Survival Preparedness

[Albany Tom]

Originally posted by Alaric Darconville:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Albany Tom:

Several years ago, one of the outdoor magazines put up a priority list of things to worry about in a survival situation. One of the questions was, "first aid, bleeding or breathing first?". Obviously, stopping serious bleeding is more important, as a person can bleed out in less than 15 seconds, while loss of breathing for that period of time is not fatal.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyone bleeding *that* severely will be seemingly beyond the help of all but the most trained and equipped personnel. It would seem that every major authority on first aid training indicates that checking for "consciousness, breathing, and bleeding" are the first three steps in emergency care.

Any EMT's out there have any input?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Short answer is "yes", for severe external bleeding, someone with little or no training can help a great deal. If someone has blood spraying or flowing out of an injury, apply direct pressure to the wound with some type of compress...if you have a bandage compress, of course use that, if not use anything handy, even your hand. Dealing with bleeding is an important part of any first aid course. Obviously, internal bleeding is a different issue.

For typical first aid courses, they teach a standard system, as you describe. The reason is so that people don't forget things that may not be obvious, so they have a system. Stopping serious bleeding is such an obvious thing, like catching someone that's falling, and so immediate, that it isn't listed. It's been discussed in every course I've taken, though. The article in question was bringing this to mind for those without any training, as would be the majority of people.

I don't want to get off topic (this is an excellent thread), the point of the post was to inspire people to think about priorities and consequences in advance, but I wanted to clarify. If someone is bleeding badly, do something!

There have been cases where people with no experience or training have saved peoples lives by using a Heimlich type manuver, or CPR, just from what they've seen on TV. I'm *NOT* suggesting that this is a good idea, but rather that these procedures are far more complicated than direct pressure. Use common sense.

 

[Albany Tom]

Virgo - I have the MSR 2, and love it. A friend has the Katadyne, and likes it a lot, too.

Grift - what the heck is chili-mac? I like chili. I like macn'cheese. I'm not sure if I'd like them mixed together...

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Originally posted by Albany Tom:

Several years ago, one of the outdoor magazines put up a priority list of things to worry about in a survival situation. One of the questions was, "first aid, bleeding or breathing first?". Obviously, stopping serious bleeding is more important, as a person can bleed out in less than 15 seconds, while loss of breathing for that period of time is not fatal.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyone bleeding *that* severely will be seemingly beyond the help of all but the most trained and equipped personnel. It would seem that every major authority on first aid training indicates that checking for "consciousness, breathing, and bleeding" are the first three steps in emergency care.

Any EMT's out there have any input?

 

[Charles Bradshaw]

Chili with macaroni, not necesarily mac and cheese.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

grift,
I've been needing one for awhile. I was really into getting the good stuff (gear-wise), and then I ran into this here flashlight forum. Needless to say, my finances have never been the same since ;-)
Tom, I'm pretty sure I'll go with the MSR 2 also. Everything they make is great. I use the Whisperlite Internationale they make and the dromedaries for water storage. I really like the shower nozzle they make for the dromedaries, and the Waterworks II is supposed to screw directly onto them for easy filling.
Also, I haven't tried it yet, but the chili-mac is supposed to be really good. I've had a couple people recommend it to me, including some of the employees of MTN. House. Think I'll put in my order to them next week, and will try to get some things I haven't tried. (like chili-mac and some of the breakfast foods.)
Charles, this turned into a great thread for info and idea exchange. Thanks!

 

[Albany Tom]

Ok, time to order some food! I will try chili-mac AND some breakfast food.

virgo - the MSR 2 also screws into a wide mouth 32 oz nalgene bottle. I bought one of the smoked lexan ones, and it works great!

I was going to get a pre-filter for mine, but the suggestions I've read were to collect the water in a bag or something, then wait for the stuff to settle if it's muddy, then filter. Seems like a good idea to me, but so far I've been lucky and have have always found non-cloudy water.

 

[Charles Bradshaw]

Your welcome, Virgo. I am glad it worked out this way also. I figured that it was mostly non-light, so I picked the Cafe to start it in.

To touch on the topic of light, I put LED bulbs in my incandescant lights. They are bright enough for my needs, and have the advantage of vastly extending runtime (as we all know). While I do this, primarily due to my monthly income, it factors into this topic as well.

 

[Lux Luthor]

You guys buying MRE's, have you considered just making your own meals? You can buy numerous dried grains, beans, etc. and make stuff from scratch. I believe the key to decent flavor is in the spicing.

