Surefire 6P drop in updates?

[F89]

That's not necessarily true but it's mentioned frequently.
There's no point building a hot P60 if the shell isn't designed and contoured well, and isn't put together well.
I have three P60s running high amps.
One was built by a guy in Germany who called himself Vinz on here. It's a quad built in a straight sided heavy copper shell that's silver plated running at 5A and is very well made. From memory he mixed up his own diamond compound thermal glue on these drop ins which is interesting.
My other two I made from similar shells, solid copper and nickel or silver plated from memory. They're both quads running on H17Fx drivers with the MCPCB and LEDs solder bonded to the shell.
I have them installed in Oveready bored 6P bodies tightly fit and shimmed with copper foil.
They have a heap of thermal mass for a small light and transfer heat excellently.
I have frequently run them hard and they'll run as hard as you like on low internal resistance high drain batteries.
I've left the thermal step down at the default but I can't say I've ever seen them actually step down though. They'll get super hot and keep sucking amps as long as the battery provides them.
More often than not I'll drop down modes from the FET channel myself as they'll still put out plenty of light at 3 amps. It makes sense with a small and powerful light to not run it hard constantly if you want decent runtime and for it not to heat up a heap.
I'd say the main limiting factor on these lights isn't the thermal transfer from the shell to the body, as it certainly does a great job at that, it's simply the size of the light with such high wattage.

Malkoff drop ins on the other hand have a fair amount of air gap around them in a 6P and a heap of space in a Malkoff head but they're run at much more sensible currents.

 

[vicv]

That's not necessarily true but it's mentioned frequently.
There's no point building a hot P60 if the shell isn't designed and contoured well, and isn't put together well.
I have three P60s running high amps.
One was built by a guy in Germany who called himself Vinz on here. It's a quad built in a straight sided heavy copper shell that's silver plated running at 5A and is very well made. From memory he mixed up his own diamond compound thermal glue on these drop ins which is interesting.
My other two I made from similar shells, solid copper and nickel or silver plated from memory. They're both quads running on H17Fx drivers with the MCPCB and LEDs solder bonded to the shell.
I have them installed in Oveready bored 6P bodies tightly fit and shimmed with copper foil.
They have a heap of thermal mass for a small light and transfer heat excellently.
I have frequently run them hard and they'll run as hard as you like on low internal resistance high drain batteries.
I've left the thermal step down at the default but I can't say I've ever seen them actually step down though. They'll get super hot and keep sucking amps as long as the battery provides them.
More often than not I'll drop down modes from the FET channel myself as they'll still put out plenty of light at 3 amps. It makes sense with a small and powerful light to not run it hard constantly if you want decent runtime and for it not to heat up a heap.
I'd say the main limiting factor on these lights isn't the thermal transfer from the shell to the body, as it certainly does a great job at that, it's simply the size of the light with such high wattage.

Malkoff drop ins on the other hand have a fair amount of air gap around them in a 6P and a heap of space in a Malkoff head but they're run at much more sensible currents.

Wait….. Malkoff dropins have even less of a thermal path in their own head than in a surefire? I had assumed he had designed the head to try to alleviate the shortcomings of the 6p thermal design for led.

I remember Vinz. Never got one of his drop ins but I do remember he actually mixed pure diamond powder into thermal paste. It's was crazy

 

[F89]

Yes, no thermal transfer at the lens end, none at the sides and a little at the base where the retaining ring screws down (which then mates with the body). So very little in the Malkoff head.
I installed an Oveready triple in a Malkoff head and actually made an aluminium sleeve for the drop in which I shimmed and pressed into place to add more mass and thermal transfer. I also modified the retaining ring so I could install the lens and still get the head screwed onto the MD4 with plenty of turns.

I'd argue that that Malkoff drop ins/head combination is ok as is, given the drive currents and so on. Obviously they've proven to be tough and reliable.
If Gene wanted to he could make the retaining ring in a way that it enveloped the drop in to create more mass, contact, and transfer path but what he's currently doing seems to work fine.

As I've written about above, with a well designed, built, and installed drop in, the short comings thermally you speak of are pretty well non existent in a 6P.
Running any light with excessive wattage (like my drop ins) for a given size will always be the limiting factor.

 

[vicv]

Yes, no thermal transfer at the lens end, none at the sides and a little at the base where the retaining ring screws down (which then mates with the body). So very little in the Malkoff head.
I installed an Oveready triple in a Malkoff head and actually made an aluminium sleeve for the drop in which I shimmed and pressed into place to add more mass and thermal transfer. I also modified the retaining ring so I could install the lens and still get the head screwed onto the MD4 with plenty of turns.

I'd argue that that Malkoff drop ins/head combination is ok as is, given the drive currents and so on. Obviously they've proven to be tough and reliable.
If Gene wanted to he could make the retaining ring in a way that it enveloped the drop in to create more mass, contact, and transfer path but what he's currently doing seems to work fine.

