"I had a flashlight but it was dead"paraphrased quote George Zimmerman

[EnduringEagle]

Not quite. Quite honestly, this is a thread topic that would be best discussed on the Underground, but since it's here:

The Stand Your Ground law is, in my opinion, quite a necessary law. When one is attacked, one should not be expected to be required to tuck tail and run, especially when one has the means to defend themselves. The SYG law allows for the common-sense legal defense that you were met with violence outside your home, and because of this, you felt the need to defend yourself with counter-violence. Mr. Zimmerman shot Martin once, and only once. His testimony matches that of several witnesses-from-afar, that Martin had him on the ground, on his back, and was punching him and slamming his head into the ground. Records show that Martin was bleeding from the back of the head at the scene, and that he had facial bruising such as one would get from being punched repeatedly. Fists are quite deadly, and there has been more than one case where a fist fight has resulted in the death of one of the parties involved.

So Zimmerman, having followed Martin, to determine what was going on, and keep track of his whereabouts to inform the police when they eventually arrived, was met with physical violence from a physically aggressive teenager. [Backstory: according to reports, this community had suffered a large increase in the number of break-ins in the last months. A neighbor noting suspicious activity and following up on it, while contacting the police is not a bad thing] Placed in a situation that was further escalated, Zimmerman shot Martin, killing him.

The whole situation is FUBAR, and the media, as usual, is not reporting all information, or all information without bias, which is definitely not helping the situation. Martin was not, as the media likes to portray, a nice, sweet and caring youth. He was a tall, strong and well built "yoot" who had been in trouble at school on multiple instances for his antics. And zimmerman is not the neo-nazi he was originally portrayed to be, either.

Also:
-Zimmerman was not told explicitly to remain in his vehicle, it was reported that way, but the dispatcher actually only suggested remaining in his vehicle.


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We are a nation of laws, with a legal/justice system meant to interpret and investigate. This system must take its time, noting that public scrutiny will highlight their actions. In the end, I cna only hope that the court of public opinion, which requires no basis of fact, does not affect the investigation and trial proceedings.

+1 on this. I live in FL and the SYG law is not a license to kill and these problems are very infrequent. Retreating in the face of peril does not work. Think of it in the reverse. At what point in time is NOT retreating satisfactory? Some one breaks into your house, you try to retreat. The person starts to pistol whip you, you try to retreat. You are half unconscious and he starts raping your daughter, you try to retreat?? The laws in NY, NJ, MA are preposterous. Having statutes on the books that favor the violent criminal just produces more of what you don't want. Bottom line: Zimmerman was attacked, his life was in peril and he defended himself. It is completely event driven and that is how the laws are written in and around the country. The kid had opportunity, proximity, means and exercised a disparity of force. That is all the law requires. Zimmerman was in fear of his life and took action. Do not buy into the media circus.

 

[EnduringEagle]

We already know all that, it's public-domain data covered thoroughly on the Wikipedia page on the subject; none of this takes into account what would happened if Zimmerman had simply stayed in his car, as his neighborhood watch training instructed him to do, as the 911 dispatcher instructed him to do, as common sense would have instructed him to do. When I see someone suspicious in my neighborhood, my instinct is not to abandon my car and initiate a foot pursuit - if the suspicious person actually is dangerous, there are too many very negative outcomes that could come from that. Someone who not only owns a gun but has a concealed carry permit for it should know that inherently.

Sorry, this is tantamount to voodoo and fortune telling. Zimmerman has every right to get out of the car. He has every right to be in that public space. He has every right to walk down the street unmolested. He has every right to help suppress crime in his neighborhood and so should you. This is the kind of logic that says that someone's car got a flat in the wrong side of town, she was raped and killed while changing the tire and morons say that she deserved it because she should not have been there.

 

[nbp]

But if the police had already been notified and were on their way, what would be wrong with simply observing from a safe distance, and keeping the dispatcher informed of any changes in events or behavior? Had he done so, no one would be dead. The police could have done the questioning and taken appropriate action. Had he not initiated contact with the young man to begin with, there would have been no reason to "stand his ground". He did his duty by being observant and alerting the police to the "suspicious" activity. Approaching the person was a bad decision. Flashlights would have made no difference.

Part of keeping yourself safe is also knowing when to stay away from a situation or place, whether you have the "right" to be there or not. That's common sense.

