Overtaking vs passing

[idleprocess]

I've always said that there are more people "riding" in their cars than there are actually driving them.

Boy howdy is that the case. And the following seems to sum it up:


Far and away the most exciting vehicle I've ever been in was a ~1990 VW Cabriolet convertible. Its performance was mediocre but even at a mere 20MPH one was forcibly reminded of the fleeting nature of existence such was its lack of structural integrity, alarming creaks and groans, multiple-choice stance upon recovery from any notable form of suspension travel, otherwise lack of meaningful encapsulation of the passenger area, and as a taller fella I could not safely drive it since the top of the windshield was nearly at eye level.

Obviously repeat exposure without incident would reduce these fears. But I doubt one would ever feel as safe in said vehicle as a design some 4 decades newer, which the average motorist seems less inclined to properly operate. And while I'm not advocating for increasing danger on the roads, perhaps the perception needs to increase. While I have appreciation for the difference between seeing and perceiving things, my sense is that a growing slice of the driving public just can't be arsed to pay enough attention to the road, thus many things they see aren't given enough attention to be perceived and thus acted upon. While it would be madness to increase actual danger while driving, perhaps the perception of danger needs to increase since all the PR campaigns in the world aren't going to do squat.

 

[bykfixer]

One day my son bought a nicer, newer Honda Prelude than his first one, a 1991 model. I went with him to buy it and volunteered to drive the 91 home. The car was low to the ground from the factory and the seat was low as well. On the interstate I could hear sand and pebbles hitting the under side of the car and it gave me the impression of driving a go kart with windows and doors. It was the best thrill I'd had in a while but I couldn't wait to get off of the interstate. Once we reached a twisty back road was when I was having fun.

A while later I bought my own Prelude but the only time I drove it on the interstate was to set the belts on a new set of tires. I drove it 50 miles away from the big city on a Sunday morning. After that it never went on the interstate. Too many crazies out there and being so low to the ground leaves my old dried up slow reacting carcass feeling might vulnerable.

 

[alpg88]

Good info for vast majority of USA, but in nyc all rules are out of a window, in real driving in nyc right lane is the fastest lane, left line is not for passing, some people drive below SL in that line and would not move over, , passing on a right or over 2 lanes are common, merging or as the rest of the country calls it cutting off, is done with less than 1 length of a car. honking and flashing at someone, in most cases pi$$es people off and they do even dumber things that what you honked/flashed at them for. you flash someone going slow in a left lane, they are not moving over, they brake check you.

 

[jtr1962]

Good info for vast majority of USA, but in nyc all rules are out of a window, in real driving in nyc right lane is the fastest lane, left line is not for passing, some people drive below SL in that line and would not move over, , passing on a right or over 2 lanes are common, merging or as the rest of the country calls it cutting off, is done with less than 1 length of a car. honking and flashing at someone, in most cases pi$$es people off and they do even dumber things that what you honked/flashed at them for. you flash someone going slow in a left lane, they are not moving over, they brake check you.

I was about to say something similar. I'll add that passing in a parking lane (assuming it's empty), or bike lane is another common thing here. Add in cutting to the front of a line of cars waiting for the left turn signal. I don't drive. I ride a bike, but you see even more of this type of nonsense from the saddle. I really love when I'm going, say, 20 mph then some numb nut passes me, only to slam on the brakes half a block later to make a right turn (without signaling of course). If that maneuver saves any time at all, it's tenths of a second. Problem is drivers here see a bike in front, then automatically assume the bike is delaying them, without bothering to notice the speed of the bike. Hint-if you're turning right within the next block or so, just stay behind any bikes in front of you. The bike won't delay you by much, if at all. If the bike happens to be turning right also, guess what? We generally make right turns faster than motorists. I have no trouble making a tight right at 16 or 17 mph. Most motorists slow to under 10 mph for that.