As I've written about above, with a well designed, built, and installed drop in, the short comings thermally you speak of are pretty well non existent in a 6P.
Running any light with excessive wattage (like my drop ins) for a given size will always be the limiting factor.

Oh I know that there have been well designed press fit drop ins with good thermal mass and path. Just most of them aren't. And I still believe they make a poor led light, because of the plethora of lights designed specifically for LEDs. But a 6p is a great light and I understand why people wanted to "upgrade" them to continue using. I had at one point a vinh made drop in as they were all the rage then. You had to tightly wrap in aluminium or copper foil for heat transfer. Which defeated the point of the quick change idea of drop ins.

 

[F89]

They're a thing of the past but they still make a fantastic LED light.
Once I've got a good drop in sorted I generally don't change it up anytime soon but if I want to swap out a drop in I can do it in a couple of minutes. If it were a standard light I'd be de/resoldering and all kinds of stuff which may better be measured in hours to change things up.
The form factor and versatility of a 6P is right up there in my opinion.
I'd stake the performance of my 6P quads against any light (integrated shelf design etc) of a similar size/mass running the same wattage.

 

[vicv]

They're a thing of the past but they still make a fantastic LED light.
Once I've got a good drop in sorted I generally don't change it up anytime soon but if I want to swap out a drop in I can do it in a couple of minutes. If it were a standard light I'd be de/resoldering and all kinds of stuff which may better be measured in hours to change things up.
The form factor and versatility of a 6P is right up there in my opinion.
I'd stake the performance of my 6P quads against any light (integrated shelf design etc) of a similar size/mass running the same wattage.

All true. But with something like a convoy M1, which is a very well built light host and only cost about $10, you would just build a whole new light. And they are very similar in design to a 6P but with a deeper reflector.
Either way, at the end, you will have a damn fine light.
My issues with using the 6P and it's clones as an LED host is more for the other types of droppings. Not the very well fitting ones that you were talking about that are quite a specialty. With no air gap, that is a lot of surface area to transfer heat to.

 

[F89]

True, there's heaps of quality Chinese hosts that are cheap and you can knock up a heap of builds cheaply. None of these will ever fulfil me like my sweet 6Ps though.
I can't argue with results, but I have expensive tastes in this hobby. I like Surefire, and Malkoff, and McGizmo etc.
My EDC is a McGizmo Haiku AA that has a very modest output. I could get the same or better output from a $2 light but the Haiku is just purely awesome, expensive yes, but solid, reliable, and awesome.

I've built a few C8s that throw a beautiful beam, but to me they're soulless and sit somewhere gathering dust. Good lights yes, but they don't appeal to my eccentricity.

I love quality gear in my hobby, I like to buy USA made and other manufacture (although I'm not American).
I enjoy modding, I enjoy fettling, and I like rugged and reliable and basically just quality.

I'm the kind of guy that people on the other forum would laugh at because of the coin I'll drop on making or purchasing a light they can make for a mere fraction. I'm ok with that.
I've got some sweet lights though 😁

 

[vicv]

True. I enjoy my surefires as well, but I leave them incan. To me a 6P is like the perfect incandescent flashlight. And putting an LED in one is a travesty.😁
As to Malkoff, I have never owned one so my opinion on them doesn't matter much. But I do find the almost cult like following them have to be quite amusing. I'm sure they're well machined and finished lights. And obviously I'm not one to equate lumens=value. But, I do find it funny that in any other light made, the owner would find the regulation of their malkoff to be unacceptable. He does use a quite cheap buck driver, at least in the m61. So you get about 30-45 mins of regulated output with what the fans call a "long taper". This is with a single lithium ion. Any other light and it would be called (it drops out of regulation too fast) but with a Malkoff, it's a feature. Same with single mode. That's only acceptable with Malkoff. Sure, one can get the 2 mode ring, but low will give you some unknown amount of unregulated output. Again, unacceptable from any other brand.
Regardless Gene doesn't seem to want international customers so I don't and probably never will own one of his lights. But I totally understand that feeling of having a solid expensive light in your hand, especially one made in your country.

I know what you mean about the other site. If you mention surefire or maglite over there or on Reddit, you get crucified. Especially maglite. Of course they're kinda hated by the masses here too

 

[F89]

Yep, the 6P is an iconic incandescent light. I can understand the blasphemous aspect of my modifications.