 

[braddy]

Zimmerman never initiated any contact, he was observing from a safe distance and in fact was returning to his truck when attacked.

Criminals attack people and try to kill them, people are not responsible for being attacked because they were outdoors in their own neighborhood.

We cannot become the kind of people that wring our hands over how to keep everyone indoors and away from the bad guys, and cast blame on victims of crimes.

Sometimes when a bad guy meets his end while attacking a good guy who takes him out, it serves to save a future life.

 

[JacobJones]

Braddy, who's to say Zimmerman was the victim? Maybe Martin saw Zimmerman as a threat and exercised the stand your ground law in turn forcing Zimmerman to defend himself. Also remember that history is written by the winners (Zimmerman), therefore Zimmermans statement cannot be assumed to be reliable. Just something to think about

 

[fishndad]

Braddy have you made any attempt to answer the OPs question.
Or are you too focused on catigorizing someone based on grills, tattoos or weather or not they smoke the godd stuff.

 

[braddy]

For that to work, Zimmerman would have had to attack Trayvon and all the evidence indicates that didn't happen, and it doesn't make sense at any level.

For one thing it is pretty clear that Trayvon came up to Zimmerman and from there the evidence grows that he came up on Zimmerman to attack him.

Zimmerman's wounds on the back of his head, the broken nose , the grass stains on the back of his clothes, the skinned knuckle on Trayvon's fist, and no evidence of having been punched, and presumably the angle of the single shot and it's proximity of inches, all indicate that Zimmerman's description is accurate, and that he was a victim of a vicious, life threatening attack.

Most men who are armed would want to maintain distance from a threat, not get belly to belly with them, especially when the threat has several inches of height on them.

 

[braddy]

Thanks for the hostility, are you posting to all of those commenting on the attack, including your own posts which take a different view than me on the attack?

Has the OP posted again, do you think that anyone disagrees with your conclusion that a flashlight is meangingless in the Trayvon attack?

 

[fishndad]

Your welcome

 

[qwertyydude]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this as it was made very clear early on in the fallout after the attack. The 911 operator told Zimmerman specifically not to pursue Martin and let the cops handle it. By specifically disregarding that order that casts a very suspicious light on Zimmerman for actively pursuing Martin. That isn't standing your ground, that's hunting a human being.

 

[fishndad]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this as it was made very clear early on in the fallout after the attack. The 911 operator told Zimmerman specifically not to pursue Martin and let the cops handle it. By specifically disregarding that order that casts a very suspicious light on Zimmerman for actively pursuing Martin. That isn't standing your ground, that's hunting a human being.

I mentioned it and that was my basis for determining that weather or not Zimmerman had a working flashlight he was determined to confront Martin and things went wrong from there.

Thats the only opinions i have formed thus far.
i could speculate that zimmerman was getting his butt handed to him and needed to pull a gun.I could also speculate that martin was a thug and attack him from behind after zimmerman ask him a few questions and walked away.

If a community watch person drove up behind me and got out of there vehicle and started to ? my motives i would only answer them politely to 1 or mabey 2 before i told them to BLEEP off.
This is the USA and i lost 3uncles in WWII and served myself.

POW/MIA are acronyms meening freedom to me.

 

[braddy]

The hunter was shot after attacking and trying to beat to death a neighborhood watch captain who had been observing the stranger.

The operator said "we don't need you to do that" Zimmerman said "OK" and shortly after that Zimmerman is fighting for his life after being attacked.

911 OPERATOR: Are you following him?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: OK, we don`t need you to do that.

ZIMMERMAN: OK.​

 

[fishndad]

The hunter was shot after attacking and trying to beat to death a neighborhood watch captain who had been observing the stranger.

The operator said "we don't need you to do that" Zimmerman said "OK" and shortly after that Zimmerman is fighting for his life after being attacked.

911 OPERATOR: Are you following him?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: OK, we don`t need you to do that.

ZIMMERMAN: OK.​

How did Martin get Zimmerman out of his vehicle?

 

[braddy]

Getting out of one's vehicle is not a crime, or anything negative, and 911 operators are not in charge of citizens nor on the scene.

Being attacked and beaten to death is a cause for self defense.

Getting out of a car was fine, observing suspicious people, or anyone is fine, trying to beat people to death is psychotic and criminal, and we are lucky that the victim survived the ordeal.