I've done a little bit of this with some rice dishes and gotten pretty good results, but I'm no expert.

Anybody out there have any more experience with this? Also, what about using food dehydrators?

 

[Charles Bradshaw]

Lux,

We are trying to worst case for 31 days. This means limited water supply and fuel for cooking. Unless you are lucky enough to have an old style natural gas stove/oven, you have to have electricity to use your bloody gas stove.

The least amount of cooking fuel to do the job, is the best. (don't even think about gasoline stoves or lanterns inside!!)

Of course, a variety of food options is best, for varying situations. 31 days of nothing but ramen noodles, and you won't touch them for the rest of your life.

 

[brightnorm]

[No message]

 

[brightnorm]

Originally posted by Lux Luthor:
.....For water storage, I won't use 20 gal. or larger containers. You cannot move them. The 7 gallon Reliance water carriers at Walmart work very well. They can be carried with one hand and thrown into a car or pickup, and they stack 2 rows high, and fit squarely into a closet. It makes no sense to me to use larger containers than these.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lux,

I agree that the Reliance containers are ideal.
I've been using the 4 and 7 gal. containers
since the 2000 Millenium Bug scare. I add a few drops of common household bleach, date the containers and refill every 6 months or so, but I hear conflicting time estimates for safe water storage and would love to get some accurate info. Also, whether the bleach is advisable.

After you've stored the water for a while can you detect a slight plastic or other odor when you open the containers? I researched water storage before buying the Reliance containers and the general opinion was very positive, but I can't help thinking about the blue dye locked up in all that plastic. How do we know that the containers are chemically inert, and that no plastic or dye can leech into the water during storage?

For indoor cooking there is a flat, one burner approx 3" high rather elegant looking mini stove that operates off a replaceable butane (not propane) cylinder. It is sold in different colors under different names,(which I've forgotten). I gave mine away after the Millenium bug bugged out and I'm now thinking of buying one again. I put it right on top of the kitchen range and I think it's quite safe as long as you crack a window. Used in this manner it's no more likely to cause a fire than an actual stove burner.

One of the biggest problems during a power outage is people's (not Flashaholics) tendency to use candles. I was in a fire once and will never forget the terror of it. We were trapped on the 14th floor and were all very, very lucky that no one was hurt.

After that I became a "crusader" against the use of candles. When the Millenium bug approached I led a campaign in my apartment building against candles. I devised a plan to provide adequate light for all the common areas and all the apartments (the board vetoed a generator), and this was before CPF and my awareness of LEDS as a viable light source.

I envy you and all the other Flashaholics who can evacuate if it really hits the fan. Unfortunately, that isn't a realistic option for me and many others in my location.

Brightnorm

 

[Lux Luthor]

BN,

I've stored water in the Reliance containers for several months, and didn't detect any odors after opening them up. They're made of food grade plastic, so they're *supposed to be* free of contaminants. I did wash them out thouroughly first with soap and water, and I think I let some plain tap water sit in there for a few days so that anything in the containers would leech into that. Then I filled them up again.

Butane is nice for indoor cooking. I have an MSR pocket rocket that works pretty well, as long as it's not too cold. If it gets to around freezing, it doesn't work well at all, so if that's a factor, I would recommend something else. I've cooked indoors many times with my Trangia 27 alcohol stove, and I think it's very safe. I just don't run it for a long time, or use it in a small room. I've coooked indoors with liquid fuel stoves (Primus, Coleman) under the same conditions, but those stoves always make me a little more nervous.

Candles are about as safe motorcycles. In the hands of a responsible person, there's nothing wrong with them, but so many people are idiotic and wreckless. Those large wide candles if put into a suitable container to catch spills are perfectly safe. I think a lot of people tend to use those dinner type candles, which tip over easily, and they put them near curtains or something flammable. What I would also be concerned about is cheaply made kerosene lanterns. They will eventually leak if the tanks aren't made from a solid piece of metal. Otherwise, I would say they're safer than candles since the flame is not exposed.

I can understand you not wanting these things used in a high rise building, though, especially since you've been through a fire.

 

[MicroE]

BN---The length of time that you can store water also depends upon the storage conditions and the quality of the water. Yesterday I dumped out and refilled 10 gallons of water that had been in storage in plastic containers for 2+ years. I use well water and stored it in a dark, cold room in the basement. The water looked and smelled fine even after this extended storage period.---Marc

 

[Charles Bradshaw]

Brightnorm, I have looked at those butane canister stoves. I have never been able to figure out where to get replacement canisters for them. So I never got one.