I don't know about Gene not wanting to deal with overseas customers. I live on the other side of the world and he's been very accommodating.
As far as my latest Malkoff goes (Hound dog 18650 XT) , it uses the high/low ring but it's a solid state head and not a drop in. I had some issues initially with contact on low. I'd never experienced this with my other Malkoff lights. I sorted it out and it's good as gold now.
I've found the regulation to be great on this light. While I haven't used equipment to make measurements, it appears to hold solid and consistent output until the battery is spent.
I've no idea how long low lasts (activated by a spring loaded pin and resistor) but it's a fantastic system.
Malkoff stuff isn't really aimed at the hobbyist or casual user, it's more about rugged, reliable, and simple and effective gear for professional use. Of course it appeals to enthusiasts, collectors, and general uses because of its inherent quality and utility just like other brands such as Surefire do.

While I was having dramas with the light, to my surprise based on what I knew and expected from Malkoff, I started to speculate there was some kind of deeper fault with the light. I was certain I'd explored basic contact issues enough. I began to lack confidence in the light, and that's a bad thing obviously, particularly if you rely on it.
Anyway I got it sorted by simply polishing the contact surface of the body and the light works amazingly well as a Malkoff should.
I now have 100% confidence in the very light I suspected had a fault.
This light is the kind of light I would want when things really mattered and the stakes were high.

From comments I've read of yours, I actually think this light (Hound dog 18650 XT) would be right up your alley. It's expensive and I can totally understand if that's a factor in its appeal or not, but it's a truly fantastic light.

I used my 6P quad 219b sw45k to light up these photos.

 

[vicv]

Yep, the 6P is an iconic incandescent light. I can understand the blasphemous aspect of my modifications.

I don't know about Gene not wanting to deal with overseas customers. I live on the other side of the world and he's been very accommodating.
As far as my latest Malkoff goes (Hound dog 18650 XT) , it uses the high/low ring but it's a solid state head and not a drop in. I had some issues initially with contact on low. I'd never experienced this with my other Malkoff lights. I sorted it out and it's good as gold now.
I've found the regulation to be great on this light. While I haven't used equipment to make measurements, it appears to hold solid and consistent output until the battery is spent.
I've no idea how long low lasts (activated by a spring loaded pin and resistor) but it's a fantastic system.
Malkoff stuff isn't really aimed at the hobbyist or casual user, it's more about rugged, reliable, and simple and effective gear for professional use. Of course it appeals to enthusiasts, collectors, and general uses because of its inherent quality and utility just like other brands such as Surefire do.

While I was having dramas with the light, to my surprise based on what I knew and expected from Malkoff, I started to speculate there was some kind of deeper fault with the light. I was certain I'd explored basic contact issues enough. I began to lack confidence in the light, and that's a bad thing obviously, particularly if you rely on it.
Anyway I got it sorted by simply polishing the contact surface of the body and the light works amazingly well as a Malkoff should.
I now have 100% confidence in the very light I suspected had a fault.
This light is the kind of light I would want when things really mattered and the stakes were high.

From comments I've read of yours, I actually think this light (Hound dog 18650 XT) would be right up your alley. It's expensive and I can totally understand if that's a factor in its appeal or not, but it's a truly fantastic light.

The hound dog does look very good yes and is the one that I would get. It should have perfectly flat output as I believe that light requires two cells correct? It's only when running a single lithium ion on an M61. Not his fault. That's just the reality of using a buck driver with a single cell. All I meant was that that particular part is a downside, but fans will call it a good thing. Because it's a malkoff I can only imagine.
As far as international shipping is concerned, the shipping prices are pretty outrageous. I know that shipping between US and Canada can be quite expensive, but not that expensive. Last time I checked I think it was about $70 to get an MD2. For shipping. But that is likely the shipping choice that he has gone for.

😁 for your blasphemy.

All of this said, for me it's about value and choice. With the Chinese lights, I can generally choose the emitter I want. The driver, colour. Ect. As long as build quality is good (they've come a very long ways) I'm happy. Obviously, American made doesn't mean anything to me as I'm Canadian. I don't think there are any Canadian light makers. And even if they did, that nationalistic pride of buying something made in your country is not something we generally feel. Not like Americans and the British do. I like surefire because no one else builds incandescent flashlights like they did. Their LED models are nothing special. Especially now as they have joined the lumen race, but still only want one or two modes. You can't make a light that has 1200+ lumens, only runs on primary cells, and charge what they do while having diminishing build quality each new model. 1000+ lumens is usually a temporary need, and a lower output higher than 5L is kinda nice to have. I'm OK with a two mode light. But high really should not be much more than 400 lm.

 

[F89]

The Hound dog in question (18650 XT) is a single 18650 powered light.

Yes, shipping is very expensive. 55 USD.
Living at the arse end of the world and having little good stuff manufactured here anymore, I came to terms with paying through the nose on shipping years ago.

Australia is pretty insane politically these days but maybe not as bad as Canada 😉Trudeau really is a ******* isn't he?
Let's not even get into what's running the USA currently.
Anyway, off on a tangent here and I'm not even sure if I'm aloud to point out the political insanity happening in great countries.

