, we can deduce that there was nothing in those conversations that indicated an imminent or even possible attack; it was most likely the same anti-Western sentiment found in any extreme-leaning establishment, so would exactly could be done? A charge of "Talking Somewhat Like Someone Who Might Eventually Be A Terrorist"? A Breech Of Conduct charge wouldn't be appropriate, as it's usually reserved for more extensive violations, like blatant adultery (plus charging someone for a non-threatening conversation with a spiritual guide would be very politically questionable.) The transcripts will eventually be released, and they will probably be rather caustic, and will re-ignite the usual polarizing cultural/religious issues, but in the end, it will just be extremist proselytizing and echo-chambering between two men that wouldn't fall under any criminal charge.
And a new question: Hasan made roughly $90,000 a year, was not paying/repaying for schooling, was not married or involved, and lived in a $300-a-month apartment -- where did the money go?
Only one of the wounded still remains in ICU, and all the wounded are said to be in stable condition.
A spokesman for the Army's Criminal Division urged patience and said that there was no estimated time on how long the investigation would take due to the magnitude and scale of the crime scene, which covers not just the Readiness Center, but four other buildings and two parking lots, and the several hundred cars in the general area. He also implied that there were only "two police officers" who engaged Hasan, which would point to Munley and Todd.
Also of note: President Obama has ordered a full review of all the federal intelligence data/communications collected in regards to Hasan. I predict that this will be a dead end -- Since the feds found nothing they could act on, we can deduce that there was nothing in those conversations that indicated an imminent or even possible attack; it was most likely the same anti-Western sentiment found in any extreme-leaning establishment, so would exactly could be done? A charge of "Talking Somewhat Like Someone Who Might Eventually Be A Terrorist"? A Breech Of Conduct charge wouldn't be appropriate, as it's usually reserved for more extensive violations, like blatant adultery (plus charging someone for a non-threatening conversation with a spiritual guide would be very politically questionable.) The transcripts will eventually be released, and they will probably be rather caustic, and will re-ignite the usual polarizing cultural/religious issues, but in the end, it will just be extremist proselytizing and echo-chambering between two men that wouldn't fall under any criminal charge.
And a new question: Hasan made roughly $90,000 a year, was not paying/repaying for schooling, was not married or involved, and lived in a $300-a-month apartment -- where did the money go?
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DimeRazorback
Flashlight Enthusiast
Continuing along this thought, I know a young man who is a University lecturer.
Recently, he had a debate with one of his students over a topic (he is a chemistry lecturer)
He eventually lead to points in the discussion that she could no longer disagree with or disprove, and therefore she was 'defeated' in their debate.
One week later, he was on review by the Uni for racism.
Turns out that she was a different race to him, and didn't like the fact that she lost the discussion and entered a formal complaint that he was racist...
He had over 8 witnesses, a couple of whom were the same race as the accusing female, to back up his side of the story.
Yet his job is still on the line, and he is still under review.
The world sometimes :shrug:
Reported on Fox News tonight and shown acual image of actual business cards Hassan had printed up with no mention of his military credentials, and underneath his name the letters: "SoA (SWT)" which stands for "Soldier of Allah" & "Subhanahu Wa Ta'all," which means "glory to God."
Also in that Fox News story is another slide show link of his sparse, one room apartment, & minimal contents. He apparently likes spartan white. Most curious of all are some self-prescribed prescription bottles-Tesalon for cough suppression, but another for Combivir to treat HIV. Please tell me he did expose the emergency and hospital workers to HIV on top of everything else. It can be used for medical workers as a prevention to exposure of HIV in needles, but a shrink is not going to be drawing blood.
There is further an item in this same article with questions about Hassan sending money to someone in Pakistan:
Meanwhile this is likely the penultimate example of the hand-wringing obsession of the typical politically correct leaders:
Also in that Fox News story is another slide show link of his sparse, one room apartment, & minimal contents. He apparently likes spartan white. Most curious of all are some self-prescribed prescription bottles-Tesalon for cough suppression, but another for Combivir to treat HIV. Please tell me he did expose the emergency and hospital workers to HIV on top of everything else. It can be used for medical workers as a prevention to exposure of HIV in needles, but a shrink is not going to be drawing blood.
There is further an item in this same article with questions about Hassan sending money to someone in Pakistan:
There are even stronger criticisms of Hassan by his supervisors and peers during his training. They will have to live with the results of their hesitancy to act on his case.
Meanwhile this is likely the penultimate example of the hand-wringing obsession of the typical politically correct leaders:
I agree with groups asking for her resignation on heels of her earlier incompetence, but she is merely a product of the whole "P.C.' mentality.
StarHalo
Flashaholic
According to Wikipedia, in an undisputed entry:
Move America Forward is a conservative political action group based in California that grew out of the campaign to recall California Governor Gray Davis. Move America Forward seeks to advance many conservative causes by lobbying of politicians at the local, state, and federal levels, through media campaigns and with grass-roots activism. Their tactics have often been confrontational and have sparked controversy.
Move America Forward has referred to those politicians who wish to pull all troops out of Iraq as "cheese-eating surrender monkey". The organization later stated that the term was also intended as an insult to France.
Move America Forward's leader Melanie Morgan and her supporters regularly characterize those who challenge them or oppose the war as "communists" or "far-left". She also regularly invokes free speech and free press — despite Move America Forward's stated aim of "restrict[ing] liberal and activist media". After having appeared once, Producers for PBS's The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer claimed she would never be on the program again.
You hassle me endlessly in your own thread that you're willing to have closed to just restrict sources, and then you post an article from a We-Support-The-Teabaggers/Liberals-Are-Commies "news source"?