 

[B@rt]

Originally posted by brightnorm:

One of the biggest problems during a power outage is people's (not Flashaholics) tendency to use candles. I was in a fire once and will never forget the terror of it. We were trapped on the 14th floor and were all very, very lucky that no one was hurt.
Brightnorm

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've never(

) been in a serious power outage, but, I have been in a fire...

I agree with Brightnorm about safe lighting ... There are safer alternatives available, for roughly the same price.(If you shop smart

)

 

[Quickbeam]

Havn't read the entire thread, so this may have already been covered, but safe HEAT is very important - I think we were lucky here - only 3 people around Charlotte died during the ice storm due to CO (carbon monoxide) poisoning.

One person was running a generator on their sunporch (a glass enclosed porch attached to the house). A window to the inside of the house was cracked open and let in the fumes. A second person was running a gas grill inside the house with insufficient ventilation. The third was burining charcoal in their wood burning fireplace. None of them had CO detectors.

A bunch of people went to the hosipital due to CO but survived. Mostly people bringing their charcoal or gas grills inside in an attempt to heat their appartments.

Our fireplace is gas, non-electric ignition, sealed and vented. Heats by convection of the inside air around the combustion chamber. It's mostly decorative and not very efficient without a blower, but we used it to heat the house during the 2 1/2 day outage.

 

[James S]

I can see another problem during a power outage, all the CO detectors I've owned have been line powered, so even if you did have one it might not be able to help you. (unless you're using the same generator to power it as you are using to set it off)

I actually removed a CO detector from this house, as there are no gas appliances, everything is electric!

 

[2dogs]

I goofed and missed this thread when it was fresh. I've lived through the snow strom of 74, flood 82, e-quake of 89, studied many more. CERT instuctor for several years, avid outdoorsman, hunter ,camper, father and husband, retired fire fighter. I've organised the following
1 Water ( storage, purification)
2 Shelter (includes home repair)
3 Fire ( heat, light)
4 Food (storage, aquisition, special needs)
5 Health (1st aid, sanitation)
6 Security ( low profile, defense)

While teaching CERT the most often asked question was how long. How long will a disaster go on, how long should we be prepared for? The answer was unsettling, as long as it takes. People need security and the best way to provide it is via practice. I fully agree with the idea of simulation of a disaster. Agree on a time (soon), but don't prepare. Just say " Today we had a disaster- no running water, no power, no phones (don't unplug the phone, screen your calls). Take notes, critique afterward. I consider our family to be quite prepared but we learn eachtime we do this.
One problem that doesn't have a good answer is what to do about the neighbors. We have "extra" water and food for them (they don't know it), but only so much. If you do give out food mantain a very low profile, nothing visable.
One last thing, really the first for us is our faith in God. Without faith survival would mean nothing, just another day on earth. With faith in God we know that there is a plan. Don't forget this when helping your neighbors out during a disaster, help them to have faith.

 

[2dogs]

Most bleeding ca be controlled with a combination of direct pressure, and elevation. A pressure point may help. All simple techniques. A new product that is popular with military types ishttp://www.z-medica.com/. I have just heard of this product, no personal experience. Lots of good reviews.

 

[James S]

Back to bleeding, has anyone else been sold on the value of crazy glue to close smaller wounds? I know it sounds crazy

I was sold on it when I took a big gouge out of the side of my foot while making a poorly aimed jump into a swimming pool. A paramedic friend of mine spent quite a while convincing me that it wouldn't be a bad thing to do, basically then just filled the wound with crazy glue. It didn't sting or cause any irritation but allowed me to swim for the rest of the day without any further pain or bleeding. It flaked out a day later or so and the small wound healed normally.

It's rather ridged, so it wouldn't do for wounds in bending areas or where pressure on it would cause further problems (like a normal foot injury) I don't think it would work where you are still bleeding, but after the bleeding is stopped, if you don't have sutures or medical tape to hold it together this can provide a temporary solution to keep it from opening back up.

You shouldn't seal up a large wound as it may need to drain as it heals, but it might keep you going for a little longer and that could make all the difference. Anyway, a tube of crazy glue in the BOB wouldn't add much to the expense or the weight. Remember to change it out every so often, it doesn't last forever in those little tubes.

-James