BAN HID headlights, FINE users, JAIL converters!

idleprocess said:

While the Mark I eyeball is no light meter (a fact for which we should all be thankful), if it can't determine any significant difference between beam patterns from a halogen bulb in a projector assembly and a HID module in the same assembly, I suspect that the motoring public cannot either.

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Where did you find this data? I was under the impression that since the light source is oriented differently in relation to the projector lens, HIDs would not focus correctly in halogen projectors.


[edit] Boy, am I a dumbass, haha. I think my humor detector is broken...

cmaylodm said:

I don't really understand what you're saying. If your car comes with HIDs stock, then they are good to go

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My point was that not all the "properly designed" HID setups that come stock on cars look like that.

Think you could get a wall beamshot and post it up here?

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Probably... How far away is the car from the wall in that shot?

Hmm, maybe 2-3 car lengths? I'd like to see what some other HID setups look like.

I think you guys are saying the same thing in different ways.

It is illegal to retrofit HID bulbs into lights originally designed to use a halogen bulb. Changing a headlight that originally used a halogen bulb with an HID bulb will result in a beam pattern that has strange artifacts that will result in glare to oncoming drivers, which could momentarily blind them. A headlight that was designed to be used specifically with an HID bulb will have a correct beam pattern that does not have strange artifacts that will blind oncoming drivers.

The correct way to convert a car with halogen headlights to use HID headlights would be to change the headlight assemblies to ones designed to be used with HID bulbs to begin with. If the vehicle manufacturer never made a headlight assembly for your car model that uses an HID bulb then you'll need to be creative like that owner of the Honda that cmaylodm linked to.

My car has HID projector headlights from the factory and they're great. The beam pattern looks almost like the second picture that cmaylodm posted above. The light is nice and bright and very evenly distributed in front of the car. My wife's Toyota Sienna, on the other hand, has comparatively poor headlight performance compared to my car. The beam pattern has hotspots and strange artifacts throughout the beam and it isn't very bright to begin with. The problem is that my wife is perfectly content with the long life bulbs that were factory installed some 8 years ago and will not allow me to change them to Osram SilverStars (that are not blue tinted like the Silvania Silverstars).

I don't know about you guys, but I've yet to encounter a HID equiped vehicle(whether it be factory or not) that doesn't make me squint from the glare! Don't get me wrong, it's not enough to be unsafe to me(IMO) but the point is, everyone is always discussing/arguing about excessive glare on conversions kits, while the factory one(for the most part) aren't much better as far as glare is concearned! I know there are exceptions, some HID lights are vertually glare free, I've just haven't run across any yet!

lighthead09 said:

The last time I checked, our eyes evolved around a yellow star, not a blue one.

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Just a note, there is no sun out at night and rods are most sensitive at ~498 nm. Doesn't take away from many of your points but certainly changes the whole "color" argument.

How many cheap Hondas have you seen drive by with bad (or wanna-be) HIDs that are deep blue or even purple? Those drivers should be pulled over, lined up on the highway median, and shot twice. Shot once for blinding everyone and shot the second time for being so tacky.

cmaylodm said:

What is the problem with having colored headlights? Sure, it looks retarded, but its not your car. I just don't see how having tinted light is going to cause all sorts of accidents, at least compared to those people putting HIDs into halogen reflectors/projectors.

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In general using an incandescent lamp with a filter to remove light output is a stupid idea. The very heavily filtered/blue bulbs are producing significatly fewer lumens than the stock headlights -- potentially a problem for the driver being able to see obstacles on the road etc.

Others, such as the Sylvania Silverstars actually match lumen output of stock headlamps, but they accomplish this by running the filament hotter to compensate for the filter lumen loss. This makes the headlights much more prone to failure (and conveniently [for Sylvania] increases the frequency of buying replacement lamps... )

IMO though the main problem with most HID lights is not the color, but rather the sheer intensity. The purple/blue halogens are IMO ridiculous looking, but not particularly bad for glare (many of the lumens have actually been removed after all) -- worse than standard headlights, but no by much. The HIDs on the other hand I personally find much worse as they are much more intense -- they produce significantly more overall output, and emit their light from a smaller point-source than the filament of an incan lamp. They also have beam distributions that tend to throw much more light to the sides -- increasing the chance of tall vehicles (such as "raised" trucks, or SUVs) hitting drivers of sedans on the opposite side of the road squarely in the eyes with the beam. Also, even the best "cutoff" systems do nothing when a HID-light based vehicle is say cresting a hill that I happen to be climbing (in the opposite direction).

