Where do "real" Eneloops come from?
- Thread starter Rosoku Chikara
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Whether or not the batteries are the same, better, or worse quality remains to be seen. This will be up to Panasonics quality control and the working conditions at the plant they will be manufactured at. Eneloops are not the only good NIMH brand on the market. I have been using Eveready Recharge, Kodaks, Rayovacs, and Powerex cells and they have been working great for me. Some of the Kodak and Rayovac batteries I have are over 7 years old and they are still going strong. Most of my new batteries are the Duraloops and the ion core 2400 MaH cells. I will miss these if they go away. The public for the most part will not notice since most people have never heard of Eneloops. Eneloops are poorly marketed and you can no longer buy them in brick and mortar stores around this area (Raleigh, NC). Only Wolf Camera sold them that I am aware of, and they are out of business here.
Costco sells Eneloops (at least in Canada). And judging by the fact they sell out with a backorder of over a month whenever they put them on sale on-line (like the last time I bought some last year), they're a well-known quality brand by at least some of the public.
Chinese Eneloops may eventually reach the quality we expect from the Japanese ones, but that will be a long time if Panasonic doesn't own the technology to manufacture them the way they are manufactured from the current plant.
I'll wait for the long-term test results. In the meantime, I'll buy Duraloops or look for the FDK brand. Luckily, I still have about 3 dozen unopened Eneloops, which should do me for awhile.
Chinese Eneloops may eventually reach the quality we expect from the Japanese ones, but that will be a long time if Panasonic doesn't own the technology to manufacture them the way they are manufactured from the current plant.
I'll wait for the long-term test results. In the meantime, I'll buy Duraloops or look for the FDK brand. Luckily, I still have about 3 dozen unopened Eneloops, which should do me for awhile.
mcnair55
Flashlight Enthusiast
Please can you qualify your source of information that Chinese Eneloop will not be up to the quality of the Japenese versions as this intrigues me for a number of reasons.
It's pretty obvious, if you understand even the basics of how manufacturing works. But if you think it's so easy to replicate a manufacturing process you don't even own, with new employees who haven't done it before, why don't you make some Eneloops from scratch and let us all know how they turn out? Looking forward to it...
Richwouldnt
Enlightened
Panasonic is already the premier, and largest, maker of Lithium Ion batteries in the world and they currently make the highest true capacity 18650 batteries that you can buy. I find it hard to believe that they would intentionally start turning out sub par LSD NiMH batteries under the Eneloop or Panasonic brand names. Be like cutting off a portion of your anatomy because you enjoy the pain.
I also suspect that they have the battery engineering expertise to reverse engineer the Eneloop technology if they want to.
I also suspect that they have the battery engineering expertise to reverse engineer the Eneloop technology if they want to.Panasonic is already the premier, and largest, maker of Lithium Ion batteries in the world and they currently make the highest true capacity 18650 batteries that you can buy. I find it hard to believe that they would intentionally start turning out sub par LSD NiMH batteries under the Eneloop or Panasonic brand names. Be like cutting off a portion of your anatomy because you enjoy the pain.
Nope. Patents. FDK owns the only LSD factory in Japan. Every one was buying their LSD's from this factory.
Power Me Up
Enlightened
Thanks for posting all of that info Rosoku!
mcnair55
Flashlight Enthusiast
Just as I thought you are presuming. I very much understand the manufacturing basics but it is very evident many here do not understand the complex nature of awarding huge contracts and the financial penalties involved. All I am constantly reading is China made means not as good.
Panasonic is already the premier, and largest, maker of Lithium Ion batteries in the world and they currently make the highest true capacity 18650 batteries that you can buy. I find it hard to believe that they would intentionally start turning out sub par LSD NiMH batteries under the Eneloop or Panasonic brand names. Be like cutting off a portion of your anatomy because you enjoy the pain.
Nicely put
@gallon Regarding patents, they don't last forever, (I think 14 years) and often protect only a portion of the manufacturing process, and sometimes slight changes can get around the patent. These patents may already be nine years old. From wikipedia- "LSD NiMH batteries were introduced in November 2005 by Sanyo,[27] marketing them under the brand "eneloop"."
Recently we have seen Duracell come out with idk three different batteries in the last year or two. Iron core... three year... five year, etc. Perhaps Panasonic is coming out with a newer... better eneloop.
I have a friend, he is an engineer, inventor, manufacturer. He eventually sold out to a larger company who hired him as a consultant with plans to increase volume of production by moving production to China. His comment was that it was a pleasure to work with the Chinese because they "will listen. They WANT to learn!" Other companies, in other countries he dealt with were arrogant, and all ready "know it all."
And put another way....
maybe the new Eneloops will be better than the old Eneloops, and I'll start buying them when independent tests show that they are better.
mcnair55
Flashlight Enthusiast
Nicely put
@gallon Regarding patents, they don't last forever, (I think 14 years) and often protect only a portion of the manufacturing process, and sometimes slight changes can get around the patent. These patents may already be nine years old. From wikipedia- "LSD NiMH batteries were introduced in November 2005 by Sanyo,[27] marketing them under the brand "eneloop"."
