Surefire 6P questions

[Dave D]

I am actually surprised you didnt go with the streamlight strion. They are great little lights that you dont even notice on your belt, bright enough to get the job done and you can cycle down the brightness to make it last a long time. I dont know if you run a foot beat or ride in a car but you could throw it on your charger in the car and it would be charged pretty fast.

I believe that the chargers for the Stinger and the Strion are different sizes, so the Strion is too small to be used in a Stinger charger, happy to be corrected if that is not the case.

 

[rwolfenstein]

I believe that the chargers for the Stinger and the Strion are different sizes, so the Strion is too small to be used in a Stinger charger, happy to be corrected if that is not the case.

They are different sizes. The strion charger is smaller, I meant that if he gets a strion with a charger, he could charge it in the car quickly. Not saying to use a charger he already has. I also found it very interesting that streamlight added a micro usb port on their fast chargers. My patrol cars have 12 volt sockets and usb charger ports. The USB charger port works with the streamlight chargers so I can always get a full charge.

 

[rwolfenstein]

I just bought (rented from Amazon) the Strion DS HL - its 700 lumens. I'll compare it to the others this weekend and report back! BTW....yes, you made me buy it.

I am happy to help!

 

[chillinn]

I didn't have much future plans regarding 6P, just one expensive build in mind that is always a few months away. But only because of a recent query regarding a 21700 P60 host, I discovered one, and I intend to get at least three of these KDLitker E6-21700 along with matching forward-clickies to replace the stock reverse-clicky. The review of the hardware is positive even though neither of its threads are compatible with Surefire C/P. Regardless, it accepts any P60 dropin and 21700 cell. Along with a Vapcell F58 INR21700 12.5A 5800mAh cell, it will slightly underdrive a P61 for nearly 2.5 hours, slightly underdrive a P60 for nearly 4.5 hours, slightly underdrive an SR-6 for nearly 5.25 hours, and properly drive an HO-4 for over 3 hours. If there were such a thing as a 21350 cell there would be more lamp options. If I can find a LiFePO4 21700 cell with at least 4800mAh, I'll run one of them with a 3V lamp for over 5 hours. LED modules, of course, will run much longer or much brighter or some mixed combination of brightness and runtime, such as this at 1000Lm for at least 3 hours. Anyway, I wanted to mention in case any were unaware it exists, because it is crazy cheap, apparently well made, and though there will be no lego, and it isn't the most attractive host, with the right cell it will run right past this apocalypse and well into the next before you need to swap out the cell.

 

[michiganstud]

Bad dog!

I'm an addict.

I also like that they haven't shrouded or fenced the tail switch actuator either, as I'm not a fan of that.

This is my gripe about the Protac HLX!! I don't like the caged edges ....it prevents me from getting a good press on the switch.

I got my Polytac X today and already I hate it just for that! They are much worse than the Protac. Much more raised or pronounced. I'll still put it through the paces....but I'm only keeping one of these, and I'm betting it won't be the Polytac-X.

In the pic, the Polytac is on the left, Protac on the right.

On a side note, you CAN get just the Strion off Amazin for around 100 bucks. Just use your old chargers and holders!

I just saw the fact sheet where it shows its regulated to stay 700 lumens.....the graph does show a slight drop ....looks to be 650 lumens and by an hour its at 600 lumens. I really like this. Much better than the Stingers drop from 800 to 600 almost in 15 minutes of use!!!

It comes tomorrow and honestly I can't wait. I think it will be the winner.

 

[hsa]

I am one of the people who mentioned the Polytac-X and I offer my apologies. My older Polytac has a proud unshrouded tail cap button.
I don't like the shrouds either, in fact I have given up on tailcap switches all together for a good old sideswitch. How did you like the beam and overall performance otherwise?

 

[kerneldrop]

This is my gripe about the Protac HLX!! I don't like the caged edges ....it prevents me from getting a good press on the switch.