 

[F89]

I understand the value, variety, and choice factor of Chinese lights. It's hard to beat and there's some great stuff no doubt.
However, I'm Australian and I'd much rather support my American comrades, and British or Canadian for that matter. I'd love it if Australia had (any) some quality manufacturers like Malkoff, McGizmo or Surefire etc but we've got jack.
Plus the American gear (some) is just awesome.
I did buy some Chinese stuff recently which I won't go into and I'll try to forgive myself for later.

I really like the look of the new Surefire EDC1/2-DFT. I know I could knock up or buy a complete something similar and out perform it with Chinese gear a lot cheaper.

I often mod lights to my liking, even expensive Surefire etc but it's all part of the game for me.

 

[vicv]

The Hound dog in question (18650 XT) is a single 18650 powered light.

Ok. So it looks like it runs about 1 hour on full output, then drops out of regulation and gradually dims over the next 45 mins. And has a low vf led. So not bad but still not very flat regulation. This doesn't actually matter much to me, you'd hardly notice. Just that any other brand would be lambasted for that. Sure it's a great light

 

[hamhanded]

I understand the value, variety, and choice factor of Chinese lights. It's hard to beat and there's some great stuff no doubt.
However, I'm Australian and I'd much rather support my American comrades, and British or Canadian for that matter. I'd love it if Australia had (any) some quality manufacturers like Malkoff, McGizmo or Surefire etc but we've got jack.
Plus the American gear (some) is just awesome.
I did buy some Chinese stuff recently which I won't go into and I'll try to forgive myself for later.

I really like the look of the new Surefire EDC1/2-DFT. I know I could knock up or buy a complete something similar and out perform it with Chinese gear a lot cheaper.

I often mod lights to my liking, even expensive Surefire etc but it's all part of the game for me.

Sounds like there's a niche for Oz domestic maker.

I'd buy an Australian made light. I bet others would too. That branding works well for outdoor gear in the US. Let us know if you ever consider setting up shop!

 

[vicv]

I understand the value, variety, and choice factor of Chinese lights. It's hard to beat and there's some great stuff no doubt.
However, I'm Australian and I'd much rather support my American comrades, and British or Canadian for that matter. I'd love it if Australia had (any) some quality manufacturers like Malkoff, McGizmo or Surefire etc but we've got jack.
Plus the American gear (some) is just awesome.
I did buy some Chinese stuff recently which I won't go into and I'll try to forgive myself for later.

I really like the look of the new Surefire EDC1/2-DFT. I know I could knock up or buy a complete something similar and out perform it with Chinese gear a lot cheaper.

I often mod lights to my liking, even expensive Surefire etc but it's all part of the game for me.

Oh. I did not know you were Australian. That's basically just a Canadian that talks funny. Of course, to you, we would just be Australians that talk normal.

 

[letschat7]

Energizer designed some lights in Australia a long time ago.

 

[F89]

Sounds like there's a niche for Oz domestic maker.

I'd buy an Australian made light. I bet others would too. That branding works well for outdoor gear in the US. Let us know if you ever consider setting up shop!

As long as it's all machined, manufactured and assembled here, it'd be great. Great but expensive.
It always peeves me when companies make out like they're local but the truth lies in outsourcing. Plenty of that going on around the world.

 

[vicv]

As long as it's all machined, manufactured and assembled here, it'd be great. Great but expensive.
It always peeves me when companies make out like they're local but the truth lies in outsourcing. Plenty of that going on around the world.

Unfortunately, that is global markets. It would be difficult for some countries to manufacture everything that goes into a light. From mining the aluminum, to extruding it to machining it to finishing it. To create the semi conductors and everything for the driver, and the emitter itself. It sounds nice, but it's not very practical.

 

[F89]

I think it would be impractical to try and manufacture every little component here like the LEDs themself for example. But it wouldn't be out of the question to manufacture the light body locally out of local materials, design and make the electronics here and import components like the LED etc from the USA or Japan etc.

Malkoff for example is doing pretty much this in the USA. I'm sure he imports some components, but on the whole he's manufacturing it USA sourced, supplied and built for the majority of his product.

 

[vicv]

Ya I imagine he machines in America, American made aluminium tubing. Anodized as well. The LEDs I'm not sure where they are made. I know Cree is an American company but they do have manufacturing facilities in mainland China. I'm not sure where luminus gets their LEDs made. I believe the drivers, at least in the m61 series, are an off shelf. Buck driver made in China. I have put a few of them in lights myself. I don't know where the MacLeish reflectors are made. Or the PMMA optics. But yeah, I would say a good part of it is made there. All I meant was that yeah we can't really expect everything to be made in one country. That's the reason why trade was created by humanity thousands of years ago was some places just don't make everything One I will say though. It does look like America is trying to bring a lot of manufacturing back home. Which is definitely a good thing for all those people looking for good jobs.