And that is for legitimate OEM HID's. Even lamps that are within legal specifications are still a problem with they're installed in high vehicles, and I happen to be driving a sedan. Illegal HID retrofits are dramatically worse, still.

+1 on trucks having terrible headlights.

A truck might have a great cutoff with an awesome beam pattern, aimed to DOT standards, and it will still blind the crap out of someone in a regular sedan, just because the light is so high up. But, since HID projectors are still mainly in higher end luxury cars, most trucks have terrible halogen reflectors.

Then you get the whole truck crowd who just doesn't give a flying **** about anyone else, and drops HIDs in their reflectors. I see so many people here (but mostly on HIDplanet) who are like "I drive a dodge ram, what are good 9006 HID kits I can get? I don't really care if it has a cutoff, that's just for luxury cars; I just want bright lights"

I hate HID retrofits with a passion. I've run illegal lights in the past with no issues, and have passed inspection every year with the lights, because I've always insured the aim is correct. Infact I ran the aim slightly lower then spec when I was running 80/130w H4 in my old stationwagon, which had a pretty good reflector/lens design as well. However I'm ashamed to admit my beater had blue tinted high beam, H3 , globes in it. And they are badly aimed as well, only had it a week and haven't had a chance to sort the lights out yet. At least my low beams are white, H3 again. Even if they are the cheapest thing dad could get at the time, needed them fast.

Are bad HID retrofits being enforced anywhere? There sure aren't around here. It is continuing to get worse and worse. I see cars with OEM HID lights that aren't so bad, unless they are on an incline. I guess autolevelers aren't required in the US. But, it is the 'kewl d00dz" that are the serious problem I keep seeing lots of deep blue, purple, and even green. One car was so bad that their HIDs were flickering back and forth, not unlike strobes. Unfortunately, we probably wont see pressure for existing laws to be enforced until some member of the Senate or Congress has a kid that is killed by oncoming HID glare.

I've heard of people getting tickets for HID retrofits here in Australia.

HID converting low beam is illegal here in Sweden, and should not (but does sometimes) get past the annual safety inspection our cars have to go through. Most people remove the kits during the inspection, and put them back on after...
Getting pulled over by the police for an inspection by the side of the road is not common, but it does happen, and if the cop didn't get his doughnut that day he might be cranky enough to hand out a ticket and send your car for another inspection after it has been reequipped with legal lights.

rushnrockt said:

Just a note, there is no sun out at night and rods are most sensitive at ~498 nm. Doesn't take away from many of your points but certainly changes the whole "color" argument.

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You're not using rods unless there's very little light. The idea of headlights, is to put out a large amount of light. Hence, you'll be using your cones, which evolved and thus work best at a sunlight colour temperature.

Don't get me wrong, rods are great, when you're using moonlight. However, if you're using any kind of light, then you're not using moonlight, so rods don't come into it.

Jarl said:

You're not using rods unless there's very little light. The idea of headlights, is to put out a large amount of light. Hence, you'll be using your cones, which evolved and thus work best at a sunlight colour temperature.

Don't get me wrong, rods are great, when you're using moonlight. However, if you're using any kind of light, then you're not using moonlight, so rods don't come into it.

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You are using both actually. You don't have to have moonlight to be using rods, as there is a range of wavelengths that they are responsive too, just like cones do not just have the high responsiveness to a particular sunlight wavelength. If you were to be using only cones in the night driving, your peripheral vision that is outside of the beam pattern (possibly just the brightest portions of it) would be non-existent. You will have trade-offs no matter which color/intensity you go for.

Jarl said:

You're not using rods unless there's very little light. The idea of headlights, is to put out a large amount of light. Hence, you'll be using your cones, which evolved and thus work best at a sunlight colour temperature

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Night driving vision is neither photopic nor scotopic, it is mesopic. If you do not know those terms, go learn 'em, then you'll understand why your assertion regarding rods, cones, and "sunlight color temperature" from headlamps is wrong. While you're at it, study up on spectral power distribution and color rendering index, and then you'll understand why the claim that HID headlamps produce light that is "close to sunlight" is almost totally spurious.