A lot of what was discussed in this thread is applicable on two wheels as well as four. I try to get passing maneuvers over with as quickly as possible to avoid being in a traffic lane for too long. If I'm closing on someone at only a few mph, I just reduce my speed a bit and hang back, rather than do a lengthy pass. More often than not the slower person in front will turn off after a few blocks anyway. Only difference between a bike and a motor vehicle is the motor vehicle can almost always go 10 or 15 faster than whatever it's passing to get the pass done as quickly as possible. When you're using human power, it's a different ballgame. If I'm passing someone going 15 mph, even getting to 10 faster isn't that easy. On the plus side, I can go back into the bike lane once I'm far enough ahead for the other cyclist to clearly see me, say 2 or 3 car lengths ahead.

 

[idleprocess]

Good info for vast majority of USA

I should have prefaced it as being applicable to country interstate driving. Myself, within the extended DFW metro area, traffic density is high enough that passing happens at whatever closure rate conditions allow, often in whatever lane of the 3+ is available.

 

[bykfixer]

I should have prefaced it as being applicable to country interstate driving. Myself, within the extended DFW metro area, traffic density is high enough that passing happens at whatever closure rate conditions allow, often in whatever lane of the 3+ is available.

See, that's a valid point. The driving experience from the perspective of each person's little bubble in the universe. I'm nowhere near DFW but my experiences are similar. So I'd say aside from the really densely populated areas the experience on average would be similar on the interstate highway system.

As a lad I saw our highways slowly go from a wonderous slab of pavement with sparse traffic to a clogged vein of interstate highway. My mom used grumble at interchanges as it was dog eat dog back then. She'd remark "in the big city they know how to merge, here is just a cluster of accidents waiting to happen". First time I drove to the big city I soon realized "uh, mom I don't know how to break it to ya, but these people are worse".

 

[Mr305WorldWide]

I disagree with this post. Overtaking and passing is literally the same thing. If you are continuasly passing/overtaking cars, you are SPEEDING.

Secondly, when you pass up a car, its best to do this slowly. You'd WANT the other driver to know where you are. This way they don't switch lanes because they didn't know you are there. No sudden movements is best. When I switch lanes, I do it very slowly.

 

[Poppy]

I generally ride in the middle lane, well I guess it depends upon traffic conditions.
When I am in the left lane and want to move to the middle lane, I generally do so slowly, and if there is a car in the right lane, I generally wait until I pass him to pull over. This way I'm not pulling into his blind spot.

I also try to leave myself an escape route.
Especially when in heavy traffic, I'll follow the car in front of me at an appropriate distance, and try not to allow myself to get within a car length or two of a car that is in a lane to the left or right of me. This way if either makes an abrupt move into my lane, I'll have a little reaction time.

Just as I learned years ago, when driving in the City, when at a stop light, never pull up to the bumper of the car in front. I always want to leave enough room so that I can make a turn and get away from behind him, in case some maniac tries to assault me, or a fire breaks out, or the car in front stalls and can't get started. Also, I don't want to get so close that my AC, or Heater is pulling in carbon monoxide from his exhaust.

 

[bykfixer]

One day I was easing my way home on a speed limit 65 road with trains of cars drafting past me at what appeared to be 80+mph. I'm running like 67 or so. No big back up behind me. As the trains would pass I stayed in the right lane (of 2 lanes) and go past a police car sitting on the shoulder. Now if I felt it safe I would have moved over. I felt it safer not to.

Suddenly blue lights are behind me. I eased off the throttle to let him pass and catch those speeders. But he was pulling me over for not moving over a lane. I asked why he pulled me. He said because of the move over law. My response was I felt it safer to stay in the lane I was in. He said "I disagree" and wrote me a ticket. I said "see you in court". Man, I stewed about that for days. I get to court months later and see on the docket was over 150 cases with that cops name on it. Ok, so mr judge is tossing out case after case. I pled no contest. The cop lied to the judge and said I was unaware of the pull over law. That irked me because I'd been pulling over long before the pull over law. The judge sent me to driving school.

I get to driving school and learned to add one second for each hazard. Stay back 1000/2 and add one for each hazard like rain, dark, fatigue etc. Now there are times when that is not practical or even possible. Yet I can't count on both hands and both feet combined how many times a rear ender was avoided by following that and Poppy's escape route rule. When I do pass somebody I don't lolligag about it but don't dash past either. I move over allowing time for the slower motorist to see me, get on with the pass, overtake with plenty of room and settle back into position as soon as practical.

