Aluminum vs Copper vs Brass

Candle Power Forums

Help Support Candle Power:

Copper is good at absorbing and conducting heat but not so good at radiating that heat away into another body.
.

Standard Emissivity tables suggest that in real-world situations, there is little difference between Copper and Aluminium.

HIGHLY POLISHED - Al 3 times better
Aluminum, highly polished and degreased 0.027
Copper, highly mirror polished, 0.008

POLISHED - no difference
Aluminum, semi-polished 0.05
Copper, polished 0.05

OXIDISED - little difference
Aluminum, anodized 0.776
Copper, oxidized 0.65

 
Standard Emissivity tables suggest that in real-world situations, there is little difference between Copper and Aluminium.

HIGHLY POLISHED - Al 3 times better
Aluminum, highly polished and degreased 0.027
Copper, highly mirror polished, 0.008

POLISHED - no difference
Aluminum, semi-polished 0.05
Copper, polished 0.05

OXIDISED - little difference
Aluminum, anodized 0.776
Copper, oxidized 0.65

Interesting!
 
The problem with highly polished aluminum is that oxidation starts immediately when the polishing operation is finished :(

I would guess that a highly polished aluminum slug, plated with electroless nickel, and polished again might be an excellent thermal conductor.

Taking that one step further, electroless nickel immersion gold plating (ENIG) might be even better. A thin nickel layer is applied to the part, about 3-6 μm, followed by an even thinner gold plating of .05 μm. Sounds like a good project for WQuiles :D
 
The problem with highly polished aluminum is that oxidation starts immediately when the polishing operation is finished :(

I would guess that a highly polished aluminum slug, plated with electroless nickel, and polished again might be an excellent thermal conductor.

Taking that one step further, electroless nickel immersion gold plating (ENIG) might be even better. A thin nickel layer is applied to the part, about 3-6 μm, followed by an even thinner gold plating of .05 μm. Sounds like a good project for WQuiles :D


Conduction does not equal emission. See below.


***

Standard Emissivity tables suggest that in real-world situations, there is little difference between Copper and Aluminium.

...

***
 
Its a daft analogy IMV

Greater importance is the designs ability to radiate the heat away.

If you don't shift the heat be it ALu or Cu whatever slug you use will heatload to the point you will have a temp overload.

Copper is a better transferrer of heat
Aluminium is a better radiator of heat

Neither are any good unless you design to transfer that heat out to the air.



I don't know the percentages, but I'd be willing to make a major bet that conduction to air/water/your hand/etc dwarfs radiant emission of energy from an led based, metal bodied light.


If RADIATING the heat away is so important, why are you mixing that up with CONDUCTING the heat into the air?

:)


That's what I love about these heat transfer threads. There's so much great info mixed with so much wrong info.
 
I've expirimented with and built a lot of different types of cooling on computer systems. From simple aircooling with relatively small heatsinks and jet-like noisy fans to water cooling, peltier cooling, dry-ice cooling (-80C /86F) and even phase-change type cooling (like refridgerators) at -55C / -60F.

Radiation of heat is as
Standard Emissivity tables suggest that in real-world situations, there is little difference between Copper and Aluminium.

HIGHLY POLISHED - Al 3 times better
Aluminum, highly polished and degreased 0.027
Copper, highly mirror polished, 0.008

POLISHED - no difference
Aluminum, semi-polished 0.05
Copper, polished 0.05

OXIDISED - little difference
Aluminum, anodized 0.776
Copper, oxidized 0.65
stated, not really different from copper to aluminium. And is just not enough to keep the light cool, unless you can spread the heat to a large enough surface area (pumping heat with liquids or liquids/gas like in heatpipes).

In terms of Conduction, the facts are easy (~220 for alu ~370 for copper), copper wins by a mile. Silver (~400) and special Silver/Copper alloys (up to ~500) are even better, but more expensive. And after the metals you arive at very exotic (some engineered) carbon based materials (like diamond). But, cheaper solutions like heatpipes as used in CPU coolers nowadays are 50 times more "conductive" as copper.

The formula of heat transfer by convection is a Q = k * A * dT

k is a factor which depends on the coolant, surface type etc. A is the area and dT is the time.

k is more or less set. The materials used are fixed, the coolant is fixed and the finishes are fixed (design of the light on the exterior). The surface area is one of the factors that you can change, by for example, making fins of the normaly smooth maglite head. Or, conduction the heat to a larger area (like the handle).
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. Product prices and availability are accurate as of the date/time indicated and are subject to change.
. . . . But, cheaper solutions like heatpipes as used in CPU coolers nowadays are 50 times more "conductive" as copper. . . .

I can't agree more ! I'm just assembling my SST-90 searchlight and for the first time ever, I'm using a Heat-pipe heatsink. It's a two-tube CPU cooler rated up to 60 watts.

The LED mounts on a copper block 30x30x5 and I'm amazed how cool the LED stays even with no fan running.

I've mounted the Thermistor from an LCD Thermometer on the LED, so I'll be able to see how hot it's getting.

