Ft. Hood Shootings - Take 2

[LuxLuthor]

Starhalo, since this is not the Underground, I will endeavor to keep this in line and respectful--as both of us know we should. As Empath said this is a serious and important discussion. My only issue has been trying to separate what we know as facts from speculation and theoretical fiction, even if plausible. I believe unsubstantiated opinions cloud "the truth," and inflame passions more than they already are.

I will also admit that having served 4 years in the US Navy, and having lost some very close friends in the 9/11 attack, that this shooting is extremely poignant in that it is looking more and more like it could have been prevented. To me it feels like an unhealed wound has been ripped open all over again. I cannot imagine what the families and servicemembers close to the tragedy are feeling as they learn more about this Doctor Terror's history.

My purpose in bringing up the "politically correct/Napolitano" issue is because the failure to take preventive actions against Hassan to some degree increasingly appears to be at the root of this horror, and we need to back off everything being "P.C." for the greater good of detecting, reporting, and stopping more of these events from happening.

In any case we should all be on the same page when terrorism happens to anyone, anywhere in the world, so I apologize if my trying to seek clarity of events resulted in being overbearing or obnoxious.

 

[Empath]

Lupara, your efforts to discuss the "truth" of Islam and offering links to controversial political leanings is not what this thread is about.

Such is what we urge you to take to the Underground. Your posts were removed here. Feel free to express the opinions there.

 

[Patriot]

News updates seems to have slowed quite a bit. I suppose it's probably only natural that things become a more secretive as the investigation progresses.




New posters to this thread, please read the entire thread before posting here.

 

[StarHalo]

His lawyers report that Hasan appears to be paralyzed from the waist down, with severe pain in his hands.

More of his classmates are coming forward with stories. From CNN:

His presentations for school were often laced with extremist Muslim views, one source said.
"Is your allegiance to Sharia [Islamic] law or the United States?" students once challenged Hasan, the source said.
"Sharia law," the source says Hasan responded.
The incident was corroborated by another doctor who was present.
The source also recalled an instance in which Hasan was asked if the U.S. Constitution was a brilliant document, to which Hasan replied, "No, not particularly."

Even though Hasan earned his medical degree and residency, some of his fellow students believed that he "didn't have the intellect" to be in the program and was not academically rigorous in his coursework.
Hasan "was not fit to be in the military, let alone in the mental health profession," this classmate told CNN. "No one in class would ever have referred a patient to him, or trusted him with anything."
The first classmate echoed this sentiment.
Hasan was "coddled, accommodated and pushed through that masters of public health despite substandard performance," the classmate said. He was "put in the fellowship program because they didn't know what to do with him."

 

[McGizmo]

Although it is just my opinion and some would disagree, Hasan failed humanity as a human being. I don't accept the teachings of the radical jihad and whether he was a true believer or just confused beyond reason is beside the point. He did what he did and is accountable for it. Some of the information being provided here in the thread is probably no better than hearsay but it seems to have enough ring of truth to be plausible at the very least. If this information provides a profile or map for warning signs, then what? Is it reasonable to hope to avoid a similar situation in the future and if yes, at what cost?

In addition to questioning responsibilities and accountabilities, this incident also provides opportunities. I can only hope for the best to come from it but I have my doubts.

I view Hasan as a cancer in humanity and I don't consider him an isolated instance, unfortunately.

 

[StarHalo]

If this information provides a profile or map for warning signs, then what? Is it reasonable to hope to avoid a similar situation in the future and if yes, at what cost?

Therein lies the rub - picture yourself as an NSA agent who has before you transcripts of all of Hasan's communications, his profile, surveillance data, a giant file composed of everything gathered about Hasan for many years. The profile probably goes something like this: Overweight loner, goes along to get along in career, standoffish extremist views, otherwise benign. All his communications with questionable subjects are just both parties agreeing with one another about the usual anti-Western sentiments. His coworkers dislike him but his superiors give positive reviews. In a society that measures contribution monetarily, he's done very well as a professional.

There's nothing criminal in any of it, he's just another little dog with a big bark who never bites, and it's been that way for many years. So now what?

The response that keeps coming up is "That definitely should have raised some red flags," but the fact that you have the data is the raised red flag, Hasan is a large collection of red flags that's being observed 24/7. The potential problem has been acknowledged, it's under intense non-stop scrutiny. But all this is doing is turning up more of the same data; he's still spouting extremist views, still on his career track that should be damaged by his behavior but isn't.

And this cycle drags on for years, until he finally does something that goes completely against his profile, something that's wildly unpredictable in what was an otherwise very predictable subject, a boring subject, who suddenly commits the greatest act of violence on a military base in American history.

So if you were an NSA agent on November 4th, with the entire file for Hasan's life on your desk, what would you, could you, have done?