So far so good.

The thing that gets me sometimes is while sitting at a red light in a straight thru lane and dual lefts turn green....every so often I thought it was the straight lane that turned green. Doh!

 

[idleprocess]

Overtaking and passing is literally the same thing

For the purpose of discussion I am using the terms differently.

If you are continuasly passing/overtaking cars, you are SPEEDING.

One can be continuously overtaking other vehicles while cruising at the speed limit:

• RVs and heavily-burdened 2500+ class pickups tend to be driving at speed limit -10 and slower
• OTR trucks will tend to be driving at about speed limit -5
• Drivers maintaining speed manually will have considerably more variation in their speed than those using cruise control
• Invariable speedometer performance differences due to calibration will result in differences between vehicles all nominally travelling at the speed limit

Secondly, when you pass up a car, its best to do this slowly.

I've noted my reasons for reducing the overtake window elsewhere in the thread.

You'd WANT the other driver to know where you are. This way they don't switch lanes because they didn't know you are there. No sudden movements is best. When I switch lanes, I do it very slowly.

There's a general window of acceptability.

Too Slow

• Apparent motion potentially too subtle to register
• Long periods of time spent in blind spots
• Traffic can stack up in the left lane when passes take multiple minutes

Too Fast

• Suddenly appearing risks startling other drivers
• Rapid lane changes risk upsetting suspension
• Insufficient margins for anyone to react to the unexpected

Ideal Speed

• Motion is telegraphed and conspicuously visible to other drivers
• Intent is apparent, duration of pass us predictable for all, time spent in blind spots is brief
• Left lane is kept reasonably clear

I generally ride in the middle lane, well I guess it depends upon traffic conditions.

I'm describing my theory around true interstate highway driving outside population centers - two lanes each direction, typically low traffic density relative to the nominal rated capacity. Under such conditions it's normally possible to maintain a nice gap front and back.

When I am in the left lane and want to move to the middle lane, I generally do so slowly, and if there is a car in the right lane, I generally wait until I pass him to pull over. This way I'm not pulling into his blind spot.

My daily driver will auto-blink the turn signal 3 times - a lane change normally takes another longer ⅓ longer than this. At initiation this signals intent beyond the turn signal; at termination it's done with considerable margins thus need not be slow.

Especially when in heavy traffic, I'll follow the car in front of me at an appropriate distance, and try not to allow myself to get within a car length or two of a car that is in a lane to the left or right of me. This way if either makes an abrupt move into my lane, I'll have a little reaction time.

Margins are important, thus my preference for +5-10 car lengths on both sides of a pass. Of course, whenever OTR trucks are passing one another or a +1MPH left lane cruiser has opted to pass a convoy of OTR trucks the choice is often to close distance or get passed on the right because someone is too impatient or worse become a rolling chicane as traffic flows around on the right like water flowing past obstacles in a streambed.

Otherwise, under normal conditions (good road conditions, generally straight/level highway, good visibility, no one driving erratically/aggressively) temporarily reducing margins to escape congestion may represent an acceptable risk so long as one accepts that driving will be your sole task until you again have margins and can relax.

But he was pulling me over for not moving over a lane. I asked why he pulled me. He said because of the move over law.

In Texas I recall it's change lanes or reduce speed to limit -20MPH. In my experience if changing lanes isn't an option a visible effort to slow down will suffice.

 

[bykfixer]

For the purpose of discussion I am using the terms differently.


One can be continuously overtaking other vehicles while cruising at the speed limit:

• RVs and heavily-burdened 2500+ class pickups tend to be driving at speed limit -10 and slower
• OTR trucks will tend to be driving at about speed limit -5
• Drivers maintaining speed manually will have considerably more variation in their speed than those using cruise control
• Invariable speedometer performance differences due to calibration will result in differences between vehicles all nominally travelling at the speed limit

I've noted my reasons for reducing the overtake window elsewhere in the thread.


There's a general window of acceptability.