I'll post photos next week.
 
Very interesting project!

I will be trying to make my own heatpipes soon (1/4" tubing filled with water + vapor). Which when flattened, can fit in a Mag-D when there are 26650cell in there too.
 
If you want the tubes to work as well as commercial pipes, you need to treat the inside of the pipes to encourage capillary action to return the liquid -

- grooving on inner wall
- sintered liner
- braid

The Heatsink I used is a "Zerotherm Atom 30H" - it was on special under $30 from iibuy.com.au because no-one uses low powered CPUs anymore (<120watt !!!).

I no longer have to specify that it's $Aus - because for the first time in 25 years, it's about the same $US and $Cdn !!!
 
Very interesting project!

I will be trying to make my own heatpipes soon (1/4" tubing filled with water + vapor). Which when flattened, can fit in a Mag-D when there are 26650cell in there too.

You need a liquid which boils around or below your target temp. Drawing a vacuum on the tubing helps also.
 
The one area I feel is important that has not been addressed yet is: what happens to the heat/energy that has been moved away from the "hot" LED by the heatsink? Answer: it keeps raising the temperature of the body/light until an equilibrium is found, or until you can't hold to it any longer and have to turn it off, or until the LED self-cooks itself and dies from too high a temperature. Even for a large size light (say 3D Mag size), the longer you run the high power LED, the higher the temps will get, since we lack the active cooling of fans that help CPU heatsinks achieve lower temps.

Anyone what has held any small/medium LED light with more than 10-15 watts knows this - the body of the light gets warmer and warmer, until it gets uncomfortable to hold. Those 3x P7's or 3x MC-E, or the SST-90's being driven hard (close to 8-9 amps) are the worst offenders - most builder/owners admit that after 5-10 minutes they can no longer hold on to the light - it is too darn hot, regardless of the heatsink used!.

My point is that although it does help to have a good, efficient heatsink design to remove heat from the LED area, unless you have a way to remove heat from the body of the light at the same rate it is being generated, you are still going to have to deal with a body that gets hotter and hotter with time.

The fact that we can use a supper duper, highly efficient" heat-pipe system to move heat away from the hot LED into the body of the light, only helps in spreading that energy into the mass of the light - it does not help eliminate the energy fast enough.

The time before this high power LED (again 15+ watts) becomes too hot to handle is directly proportional to the mass of the light in question and the amount of light exposed (surface area) to air (lest efficient since we don't have fans) or your hand (most efficient until it becomes too hot to hold). That is why an 18650 "EDC-size" SST-50 driven hard will get hotter much quicker than a 3D Mag driving the same SST-50 equally hard - the larger light with larger mass will absorb the heat/energy and will get hotter slower, but its temperature will still increase until the equilibrium point is reached.

Don't get me wrong, I love this thread, I love the efforts to improve heatsink design, but I still see it as a short term fix to buy you a few more minutes of usage time. In my personal experience during the last 5-6 years, that limit for a comfortable equilibrium that allows me to hold the light for more than 10 minutes continuously without being too uncomfortable is somewhere around 12-15 watts in a 2C size light. I can't see the physics of a 30 watt LED being held by hand in a 2D or 3D size light for more than a few minutes, regardless of heatsink design/material, since the air around the light and the blood in my hand can't remove that amount of heat fast enough.

Will
 
Last edited:
. . .
My point is that although it does help to have a good, efficient heatsink design to remove heat from the LED area, unless you have a way to remove heat from the body of the light at the same rate it is being generated, you are still going to have to deal with a body that gets hotter and hotter with time.

The fact that we can use a supper duper, highly efficient" heat-pipe system to move heat away from the hot LED into the body of the light, only helps in spreading that energy into the mass of the light - it does not help eliminate the energy fast enough. . . .

I agree - that's why I abandoned the traditional handheld torch format for my SST-90 Searchlight / Floodlight. I need to run it for an hour as a Searchlight or a Movie light. Low weight is also important for something you'll be holding for a long time.

The Zerotherm Atom 30 has a 30x30x5 mm copper block for mounting the LED. Two Heatpipes then transfer the 30 watts of heat to lots of thin aluminium fins which transfer the heat to the air without much temperature drop and without needing a massive block of metal to transfer the heat to the fins. The fins take up 100x85x20mm. It weighs 150g.

The copper block is also coupled to the Aluminium housing that helps pass the heat to the air - 120x90x50

The fans draws 1.5 watts, but that's trivial in a 40 watt light.

I haven't measured temperatures yet, but so far I'm really impressed with how cool the copper block stays - even without the fan.
 
What wquiles is saying as absolutely right. An equilibrium has to be reached before the light stops getting hotter. If that's before or after the point that you cannot hold it anymore, is the thing we are trying to figure out. For small EDC lights, it's obvious that a SST90 will not work at full power for an extensive amount of time.

But that's mostly not the purpose of those lights of course.

Spreading the heat to a larger surface area (entire length of a mag 2/3D) will encrease running time on full power. The mass of the light will buffer the heat, but the surface area will aid in cooling. Propably not enough though, so active cooling might be needed.