 

[RAGE CAGE]

So if you were an NSA agent on November 4th, with the entire file for Hasan's life on your desk, what would you, could you, have done?

I would have documented everything in triplicate, informed my supervisor, share the information with any other intelligence agency that would be interested. I would continue to do so on a regular basis so I could have the satisfaction of the "I told you so" moment.
Read up on the Hawala System- the informal way used to move money by a vast number of Muslims to impeded tracking.
We all still remeber that the CIA provided funding, training and equipment to the Mujahadeen and OBL during the Soviet occupation of Afganistan don't we?

 

[Patriot]

The response that keeps coming up is "That definitely should have raised some red flags," but the fact that you have the data is the raised red flag, Hasan is a large collection of red flags that's being observed 24/7. The potential problem has been acknowledged, it's under intense non-stop scrutiny. But all this is doing is turning up more of the same data; he's still spouting extremist views, still on his career track that should be damaged by his behavior but isn't.

And this cycle drags on for years, until he finally does something that goes completely against his profile, something that's wildly unpredictable in what was an otherwise very predictable subject, a boring subject, who suddenly commits the greatest act of violence on a military base in American history.

So if you were an NSA agent on November 4th, with the entire file for Hasan's life on your desk, what would you, could you, have done?

Admittedly, probably little or nothing as an NSA guy but that's not the only authoritative party that a red flag would have come up for. It's possible that had he no longer been in the military this crime wouldn't have happened. I just don't understand the PC politics in our military or why it's exists. You're supposed to be part of a team in the armed forces. If you're not going to be part of the team or your ideology goes against what the job entails, get out! .... and push those out who aren't team players. Hasan wasn't a team player.

Regarding whether or not he hauled off and "did something against his profile" or not, I'm not so sure. I say, where there's a will, there's a way. He had obviously been harboring these feelings for a long time. What are signs of levels of progression to the next step that would be abnormal for his profile? Radical business cards, extremist contacts, hateful speech directed to troops? At some point he jumped the gap from opposing viewpoint to hateful outward verbal expressions. Then from hateful expression to an act of violence. I would maintain that he showed many of the characteristics which lead up to the first violent act. His first violent act just happened to involve murder and he may have figured, 'why just stop with one?'

As Lux stated in the other thread, those involved with him professionally bear some of the responsibility whether directly or indirectly. If it was indirectly in that superiors were constrained by a bunch of PC red tape then we ought to be looking at the way we handle business at the military admin level. If his superiors just turned a blind eye because they didn't want to deal with him, then I think they should probably be dealt with as any employee who fails to do their job.

 

[LUPARA]

Empath,

Will take your advice. I should have posted that "link" in the underground. Please allow me to clarify: I see it as the responsibility of all inquiring minds to inform ourselves of the truth of these matters, objectively; pleasant or unpleasant. That was my only intent; and not to push some imagined political agenda with some "controversial" link. Point taken though, and I appreciate the that moderating is hard work sometimes; didn't intend to cause you any grief there.

 

[StarHalo]

Possible answer to my NSA question you didn't think of: Officials above Hasan at Walter Reed were actively scheming for ways to get him kicked out of the Army; one idea was Army Regulation 600-9, a 57-page rule dictating height-to-weight and body fat guidelines - they were going to get him discharged for being fat. But a higher committee noted that you must give the subject the opportunity to lose the weight, and Hasan, with all the resources of an Army officer plus a pharmacist, undoubtedly would have. So the idea was dumped.

 

[LUPARA]

Reminder:
9/11 - Flight 93: Last words from cockpit; "Allahu Akbar !"

Nidal Hasan - Last words before murdering 13 and wounding twice that many; "Allahu Akbar !"

Am I missing something?

 

[SFG2Lman]

first a little tidbit, NSA NEVER under any circumstances spies on americans, thats FBI territory, and second, hindsight is always 20/20 we have the obvious outcome now, but the cold hard truth is that in the military people bounce around so much that building a profile with enough data to prosecute, is impossible, because its just that, hearsay, and even if we had kicked him out of the military, he would have undoubtedly committed the same act against civilians instead of us who have volunteered our lives for the country,

the sad fact is that the military has become so PC that it has hamstrung itself, we have to win wars "nicely" and win the hearts and minds while we're at it. That being said, one can't kick him out for his views, the constitution guarantees that. And violating that would be more of a tragedy than what happened at Ft. Hood because all we fight for would then be meaningless.

 

[LUPARA]

SFG2Lman,
Well put; it's the Constitution that is being attacked.
PC does nothing but constrain and confuse people, (they're uncertain what to do); therefore leadership is needed to spell it out and point the way.
Thanks for the clear thinking there SFG2Lman.