Sand down the caged edges. It'll make it look like a hard-user beater

 

[bykfixer]

Sand down the caged edges. It'll make it look like a hard-user beater

5 minutes with a dremel cutting disk and a bit of sanding might make it look factory unshrouded

A before and after

 

[kerneldrop]

5 minutes with a dremel cutting disk and a bit of sanding might make it look factory unshrouded

Heck yea! That's what I'm talking about.
I sanded off the end of a gemstone shrouded light. I'm not scared

 

[ampdude]

Haha, I haven't used my dremel in awhile, but they sure are fun to use and see the results! Good luck.

 

[michiganstud]

I am one of the people who mentioned the Polytac-X and I offer my apologies. My older Polytac has a proud unshrouded tail cap button.
I don't like the shrouds either, in fact I have given up on tailcap switches all together for a good old sideswitch. How did you like the beam and overall performance otherwise?

Beam and throw is great! It really is a great light and really for the price I don't see a reason to send it back. I just don't like the cage on it. These are much more pronounced than any other light i've had them on. So did you steer me wrong? No, not at all. Good light.

I see comments on sanding or grinding them off....and maybe that is the trick. But I got my Strion today and so far I'm loving that. Much smaller than the Stinger and has dual switches....the side switch is what I will use more.

Still reviewing.

 

[desert.snake]

My Eagletac 16650 with protection never left me in the dark on tube SFs. They dim quite noticeably, and then begin to flicker, clearly indicating that it's time to change the battery.

I took an old C2 from the local market, in a week or 2 it will arrive and I will shoot a video with the behavior of the battery when it is discharged

I checked it, it works for about 1.3 hours, it becomes very dim and starts blinking, the blinking lasts about 30 seconds, gradually weakening. If the lantern is turned off and allowed to rest, the voltage is restored and you can shine for some more time. The protection scheme is not working now. The protection circuit kicks in with LED lights when the driver tries to draw a lot of current from a drained cell. I think here the protection can also work if, after the blinking stops, the flashlight is left on



Immediately after the shutdown, the battery showed about 2.77V and is gradually recovering. As I tried to grab both probes with one hand, the voltage rose.

 

[chillinn]

I wonder if the blinking isn't really a feature, but just how the cell behaves due to a protection circuit that cuts back on when the cell voltage recovers. I imagine it is working like this: the cell reaches a voltage low enough to trip the circuit, and it cuts off voltage. The light turns off, and it stops drawing voltage from the cell. Because voltage isn't being drawn from the cell, the cell rests slightly, and the cell's voltage recovers about a volt. This voltage is barely high enough that the protection circuit trips back on, and the light turns on again for a second, which reduces the cell's voltage again past the protection's cut off, tripping the circuit and turning off the light. This repeats for a while until the cell voltage is firmly below the protection circuit cutoff voltage, and unless the light is mechanically switched off, the cell can't recover enough voltage resting for so short a period to reactivate the circuit to allow voltage to switch the light back on.

I'm willing to bet that is really what's happening, and maybe this is how all the protection circuits work in that brand of cell, or maybe it is just that particular cell. I don't have a lot of protected cells, and they're all pretty old cells, so when the circuit trips, there's no way the old cell can recover enough voltage to make the light appear like it's blinking. It turns off. A minute later, it blinks on and off. It stays off a minute, and blinks on and off again, until the voltage no longer recovers about the protection circuit's cut off voltage. If the cell was new, with less charge cycles, voltage may recover fast enough to make it appear like the light was blinking, but my protected cells are from 2016 with many many recharges on them.

I think if you were more familiar with your lights and your cells' capacity, you probably wouldn't be as concerned about this "feature" warning you, which, again, is probably just the behavior I described above. This familiarity just comes naturally, there's nothing you'd need to do other than continue to use your lights as you use them. After awhile, you'd just know that the capacity of your cell was almost depleted, and it was time to swap in a new cell, with the protection there in case you were distracted.

It is not absolutely necessary to fully deplete a cell's capacity every single time it's used, religiously, and in fact your cells (of any chemistry) will last through many more recharges by leaving 20% remaining capacity, also if only charging to 80% capacity. That's only using 50% of a cell's capacity, but it will extend the life of the cell well beyond more than twice as many recharges, so the practice more than makes up for only using the middle 50% of a cell's capacity.