Recently we have seen Duracell come out with idk three different batteries in the last year or two. Iron core... three year... five year, etc. Perhaps Panasonic is coming out with a newer... better eneloop.
I have a friend, he is an engineer, inventor, manufacturer. He eventually sold out to a larger company who hired him as a consultant with plans to increase volume of production by moving production to China. His comment was that it was a pleasure to work with the Chinese because they "will listen. They WANT to learn!" Other companies, in other countries he dealt with were arrogant, and all ready "know it all."
The very same experience i have found as well,the company i work for have many parts out sourced to various countries around the globe and if they want our business boy they better be on the money with quality because our brand name is priceless.
ps Mr Poppy empty your pm box please.
I am actually totally shocked in the year 2014 you are actually not going to give the Chinese made Eneloops a go.
You must be easily shocked.
GoVegan
Enlightened
Here's a an article from Aug 2012 that also gives the same details (in Japanese) about Panasonic's acquisition of Sanyo and so as to not violate US antitrust laws the eneloop production was sold off to FDK (a Fujitsu subsidiary). It also shows that both Fujitsu's HR-3UTA and eneloop HR-3UTGB are exactly the same, the chargers too.
http://kaden.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/column_review/kdnreview/20120821_554048.html
Actually I seem to remember reading this article around that time.
http://kaden.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/column_review/kdnreview/20120821_554048.html
Actually I seem to remember reading this article around that time.
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Rosoku Chikara
Enlightened
Actually, I don't think you will find this statement written in that "article."
As a matter of fact, the author finds some small differences in electrical properties and concludes in a typically in-explicit Japanese way that each cell type has its own strengths/weaknesses in performance, so the reader to can determine which cell is best for their own application.
While he suggests that while very minor, there are subtle differences in performance, he does "prove" from evidence of microscopic press defects, that both cells share the same metal parts, and therefore most likely come off of the same manufacturing line.
For proof of identical performance (extreme similarity) see HKJ's recent review and new battery "comparator." (Hard to imagine curves any more similar, at least never by chance.)
HJK's conclusion: "These cells has exactly same performance as the newest Eneloop batteries, i.e. a very good performance."
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ACruceSalus
Enlightened
Yes, I picked them up from Target a few weeks ago for $11.99 and later found them on line at ToysRUs for $2 less. I had a week to price match but wasn't able to get back before my time ran out. $9.99 for 4 of these would have been real nice.
ChrisGarrett
Flashlight Enthusiast
Still, you did pretty well doing 'cash and carry.'
I've got a quad sitting in my 'bug out box' in a Klarus P2A 2xAA light and my JetBeam BA20 2xAA light, replacing regular Gen. 2 Eneloops. My other quad is waiting for a one year 'discharge test.'
Toys R Us has run specials on them, but $10-$12 for higher cap LSD batteries that 'might be' XX/Pros is a pretty good deal if you look at Ebay and compare them to Sanyo labeled XX/Pros.
Chris
ACruceSalus
Enlightened
Chris,
I agree this was a good deal.
Also I've owned multiple Panasonic cordless phones for about 25 years and trust their brand. I believe that they will continue to produce top quality goods even though manufacturing is moved to another county.
I see two possible main problems though. The first is that there may be bugs to work out when the factory is initially opened such as communication problems. In fact depending on how they handle communications this may continue indefinitely. Are they having problems in this and other areas? I don't know and unless someone has inside information then it's just speculation. As they say the proof is in the pudding. My other concern is that they don't own or can't use the technology that has been used to make the eneloop brand. But given Panasonics experience and reputation this is probably not a problem. So I'll wait for HKJ's and any other long term tests to see if the quality slips. I suspect that it won't.
I'd also say that to me it really doesn't matter what technology is used as long as the attributes (price, dependability, etc.) is as good or better than the previous ones. Even the Sony owned eneloops have gone through generations that have improved.
If nothing else I find this information interesting but some of it points to risks that could possibly degrade quality in these batteries.
I agree this was a good deal.
Also I've owned multiple Panasonic cordless phones for about 25 years and trust their brand. I believe that they will continue to produce top quality goods even though manufacturing is moved to another county.
I see two possible main problems though. The first is that there may be bugs to work out when the factory is initially opened such as communication problems. In fact depending on how they handle communications this may continue indefinitely. Are they having problems in this and other areas? I don't know and unless someone has inside information then it's just speculation. As they say the proof is in the pudding. My other concern is that they don't own or can't use the technology that has been used to make the eneloop brand. But given Panasonics experience and reputation this is probably not a problem. So I'll wait for HKJ's and any other long term tests to see if the quality slips. I suspect that it won't.
I'd also say that to me it really doesn't matter what technology is used as long as the attributes (price, dependability, etc.) is as good or better than the previous ones. Even the Sony owned eneloops have gone through generations that have improved.
If nothing else I find this information interesting but some of it points to risks that could possibly degrade quality in these batteries.
ACruceSalus
Enlightened
Oops I meant Sanyo eneloops but I can't seem to edit that post.