Are you serious?!
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jtr1962
Flashaholic
Well, I've known people (mostly neighbor's kids) who have made six figures, lived with their parents not paying rent, and who not only had zero savings, but also five or six figures of credit card debt. Spending the money on cars, gadgets, clothes, gifts, eating all three meals out, etc., it's not at all hard to go through a good salary with little to show for it. Maybe he had some out of control buying obsession? That's actually more common than people like to admit. You buy a lot of junk you don't need, your house gets crowded, you give most of it away or sell it for a fraction of what you paid, and then repeat ad nauseum.
Sadly, we may never know the true motives here for this horrible event. IMO he just snapped under pressure, probably chose the wrong career to begin with. In the final analysis that's usually the real reason mass killings like this occur. And unfortunately, it's also really hard to spot someone who is at the breaking point to prevent things like this from occurring again.
Got stung there a bit did you, and biting back? Of course I'm serious. I quoted www.examiner.com and the essence of those details, no matter who they quoted within the article are well substantiated. I made no endorsement or link to "moveamericaforward.com" which I have never heard of before. This was simply one of the first links that came up on a google search of Napolitano's buffoonery, and I recognized the accuracy of the facts presented. I did not link a call in radio file which you seem to consider a valuable & accurate source and contribution to the facts at Ft. Hood....what did you say....the confirmations will be forthcoming in 24-48 hours? That window had passed. Where's the beef?
Not that your sidebar conversation has anything to do with your Ft. Hood Shooting "Inside the mind of Hassan" and call in radio show unfounded speculatations, but if you question the details referenced about Napolitano's earlier actions, at least take the time to find out that they are well documented.
In case you believe Fox News is also a jaded news source, here is the Washington Post story making it clear, including her notifying law enforcement to be on alert.
In case you believe Fox News and The Washington Post are jaded news sources, here is her non-apology "apology" that got her deeper into her own incompetence on the official Department of Homeland Security's website.
Perhaps you specifically doubt the veracity of the FBI filming ordinary Tea Party Americans who are peacefully exercising their First Ammendment rights, that you also feel the need to insult them with your vulgur sexual innuendo of "Tea Baggers"? Although it may be challenging, do some research first. Where do you find statements at the www.examiner.com source I linked that says liberals are commies?
I could do the same thing regarding her outrageous statements that inflamed Canadian officials, but I have already made it clear the difference between factual events with evidence, and "inside the mind" speculations and hearsay self-agrandisements which gives no benefit to finding out what actually happened at Ft. Hood.
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HELL LIGHT
Banned
Let's put this way, this guys knew exactly what he was doing and basically manipulated the system to work for him since he worked for the U.S military. Trust me. this is just a test run of their future guerrilla warfare here in the U.S and they are checking on how the current administration will react to crisis like this so they will be better prepared next time. Also as part of the PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS IN GUERRILLA WARFARE that strikes FEAR among the mass population in the same time.
dude! i thought you were banned for being a douche on the CPFMP...i guess 2 separate fora...but now you should definitely be banned here as well
Hell Light, seeing more and more of Hassan's connections to known Al Qaeda and other Islamic Terrorist websites, as well as his own statements and actions, I agree they will see this Ft. Hood instance as a new way to recruit and wreak terror from within the USA. That is why it is so important to examine all the connections and facts to discern what has been unique about Hassan, and not paint innocent Islamic followers with this broad brush.
As we have learned more details, there should now be no hesitation on the part of our leaders and officials to hesitate calling an Islamic terrorist an Islamic Terrorist, or to dismiss this event as a criminal law enforcement action, or a simple case of a person with mental illness who snapped. There is already too long of a string of events and actions that take it beyond a psychiatric disease. No doubt that will be an attempted legal defense at trial, however.
As we have learned more details, there should now be no hesitation on the part of our leaders and officials to hesitate calling an Islamic terrorist an Islamic Terrorist, or to dismiss this event as a criminal law enforcement action, or a simple case of a person with mental illness who snapped. There is already too long of a string of events and actions that take it beyond a psychiatric disease. No doubt that will be an attempted legal defense at trial, however.
HELL LIGHT
Banned
Is this a surprise to you???
BTW:Not in support of his terrorist act but this guy is very, very cunning and studied how the legal system works in this country before he strike. Basically he a role model of the future terrorist operation that will strike U.S in the near future.
And yes I am still on CPFMP otherwise how can I take care of business???
Hell Light, don't participate any further in this thread.
I consider the thread topic important. I also consider it very near to our limits. Your very presence in it risks it. It will take a special effort on everyone's part to hold the thread to the limits. Your part, is to remain out of the thread.
I consider the thread topic important. I also consider it very near to our limits. Your very presence in it risks it. It will take a special effort on everyone's part to hold the thread to the limits. Your part, is to remain out of the thread.
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StarHalo
Flashaholic
The title of the thread is Ft. Hood Shootings..
I'm having a sidebar because you harangued me and the thread in general as you felt the news sources might just be about others' tangential and unrelated agendas.
Then you made a post using a source borne of your tangential and unrelated agendas which you specifically highlighted.
I pointed this out, and your response was to provide more links to the tangential and unrelated agendas.
My interest is and has been the integrity and on-topic diversity of the thread; I felt your overbearing and near-fanatical drive for only "trusted" sources, as defined by you, was generally unprofessional and put a burden on the thread. But attempting to discuss it is clearly only making it worse, so I will let it slide, in the interest of what is otherwise a very good thread.
We return you to Fort Hood..
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