Fully charging and fully depleting a Li-ion cell presumably would only provide a life of exactly 500 recharges before capacity was significantly reduced and/or it would no longer provide full current. So the real benefit to this practice, besides saving money, is extending a Li-ion cell's ability to provide full current beyond what would be 1000 full recharges and full depletions, by, again, not using the remaining 20% and only charging to 80%. This is much easier to do with devices that actually provide a % of remaining capacity, such as a cell phone, but it is still possible with a Li-ion cell using a little bit of math and naturally becoming unconsciously familiar with what that runtime is.

 

[desert.snake]

I'm not worried about batteries. I don't care about the drop in capacity as long as I'm happy with the running time. Since their inception, the cells have been steadily approaching death, just like the rest of us. I have treated my several cells quite carefully, they are in great shape, but already morally obsolete, for a few dollars I can buy fresh ones that have 10 or more times more current at the same capacity, or increased capacity at the same maximum current, and I wonder if it was worth my time worrying about their condition? If, of course, the end of the world comes and it will be very problematic to get new cells, then the skills of proper handling of batteries may be useful.

I have had a set of 4 of these identical cells since ~2014. 2 gave to a friend, 2 remained and still work. The capacity has slightly decreased and now ~ 2350 instead of 2500 mAh. It is possible that this is indeed a turn off / turn on of the protection circuit, but this does not happen with LED lights - it just turns off, and does not turn on until it is charged. Without the right test equipment, it's impossible to say for sure what it is.

I made this quick test in response to the comment that protected cells are left in the dark. As you can see, this is not the case

But if often running cells to empty, protection is a nice convenience, never need worry about overdischarge, although it will leave you in the dark when bumping up against the protection.

 

[chillinn]

I'm not worried about batteries. I don't care about the drop in capacity as long as I'm happy with the running time

for a few dollars I can buy fresh ones

For a few dollars maybe you can buy one, medium capacity (2000-2500mAh), unlabeled generic 18650, if that.

But known high quality cells cost more, for example
Keeppower P1826C 5.2A 2600mAh Protected Button Top
Samsung 26J 18650 5.2A 2600mAh Protected Button Top
These are probably the same cell, but I'm having trouble finding protected cells in that capacity range. Most are higher capacity and more expensive, unless ordering wholesale in bulk from China. Just by what I'm seeing, I think maybe the trend is LiCo protected cells are disappearing. The two cells above are hybrid INR or LiNiMnCoO2, which, strictly speaking, do not require protection. There's bound to be plenty of LiCo protected cells still available somewhere, but I wonder if manufacturing has slowed or stopped, because they used to be by far the most plentiful and now INR and IMR (LiMn, which I have never seen protected) seem to be easier to find right now. HKJ pointed this out to me a couple years ago, that all new Li-ion cells were hybrid chemistries, and it sort of went in one ear out the other.

and I wonder if it was worth my time worrying about their condition?

The reality is the cells you're talking about are now $5-$8/pc in the US. I made the same mistake with Duracell Solar 18500 1200mAh LiFePO4 cells I picked up at Home Depot thinking they were cheap at $12/pair, and I took them for granted. Only later did I realize that they were decent cells, and I really liked them, and they were no longer available, and by then I couldn't afford them anyway (but that's just me, I'm destitute, and I expect nearly everyone has more cash flow).

It is possible that this is indeed a turn off / turn on of the protection circuit, but this does not happen with LED lights - it just turns off, and does not turn on until it is charged. Without the right test equipment, it's impossible to say for sure what it is.

I made this quick test in response to the comment that protected cells are left in the dark. As you can see, this is not the case

These statements conflict with each other. If what you describe was an intended feature of the cell, to warn the user, don't you think they would advertise that? And I expect any protected cell to behave this way, so to say, "there's no way to know" is a bit disingenuous. I think it's just how protected cells will behave because of how I described it in the previous post, and I think I would see that behavior myself if my LiCo cells weren't 7 years old and so well used, because I nearly see it now, just with a longer delay between flashes, which is how I'd expect an older cell to behave, i.e. recover it's resting voltage slower with less available current.