Too Slow

• Apparent motion potentially too subtle to register
• Long periods of time spent in blind spots
• Traffic can stack up in the left lane when passes take multiple minutes

Too Fast

• Suddenly appearing risks startling other drivers
• Rapid lane changes risk upsetting suspension
• Insufficient margins for anyone to react to the unexpected

Ideal Speed

• Motion is telegraphed and conspicuously visible to other drivers
• Intent is apparent, duration of pass us predictable for all, time spent in blind spots is brief
• Left lane is kept reasonably clear

I'm describing my theory around true interstate highway driving outside population centers - two lanes each direction, typically low traffic density relative to the nominal rated capacity. Under such conditions it's normally possible to maintain a nice gap front and back.


My daily driver will auto-blink the turn signal 3 times - a lane change normally takes another longer ⅓ longer than this. At initiation this signals intent beyond the turn signal; at termination it's done with considerable margins thus need not be slow.


Margins are important, thus my preference for +5-10 car lengths on both sides of a pass. Of course, whenever OTR trucks are passing one another or a +1MPH left lane cruiser has opted to pass a convoy of OTR trucks the choice is often to close distance or get passed on the right because someone is too impatient or worse become a rolling chicane as traffic flows around on the right like water flowing past obstacles in a streambed.

Otherwise, under normal conditions (good road conditions, generally straight/level highway, good visibility, no one driving erratically/aggressively) temporarily reducing margins to escape congestion may represent an acceptable risk so long as one accepts that driving will be your sole task until you again have margins and can relax.


In Texas I recall it's change lanes or reduce speed to limit -20MPH. In my experience if changing lanes isn't an option a visible effort to slow down will suffice.

In my line of work I've seen flashing arrows , crash cushion trucks and state troopers get wiped out by motorists not getting over. Combine that with the times I was working on mine or someone elses jalopy inches from cars whizzing past. So I've been moving over for decades before the law was passed in my state. I move over for anything parked on the shoulder, be it car, truck, bus....and police, as long as it's safe. That day I was pulled over that trooper was strategically waiting for cars not moving over. While I was reading the citation he took off chasing somebody else.

One night a trooper was telling a coworker and I about the 8 times he'd been hit in a work zone. The irony was an hour later he was hit again. It ripped the door off the car that time. We nick named him Johnny Lightning after that famous park ranger hit by lightning a bunch of times.

I was considering telling the judge about my line of work and how yes, I was aware of the move over law and that Jack-o Jerk, the trooper was entrapping people but figured it best to just plead no contest and let karma work it out later. It led to me attending a driving class where I learned stuff like holding your arms at 10 and 2 could result in broken arms in a crash by the air bag deploying. And the add one second per hazard rule.

 

[Mr305WorldWide]

For the purpose of discussion I am using the terms differently.


One can be continuously overtaking other vehicles while cruising at the speed limit:

• RVs and heavily-burdened 2500+ class pickups tend to be driving at speed limit -10 and slower
• OTR trucks will tend to be driving at about speed limit -5
• Drivers maintaining speed manually will have considerably more variation in their speed than those using cruise control
• Invariable speedometer performance differences due to calibration will result in differences between vehicles all nominally travelling at the speed limit

I've noted my reasons for reducing the overtake window elsewhere in the thread.


There's a general window of acceptability.

Too Slow

• Apparent motion potentially too subtle to register
• Long periods of time spent in blind spots
• Traffic can stack up in the left lane when passes take multiple minutes

Too Fast

• Suddenly appearing risks startling other drivers
• Rapid lane changes risk upsetting suspension
• Insufficient margins for anyone to react to the unexpected

Ideal Speed

• Motion is telegraphed and conspicuously visible to other drivers
• Intent is apparent, duration of pass us predictable for all, time spent in blind spots is brief
• Left lane is kept reasonably clear

I'm describing my theory around true interstate highway driving outside population centers - two lanes each direction, typically low traffic density relative to the nominal rated capacity. Under such conditions it's normally possible to maintain a nice gap front and back.


My daily driver will auto-blink the turn signal 3 times - a lane change normally takes another longer ⅓ longer than this. At initiation this signals intent beyond the turn signal; at termination it's done with considerable margins thus need not be slow.


