OE Vehicle Lighting That Makes You Go "Ugh"

[N8N]

The ones with the rear turns way down in the bumper confuse me. I always expect those to be the rear fog lamps.
I like to think that higher-mounted turn signals are better for when the hazard lights are activated-- it gives much more visibility from a distance to be high up. The bumper mounted ones might not be so visible at great distances.

I'm trying to think of an example other than Land Rover... are there any? It is a spectacularly silly setup, I'll grant you.

One of my big "ughs" is rear turn signals with a clear lens and a colored bulb. Washout happens quite a bit on those, it seems. Would a DupliColor MetalCast Yellow treatment be suitable for the outer lens of such a turn signal, to help mitigate the washout/potential phantom signal?

But they used to work fine... I think the issue is the lack of proper amber bulbs. I don't remember what the actual issue is but back in the day amber bulbs would maintain their amber color throughout their useful lifespan. Then something required for proper amber tinted glass (cadmium maybe?) was deemed environmentally verboten and we started to see late model vehicles with seemingly white colored turn signals all over the place...

As a person who actually owns a vehicle with clear rear turn signal lenses, I'm wondering - do the chrome tinted bulbs maintain their color longer or is the appeal of them simply getting rid of the "egg yolk" appearance of the light when not lit?

 

[-Virgil-]

I'm trying to think of an example other than Land Rover... are there any?

Kia Sportage mentioned further up the thread.

I think the issue is the lack of proper amber bulbs. I don't remember what the actual issue is but back in the day amber bulbs would maintain their amber color throughout their useful lifespan. Then something required for proper amber tinted glass (cadmium maybe?) was deemed environmentally verboten and we started to see late model vehicles with seemingly white colored turn signals all over the place...

That's a different matter. Non-Cadmium amber glass exists, but it's more expensive than the Cadmium type, so bulb makers largely went to dip-coating instead. The coatings (from the reputable makers) have improved over the years, but you're right, they tend to fade and flake off.

But that's not what Alaric was talking about. Clear-lens/colored-bulb signal lights are more subject to sun washout than colored-lens signal lights. Read about it here.

do the chrome tinted bulbs maintain their color longer

I assume you're talking about the legitimate ones (Osram Diadem, Philips SilverVision), not the numerous imitations that don't put out even a fraction of the required amount of light. Yes, the legitimate ones maintain their color over the long haul.

 

[N8N]

That's a different matter. Non-Cadmium amber glass exists, but it's more expensive than the Cadmium type, so bulb makers largely went to dip-coating instead. The coatings (from the reputable makers) have improved over the years, but you're right, they tend to fade and flake off.

But that's not what Alaric was talking about. Clear-lens/colored-bulb signal lights are more subject to sun washout than colored-lens signal lights. Read about it here.

I assume you're talking about the legitimate ones (Osram Diadem, Philips SilverVision), not the numerous imitations that don't put out even a fraction of the required amount of light. Yes, the legitimate ones maintain their color over the long haul.

Interesting. Never put much thought into that effect nor honestly have really noticed it, but good to know.

I wonder if the silver bulbs would help mitigate this effect as well by making the reflected light appear more sunlight-like and not amber due to the presence of an amber colored bulb?

Yes I was referring to the two exact bulbs you mention; they actually have factory part numbers for my car (BMW E92) although my car is not so equipped. I'd thought to replace them with the silver ones whenever replacement became necessary as I think it makes for a neater appearance, but didn't know if there were any real safety advantages and/or drawbacks. Obviously at least BMW considers them to be compliant with all the pertinent regulations, however...

 

[Alaric Darconville]

I wonder if the silver bulbs would help mitigate this effect as well by making the reflected light appear more sunlight-like and not amber due to the presence of an amber colored bulb?

It might still make it look like a lit lamp-- and then the observer would have to tell what it means. (And then it could look like really annoying sparkly glare, as well as still making it hard to tell if the lamp is actually lighting up or not.)

I really think the best solution, as un-awesome looking as it may be, is the standard pillow-optic lens that all but eliminates phantom signals and seems to be more visible in other less-than-ideal conditions.

 

[N8N]

It (silver-coated amber bulb) might still make it look like a lit lamp-- and then the observer would have to tell what it means. (And then it could look like really annoying sparkly glare, as well as still making it hard to tell if the lamp is actually lighting up or not.)

I really think the best solution, as un-awesome looking as it may be, is the standard pillow-optic lens that all but eliminates phantom signals and seems to be more visible in other less-than-ideal conditions.

True, but replacing a bulb is something I'm going to have to do anyway eventually, while engineering new lighting assemblies on my car wasn't on my things to do list

 

[Alaric Darconville]

engineering new lighting assemblies on my car wasn't on my things to do list

Well, it *shouldn't* be.

If only the vehicle designers would look at the available data and see that *they* need to do the reëngineering.

 

[-Virgil-]

N8N, I think there is some substance to your idea that the "chrome" bulbs might help with false signal appearance created by outside (sun) light.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

N8N, I think there is some substance to your idea that the "chrome" bulbs might help with false signal appearance created by outside (sun) light.