 

[McGizmo]

......and even if we had kicked him out of the military, he would have undoubtedly committed the same act against civilians instead of us who have volunteered our lives for the country,

....

Perhaps you are right in this comment. At one point as the information was coming forth I considered the possibility that Hasan, because of his religious beliefs, felt he was being forced to engage an enemy which he felt was not his enemy. His ultimate response was to escalate his involvement and respond as he did and against those he held accountable for his predicament. He had the option of taking out his jihad against civilians but chose to loose it on the base instead. Is there any significance in this? I don't know. :shrug:

With giving stuff to neighbors as he did, there seemed to be some humanity left in him that went beyond recognizing only those of his ilk as having any "value". Were all non Muslims his enemy or was he more focused than that?

I am glad that some people have him figured out. I know I will never understand someone like him or fathom their crimes against humanity. If he considered the US military as his enemy, that is something I might at least understand but certainly not agree with. I will never understand how someone can embrace some higher being and then take human life, supposedly on their behalf.

 

[StarHalo]

first a little tidbit, NSA NEVER under any circumstances spies on americans

In San Francisco in 2002, some technicians at AT&T were notified that the NSA was coming to do interviews for a special project that would take place at the Folsom Street building location. The Folsom building is one of several "internet switching stations" in the US featuring a giant fiber-optic backbone through which nearly all international internet traffic flows. On a tour of the building in 2003, one technician pointed out a particular door on the sixth floor, noting, "That's the new secret room and only one guy is allowed in there." Though the techs knew it wasn't right, there were cutbacks going on and no one wanted to put their job in jeopardy, so nothing was said about it beyond that. Some time later, technician Mark Klein was under floor panels on the seventh floor troubleshooting the network/cables, when he noticed a splitter on the main network line - someone had deliberately installed a connection that was making a copy of every single bit of international internet data, and running it down to a room on the sixth floor - the "one guy" room. A technician Klein was taking over a job for had schematics and parts lists for what was in the room, most notably several racks of high-speed communications analysis computers that could pick out red-flagged keywords and make a note of them. All international internet communications going through AT&T's Folsom branch were under 24/7 full-spectrum surveillance in this one room.

Klein noted that one of the "employees" who worked in the room at one time showed him some keys hanging from a chain under his shirt, "And he started saying 'this one is for San Diego' and 'this one is for Seattle..'"

Because of a class-action lawsuit filed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation in 2006, this is all now a matter of public record; you can search for "AT&T spying", "611 Folsom Street", "Room 641A", etc.

 

[StarHalo]

He had the option of taking out his jihad against civilians but chose to loose it on the base instead. Is there any significance in this?

His religious beliefs state that you can only die a martyr if you are killed in war against the enemy - so just killing random people isn't an option if you want to be righteous, it must be against enemy soldiers in battle. This is probably why he opted for mere firearms and not something more immediately destructive, so God would consider it a "fair fight", and give Hasan a hero's welcome to heaven.

 

[McGizmo]

Thanks for the insight StarHalo. It seems that Hasan's motivation then was not the same as those involved in 9/11 or perhaps he limited his perception of who the enemy was compared to those terrorists involved in 9/11. This might be thin ice so please don't bother venturing out on it on my behalf.

 

[StarHalo]

It seems that Hasan's motivation then was not the same as those involved in 9/11 or perhaps he limited his perception of who the enemy was compared to those terrorists involved in 9/11.

You have the general gist of it; the 9/11 attackers viewed themselves as soldiers in a war with the US as a whole, so a full-scale military-type strike on locations critical to the enemy (and the enemy's morale) was ideal. Though there would be collateral damage, the importance of the attack to their side would be so great that martyrdom would be guaranteed.

 

[jahxman]

SFG2Lman,
Well put; it's the Constitution that is being attacked.
PC does nothing but constrain and confuse people, (they're uncertain what to do); therefore leadership is needed to spell it out and point the way.
Thanks for the clear thinking there SFG2Lman.

Just lost me there Lupara - SFG2Lman's point about the constitution was that it guarantees the right of freedom of expression, and Hasan's statements and beliefs by themselves couldn't be used to boot him because of it.

I didn't read anything in SFG2Lman's post about the constitution being attacked. This nosensical statement and your earlier post seem likely to derail this discussion and get this thread closed as well, something I'd like to avoid.

 

[LuxLuthor]

I know I will never understand someone like him or fathom their crimes against humanity...I will never understand how someone can embrace some higher being and then take human life, supposedly on their behalf.

This is true and seems bewildering until you look back through history and see how many millions of followers commit unspeakable atrociites in the name of religion, political regime, power, money, or inspired by a charismatic leader. Many of them are devoutly religious and able to compartmentalize their abuses.