Margins are important, thus my preference for +5-10 car lengths on both sides of a pass. Of course, whenever OTR trucks are passing one another or a +1MPH left lane cruiser has opted to pass a convoy of OTR trucks the choice is often to close distance or get passed on the right because someone is too impatient or worse become a rolling chicane as traffic flows around on the right like water flowing past obstacles in a streambed.

Otherwise, under normal conditions (good road conditions, generally straight/level highway, good visibility, no one driving erratically/aggressively) temporarily reducing margins to escape congestion may represent an acceptable risk so long as one accepts that driving will be your sole task until you again have margins and can relax.


In Texas I recall it's change lanes or reduce speed to limit -20MPH. In my experience if changing lanes isn't an option a visible effort to slow down will suffice.

To put the act of good driving into words is very difficult in my opinion. You can only be general with words. All the nuances should be held in the mind of a good driver.

Good driving is an ongoing experiment of different techniques and refinement.

In my line of work I've seen flashing arrows , crash cushion trucks and state troopers get wiped out by motorists not getting over. Combine that with the times I was working on mine or someone elses jalopy inches from cars whizzing past. So I've been moving over for decades before the law was passed in my state. I move over for anything parked on the shoulder, be it car, truck, bus....and police, as long as it's safe. That day I was pulled over that trooper was strategically waiting for cars not moving over. While I was reading the citation he took off chasing somebody else.

One night a trooper was telling a coworker and I about the 8 times he'd been hit in a work zone. The irony was an hour later he was hit again. It ripped the door off the car that time. We nick named him Johnny Lightning after that famous park ranger hit by lightning a bunch of times.

I was considering telling the judge about my line of work and how yes, I was aware of the move over law and that Jack-o Jerk, the trooper was entrapping people but figured it best to just plead no contest and let karma work it out later. It led to me attending a driving class where I learned stuff like holding your arms at 10 and 2 could result in broken arms in a crash by the air bag deploying. And the add one second per hazard rule.

You should not have gotten that ticket because it's a BS ticket from the start. There are bigger problems out there that needs attention, not pulling someone over for not moving over(unless you didn't slow down). That officer sounds like he had some kind of vendetta against society. Just consider yourself unlucky that day lol.

 

[idleprocess]

In my line of work I've seen flashing arrows , crash cushion trucks and state troopers get wiped out by motorists not getting over. Combine that with the times I was working on mine or someone elses jalopy inches from cars whizzing past. So I've been moving over for decades before the law was passed in my state. I move over for anything parked on the shoulder, be it car, truck, bus....and police, as long as it's safe. That day I was pulled over that trooper was strategically waiting for cars not moving over. While I was reading the citation he took off chasing somebody else.

I prefer to move over as well for all those reasons in addition to allowing vehicles on the shoulder the margin to re-enter traffic without having to accelerate on the shoulder where there are rumble strips and often hazardous detritus.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

Detritus, for when debris simply won't do.

 

[idleprocess]

Detritus, for when debris simply won't do.

I toyed with both "flotsam" and "jetsam" but those weren't right. Debris is probably the better word.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

I toyed with both "flotsam" and "jetsam" but those weren't right. Debris is probably the better word.

Nevertheless, you sent me to the dictionary. ..... even had to click on the little speaker.

 

[Poppy]

Since 1999 I drove a Crown Vic, and for the last 6 years, a Grand Marquis (essentially an upgraded Crown Vic). The Crown Vic had the unique distinction of being the model car that had more rear-end crashes than any other model. It just so happens to be that it was the most popular car for local and State Police, for decades.

It had gotten an unfair bad reputation for gas tank explosions from rear impacts, at 60 MPH. Where does one get a rear impact at 60 MPH? When doing a traffic stop on an interstate, or at a construction site with lights a blaring.

So yeah there is something to be said about the move over law. In Bykfixer's case, who knows what the officers motivation was.

I wish there are more officers who aggressively enforce headlight aim, and height regulations.

 

[Sjvalleydave]

Oh I've no doubt you play spectator to more than a few motorists executing aggressive right-lane passes with slightly >1 car length of clearance and just hope it's enough.