 

[nbp]

Getting out of one's vehicle is not a crime, or anything negative, and 911 operators are not in charge of citizens nor on the scene.

Being attacked and beaten to death is a cause for self defense.

Getting out of a car was fine, observing suspicious people, or anyone is fine, trying to beat people to death is psychotic and criminal, and we are lucky that the victim survived the ordeal.

You're missing the point dude! If he had stayed in the car, and NOT pursued the kid, as the police apparently TOLD him not to, there wouldn't have BEEN a fight, and NO ONE would be dead. He very well could have been defending himself at the point he shot the kid, but it NEVER should have gotten to that point because he shouldn't have ever confronted him. If he had stayed at a distance, he wouldn't have been in situation where violence was necessary. The police were on their way, THEY are the ones who are trained to do that, not some gun-toting cowboy thinking he's gonna go show some thug what's up. Let the police deal with the kid if he's doing something wrong. He did his part by reporting it, and that's all he should have done.

 

[fishndad]

How bout them Steelers?

LOL, sorry this is fun i have to say.
Although the subject matter very serious.
You are right Braddy all of your points are accurate and in line with the American spirit.
But i think that Zimmerman made a poor choice.
He put himself in danger thats counter to everything your tought.
I also have a Conceal Carry Permit for Ohio.And i trained in the service to defend.
And i lose no sleep when a criminals rights are violated.

 

[braddy]

You are missing the point, Zimmerman is not guilty of murder, he was attacked and being killed, and he got off a shot while on his back and the assailant on top of him pounding his head into concrete.

Zimmerman is being tried for murder, and we all know that he is innocent.

The fact that he was anywhere on planet earth is meaningless, he was right, his activity was right, everything was right, suddenly he was on his back with a broken nose, and being beaten into bloodiness and soon to be unconsciousness.

Rape, robbery, murder, is not the fault of the victims because the victim did not stay off the streets, or got out of his car.

We should all be thankful that the good guy survived his injuries, and then we should all panic that he is being tried for murder.

 

[mvyrmnd]

You're missing the point dude! If he had stayed in the car, and NOT pursued the kid, as the police apparently TOLD him not to, there wouldn't have BEEN a fight, and NO ONE would be dead. He very well could have been defending himself at the point he shot the kid, but it NEVER should have gotten to that point because he shouldn't have ever confronted him. If he had stayed at a distance, he wouldn't have been in situation where violence was necessary. The police were on their way, THEY are the ones who are trained to do that, not some gun-toting cowboy thinking he's gonna go show some thug what's up. Let the police deal with the kid if he's doing something wrong. He did his part by reporting it, and that's all he should have done.

+1

 

[fyrstormer]

It appears that the neighborhood watch Captain was attacked by the grill wearing, tattooed, stoned, Trayvon, who while showing evidence of delivering blows with his fist, showed zero evidence of having received a blow from Zimmerman, anywhere on his body.

Zimmerman was badly bloodied with wounds on the back of his head, and a broken nose, all fitting the description of the attack he claims that Trayvon made on him, and banging his head on the ground, the shot was supposedly delivered as Zimmerman was on his back being beaten by Trayvon, which the evidence will easily determine.

The neighborhood watchman appears to be alive because he was armed. There is no place in the public space where you are allowed to make a deadly attack on someone because they have been observing you.


See Rule #3 Do not Hot Link images – Norm

None of that would've happened if he hadn't confronted a kid walking home with a bag of Skittles in the first place. Yes Trayvon hit Zimmerman, and you would too, if a strange person started following you in his car and then got out and started accosting you in the middle of the night.

 

[nbp]

The issue here, I think, is that you, braddy, are confusing what SHOULD be, and what IS.

Should people be able to go for a walk anywhere on earth in safety and without fear of criminals? Absolutely!!!! I agree!!!

But that isn't the case, is it? So people with good sense and regard for their life stay away from potential sources of danger, wherever it may come from, whether it is in the form of not walking on the interstate, or not taunting aggressive animals, or not working on live electrical wires, or not confronting possibly dangerous people, even if they happen to be in your vicinity. It doesn't make you less of a person if you report something to the proper authorities and let them handle it without getting physically involved if it could mean your safety. That's called good sense.

Was this guy within his legal rights? Maybe so. Did he make some really dumb decisions? Sure did.