Check this out.
Vapcell N36 INR18650 3.7V 8A 3650mAh
You can get these 10 at a time direct from the Vapcell factory for $36, about the price of 5-7 protected 2500mAh cells domestically (which I can't find direct from factory anymore, maybe you can), and not only get more cells but about 40% more capacity per cell with a much higher amp rating, but you'll probably never see this cell protected because it doesn't need it. But even pedestrian capacity INR and IMR cells usually have at least 3000mAh.

The hybrid chems are really great, and it's really a good thing they don't need protection. The reason for the protection on LiCo isn't to warn to user, it's to prevent them from discharging the cell below 2.5V and subsequently placing a damaged cell back on a charger, because bad things can happen (but it's also to cut off voltage for too high a current draw before thermal runaway becomes a risk).

Not to mention, more and more flashlights are being designed with LVP built in, further making protected cells obsolete.

But even if my conjecture is wildly inaccurate, and yours is 100% correct, protected cells are getting less and less common, so I wouldn't get too attached to them because there might not be any available five years from now. So if you like them, there's a good reason to be worried about your cells and take care of them, because you may never see their kind again (I'm exaggerating to make a point, which is that LiCo protected cells will fully disappear eventually, maybe sooner than later).

 

[desert.snake]

Yes, you're right, the prices have become much more than I watched them last time I usually take here, since delivery from abroad has recently become very expensive or impossible

18650

enecrosse.ru

18650 4.35V

enecrosse.ru

I just went to pull out a tooth, and while I was pulling it out, a thought came to me. Perhaps this behavior of the cell is due to the fact that they are LiCo. That is, they configured the protection board to operate at a high voltage (maybe 3.5 volts under load), since as soon as I took it out of the flashlight, it showed 3.7V. About 3.5V - this is my guess, without additional equipment I cannot say what voltage this battery has under load at the moment the protection is triggered. It does not make sense to buy for the sake of a single test, it is too expensive.

 

[chillinn]

I think so. LiCo should be 3.6V nominal, which I always thought meant that under load rated for the cell, it will ride 3.6V more or less until the capacity is depleted. LiCo is the only chem that when overdischarged below 2.5V, dendrites can form (the damage overdischarge causes), which can short the cell when placed back on a charger, possibly catching fire or in rare cases exploding. So that's the reason for the low voltage protection on the cell, and they add the overdischarge, overcurrent, and shorting protection while they're at it.

I actually wouldn't mind so much having low voltage protection on IMR, as the cell is still damaged by overdischarge, but like INR, it is resistant if you can get the voltage back above 2.5V quickly, but not too quickly. Some INR cells sometimes have it, usually Samsung, but sometimes Sony VTC4/5/6 also. But it's getting less common, as it isn't a safety issue, and what do manufacturers and resellers care if you have to replace your cells? That's what they want.

 

[rwolfenstein]

Beam and throw is great! It really is a great light and really for the price I don't see a reason to send it back. I just don't like the cage on it. These are much more pronounced than any other light i've had them on. So did you steer me wrong? No, not at all. Good light.

I see comments on sanding or grinding them off....and maybe that is the trick. But I got my Strion today and so far I'm loving that. Much smaller than the Stinger and has dual switches....the side switch is what I will use more.

Still reviewing.

I like my strion, I just dont see the reason to carry 3 lights on me hahah. I guess, I could retire the streamlight stinger classic and use my strion, we just have so many darn stinger chargers at work it makes it convenient.

 

[M@elstrom]

I like my strion, I just dont see the reason to carry 3 lights on me hahah. I guess, I could retire the streamlight stinger classic and use my strion, we just have so many darn stinger chargers at work it makes it convenient.

Indeed... two is one but 3 is too much on a duty rig, I suppose a small AAA or AA light could ride on a chest rig or in a utility pocket, really depends on style/configuration of duty rig worn, everyone's needs are different 👍

 

[rwolfenstein]

Indeed... two is one but 3 is too much on a duty rig, I suppose a small AAA or AA light could ride on a chest rig or in a utility pocket, really depends on style/configuration of duty rig worn, everyone's needs are different 👍

I used to have a Quiqlite on my molle strap so I could look at ID's but the damn thing broke. Now I just have a Nebo Lil Larry in the front molle straps of my vest to give me hands free lighting.