I'm just thinking that light, passing through a clear lens and bouncing off the reflector, could make a phantom signal no matter what the color. I guess if it's also passing through the bulb, that could give it the amber-like color, and perhaps the chrome-colored bulb will break it up more, and make it look less like a bulb is lit.

 

[reppans]

The slow PWM taillights on late model Cadillacs - as a flashaholic, I can easily see it and find it annoying/distracting.

 

[-Virgil-]

I'm just thinking that light, passing through a clear lens and bouncing off the reflector, could make a phantom signal no matter what the color. I guess if it's also passing through the bulb, that could give it the amber-like color, and perhaps the chrome-colored bulb will break it up more, and make it look less like a bulb is lit.

There are two phenomena to keep track of: phantom signals (external light makes the signal appear as though it is internally lit, creating the false impression of a lit-up turn signal or stop light, etc.) and signal washout (external light overpowers the signal's own light, making it invisible).

 

[Alaric Darconville]

The slow PWM taillights on late model Cadillacs - as a flashaholic, I can easily see it and find it annoying/distracting.

Pretty much ANYONE can easily see that. It's certainly weird!

 

[Alaric Darconville]

There are two phenomena to keep track of: phantom signals (external light makes the signal appear as though it is internally lit, creating the false impression of a lit-up turn signal or stop light, etc.) and signal washout (external light overpowers the signal's own light, making it invisible).

True.

I was thinking "false signal appearance" more in the terms of "phantom signal" with respect to what effect the chromed bulbs may have. I really don't know if the chrome bulbs will mitigate signal washout.

I feel the need, the need for data. But getting meaningful data from a small subset of vehicles that a) have the clear lens/colored bulb combo and b) are using the "chrome look" bulb would be pretty difficult.

I do notice that the rear appearance of certain Prius models is strange-- the clear-lens, very silvery-shiny lamps that then light up all nice and red as the stop lamps they are. It seems that if not a phantom signal, but just basically distracting glints of glare, occurs, it's not too bad a design. I can't say that I myself have felt blinded by the sunlight flashing off of them, nor have I noticed any signal washout with them.

 

[N8N]

well, a study could be done similar to the one already posted... you'd have to limit the lights to ones for which the chrome bulbs are available though. I know they're available for PY21W style bulbs... and while we're at it maybe do a back to back with the Philips LED modules? then back to back with standard PY21W bulbs, Silver Visions, LEDs, and the same light with an amber lens and a regular clear bulb. Probably need to capture the light spectrum of reflected light to see if the PY21W colors the light amber to a significant enough degree to make the reflected light able to be confused with a legit signal, as well as recording the intensity.

COME ON PEOPLE WE CAN DO THIS who wants to write the grant proposal?

 

[-Virgil-]

The slow PWM taillights on late model Cadillacs - as a flashaholic, I can easily see it and find it annoying/distracting.

It's called the "string of beads" effect, and it's present on a lot of pulsewidth-modulated vehicle lights, not just Cadillacs. The PWM frequency was around 100Hz through about 2008; more recent vehicles have moved to around 200Hz, which helps, but the effect still is visible under some conditions until you get to around 350-400Hz. Unfortunately, as PWM frequency increases, so do problems with EMI/RFI. That can be handled (shielding, etc.) but it costs money, and the automakers don't like spending money.

 

[Fourinchdragslicks]

PnP HID.... if you want HID, put projectors in, designed for the lamp. I wish LEOs would ticket all of the blinding illegal PnP lights

 

[-Virgil-]

PnP HID.... if you want HID, put projectors in, designed for the lamp.

It is a common misunderstanding that a "projector retrofit" is an OK thing to do. That is not the case.

 

[alpg88]

The slow PWM taillights on late model Cadillacs - as a flashaholic, I can easily see it and find it annoying/distracting.

i never seen it with my eyes, but when i go over my dashcam footage, i see it all the time.

 

[Franco]

(And with Oklahoma State Law saying that people in pickup trucks are required to also turn on their fog lamps while towing, and otherwise drive like total jerks1​, everyone in the little cars suffers.)
1​Not actual Oklahoma State Law

The couple of times that I've driven into Oklahoma were actually quite a nice driving experience. Must have been lucky.

UNECE signatories, headlamp aim *IS* linked to headlamp mounting height, which helps even it out a little bit. Still, a tailgating truck is probably still going to fill your Miata's rear-view mirror with glaring goodness.

That's probably unavoidable, but every little bit helps. I know that I tend to regard glare as a bigger issue than it really is, but it just makes for such unpleasant nighttime driving...

I think that I'm going to add the lack of automatic headlight leveling on high output units as an "ugh".

 

[Steve K]

..... Unfortunately, as PWM frequency increases, so do problems with EMI/RFI. That can be handled (shielding, etc.) but it costs money, and the automakers don't like spending money.

as a guy who has helped lighting manufacturers fix their EMC problems, the emissions issues are associated with the speed at which the lights turn on and off and not so much with the frequency at which it occurs. Switching power supplies are a big problem for lighting suppliers too... most of them haven't been doing electronics for long, and haven't developed some of these skill sets.

 

[Lightdoctor]

Maybe this has been covered elsewhere, but I'd like to know what the purpose of PWM lighting is? To me, it defies logic. Why would I want AC like power in a car?