Since the US is in the stone age regarding lights.

Projector lamps (halogen) are pretty dangerous. Why? you have a cutoff bounding up/down, unless you have automatic leveling (which isn't required in the USA, it should be)
HID projectors are even more dangerous. Why? they have 2-3x as much light, have a stronger blue output, and aren't required to have dynamic auto leveling (which is more expensive than automatic leveling)
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j254/Ahmed_17/HID Retro/Retrofit18.jpg
Now the worst is someone who retrofits a (5000K or higher) 50watt HID projector capsule into SAE dual beam reflectors (the coup de grace would be 9004/HB1 reflectors). That is just way beyond gross stupidity/negligence.


Why are [up] filtered bulbs bad? Beyond being idiotic in concept for low beams (knock yourself out with horribly underperforming high beams) they upset the visual cortex of other drivers. They don't stimulate the pupil contraction as much as they should. It is effectively lying to the other road users.

If you want to down-CCT filter your fog lights, like the last generation Lexus GS300/400 (included with option HID reflector low beams), go right ahead.
I wonder if these would fit the last generation G35? (combined 'fog lights' & high beams, low mounted in the 'catamaran' fenders)
http://www.rallylights.com/images/CPBALLOONAW_lg.jpg

MichaelW, you obviously have a good understanding of the actual (not advertised/hyped) factors beyond photometry that go into the efficacy of vehicular forward illumination. Most people don't. You obviously also understand the critical differences between upfiltering and downfiltering with respect to the SPD of the light source. Those yellow snap-on balloons are a fine idea — basically the same selective yellow glass balloon that was permanently attached to French-market H4 bulbs from 1972 through 1993 — but there's a problem with how they're made. The stainless steel clamp band wasn't carefully designed; it blocks a significant part of the high beam filament from the "view" of the reflector, so while low beam (or in your case fog beam) performance is unimpeded, high beam performance is very substantially degraded. This would not be difficult to fix with a redesign of the snap-on clamp band, but I don't know if such a redesign will ever take place.

Have you ever seen the Philips "3000K" D2R or D2S burner? It gives a selective yellow light of remarkably good quality.

These guys?
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/RetrofitSource08/3000Kbeam.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/RetrofitSource08/3000KD2S.jpg
http://www.theretrofitsource.com/Bulbs.html

http://store.candlepower.com/clyeba.html
If they can handle 100w bulbs, one could potentially install a 80/70 Hella yellowstar watt H4, but one of those Osram 70/65 watt would probably work better in modern plastic housings.

It is hard to tell if this one use a dichroic filter (page 16)
http://www.myhellalights.com/brochure.pdf

No, those apear to be no-name generic bulbs of just-take-a-guess quality. So, almost certainly, are the ones in the Hella brochure you linked to. The Philips ones are P/N 85122YX and 85126YX. Can be relatively difficult to find, but they are out there, and it's worth insisting on the name-brand product.

The selective yellow snap-on balloons don't fit Osram H4 bulbs, because the Osram base is made differently and there's nothing for the balloon to clip onto.

The Hella Yellow Stars used to be all Philips made, but that hasn't been true for quite awhile. The reason why it's remarkable that the Philips yellow D2S and D2R work as well as they do is that absorption filtration (done well) usually gives a substantially better result than dichroic filtration (done well) if the goal is to get selective yellow light from a normally-white bulb. But that "done well" part is important; there have been some bulbs made with absorption filter coatings applied directly to the bulb glass itself. These generally don't work well (poor light quality and beam focus suffers). But every now and then around here I see a car driving around with pretty good selective yellow light coming from the halogen headlights. Saw a current-model (U.S.-spec) Civic sedan just the other day, but he was headed the other direction in traffic so I couldn't scrutinize his lights and see what he'd installed.

I've seen some surprisingly good results with absorption filter coatings field-applied to lamp lenses. The coating has to be picked and formulated carefully, of course. But there's an advantage in that you can then use whatever plain clear-glass bulb you want.