And I do appreciate that trucks simply drive slower for reasons of physics if nothing else.


So I don't know if this impacts OTR trucks but on the occasions I've been passed at speed I feel that push and know to anticipate it. The effect seems to be most pronounced on large surface area / lightweight vehicles - slab-sided motorhomes and lightweight recreational trailers are the most susceptible.


FWIW my experience the last ~decade has been primarily interstates (minimum 4 lanes) and this is written from the perspective of country rather than city driving. However on a 2-lane road one is often obligated to pass decisively or not at all.


If a left lane cruiser is crawling up on me at +1 MPH and I'm within ~20 car lengths of a vehicle I'm overtaking I'll generally initiate the pass early - particularly if there are vehicles crawling up on them. I too find vehicles in adjacent lanes travelling at similar speeds uncomfortable and know there's potential for shenanigans as the left lane cruiser does the rolling road block routine for a minute-plus and irritates other motorists.


Same. They're a hazard.

They also tend not to accept the natural speed of a given stretch of highway at a given time. Outside of truly open highway with negligible traffic, exceeding this speed becomes increasingly more difficult and risky.

I've also noted that while tailgaters are often willing to drive markedly faster than the average speed they're so ineffectual in their approach that I can often catch up to and pass them, leaving them stuck in a convoy of slower traffic without increasing my cruising speed. Bump drafting doesn't sufficiently encourage other motorists to make way to improve one's pace.


I tend to make maneuvers with several lanes of clearance so I make them briskly - check for clearance, touch the signal, and about time the automatic 3-flash sequence has terminated I'm starting to straighten out in the other lane.


Indeed. Watching other motorists - on city streets, urban highways, interstates, country roads - I'm convinced that the average driver is consistently failing to utilize their senses in order to build and maintain this awareness. I feel like some of this is distraction - yelling at kids, looking at their GD phones, futzing with their infotainment systems - but some of this is a failure to look further ahead and also a failure to properly fill in blanks based on limited information.

On the latter point I was close witness to a collision recently. I was waiting to turn left at a signal on a 6-lane divided road behind another vehicle along a sweeping right curve. Signal was flashing yellow arrow - yield to any oncoming traffic, of which there was a steady flow. I glanced up as the flow started to clear and the vehicle in front of my started to inch forward. As a vehicle in the innermost lane started to clear the intersection I sensed something was wrong. The vehicle in front of me committed and my perception caught up with the situation - a vehicle in the outer lane was oncoming at perhaps 60 MPH, had been partially masked by the vehicle in the inner lane, and contrasted poorly with its surroundings. The collision was sufficiently energetic to knock the turning car into a third vehicle waiting to turn right. No one reacted. Entire situation took less than 5 seconds to unfold. Mercifully no one appeared to be seriously injured.

I know that on a 2 lane highway, I cringe when somebody gets out in the oncoming traffic lane to pass and they lolling out there. I really dislike being out there in the breeze, that's why I minimize the time I'm in the oncoming traffic lanes...

 

[bykfixer]

On those roads when somebody is passing me I slow down as they pass so they can get past me quicker and back in the lane. If a head on wipeout occurs I'd likely be affected so I do my part to help prevent it.

 

[chillinn]

What I see being described by idleprocess is neither overtaking nor passing, but what I call "leftlaning." Leftlaners only drive in the left lane. It is a cancer in rural areas, and I believe bykfixer can attest that it has metastasized even on the Interstates in Virginia, especially on the I-64 corridor between Williamsburg and Richmond, where one will experience parades of cars bumper to bumper in the left lane regardless of and in spite of the fact that the right lane is entirely empty, sometimes for miles. Out my way on Route 17, the sickness is maddening. And one can only come to one conclusion here: many don't subscribe to the finer points of traffic rules, that the left lane is for passing. They just like to drive there, and when questioned about it invariably the explanation is, "that's just how we do it in the country." But it is instead entitlement: "me first! No one passes me. I'm going fast enough, there's no reason for it."

Leftlaners cause traffic. KEEP RIGHT.