You need a liquid which boils around or below your target temp. Drawing a vacuum on the tubing helps also.

The things is, that it's pretty hard to do this. But I do have the tools (from my refridgeration type cooling mods) so will look into it. Will post the results when done :).
 
I don't know the percentages, but I'd be willing to make a major bet that conduction to air/water/your hand/etc dwarfs radiant emission of energy from an led based, metal bodied light.


If RADIATING the heat away is so important, why are you mixing that up with CONDUCTING the heat into the air?

:)


That's what I love about these heat transfer threads. There's so much great info mixed with so much wrong info.

Just getting my word terminology wrong as it would seem you are ;)

<cough>Convection</cough>

Look I don't get that deep and meaningful I know the pit falls of having multiple segments and the losses caused.

End of day you need the heat to move out effectively and design is so important when mixing metals you have to be really good at bonding those surfaces to get your conduction and equally enough surface sinking to get rid of that heat through Convection.

That's the point I am making losses can be high when your surfaces are not under high clamping pressures with also a good thermal transfer medium (Thermal paste) it kind of makes mute the use of a copper heat spreader with 2 thermal layers the heat has to navigate through.

I see so many diy peeps accepting a copper slug put inside a tube as being a heatsink and running the risk of burning the LED out or even overheating batteries to the point of venting/explosion... I think that is how the Maglight got its nickname to a world war 2 stick bomb when modded.

In my book ALu for air cooling & copper if water cooling.

Anyhow good luck to the OP the fun is in the making.
 
Just getting my word terminology wrong as it would seem you are ;)

<cough>Convection</cough>

....

I try not to split hairs, but this has been a semi-detailed talk about heat transfer.

My original post "CONDUCTING the heat into the air?"

Yes, the original transfer TO the air is still conduction. The transfer through the air is convection.
 
So what about when used in a dive light? Safe to assume that water will take in some of the heat and then make it possible to run the light "forever"?
 
So what about when used in a dive light? Safe to assume that water will take in some of the heat and then make it possible to run the light "forever"?

Being under water if not a guarantee - you "must" have a good thermal path from the LED to the outside surface of the light (in other words, an LED on an Al/Copper heatsink inside a plastic body is generally speaking "not" a good solution). Assuming a good thermal path, then yes, since the light is surrounded by water (with practically an infinite thermal capacity), you would have a great solution as you can't heat the water fast enough - the water will be taking away heat faster than your high power LED can dish it out :D . The equilibrium point would be based more on the temperature of the water than on any other factor within the light.

Will
 
Last edited:
There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Indeed copper is a better thermal conductor than aluminum which in turn is much better than brass, but that is often largely irrelevant in practice, except maybe right adjacent to the LED, and depends significantly on the heat sink geometry employed (cross sectional area good, long heat path length from LED bad). In cases where the separation between heat source and sink is unfortunately large one may consider a forced fluid convection alternative for thermal transport enhancement (like the radiator in your car), or a rather specialized version known as a heat pipe in which a fluid is contained in a tube and operated right around the liquid/gas phase change boundary (e.g. it boils at the operating temperature).

Another practical consideration is that both copper and brass are easy to soft solder, whereas soldering to aluminum which forms a robust native oxide layer is only possible with a specialized fluxed solder (such as Alusol from Multicore solders, but it is a respiratory health hazard and relatively hard to obtain).

In nearly all heat sink designs the limitations are at the interfaces rather than the choice of bulk material (assuming it is a somewhat good conductor like most metals and the heat sink geometry is rationally designed, i.e. short and fat, not long and thin in the direction of heat flow). At reasonable temperatures (<100C) radiation thermal transport is negligible so we'll rule that one out. Most interfaces within an LED assembly are solid to solid and so conduction limited. Therfore it is the interface material, thickness and cross-section that matters. For this reason most interface and bonding materials (thermal grease, thermal adhesive, silicone pads etc.) are capable of being applied or squeezed into thin layers, and are highly loaded with a high thermal conductivity powder. This may be either metallic such as aluminum, copper or silver, or ceramic such as boron nitride or aluminum nitride, even berylia is used in some technical applications though it is highly toxic if the powder is inhaled. Often the choice of filler is determined by whether electrical conductivity is also desired as in the case of silver loaded epoxies.

The other interface problem to consider is usually where the heatsink terminates in a fluid, in which case convection normally dominates beyond conduction into the immediate boundary layer. For "dry" applications this usually means air is the transport medium, either by forced convection as in projectors, hair dryers etc. with a fan, or by natural convection like the heatsink on the back of your stereo receiver. In either case well designed fins help by increasing the effective area swept by the fluid. Ideally the fins should be thick enough at the base to transport heat to the distal regions which can be thinner, but machined heatsinks usually have constant thickness fins for simplicity. In the natural convection case the fins are preferably vertically oriented to assist with the chimney effect (hot air is less dense and rises). As a scuba diver designing for in water use, the heatsinking to the fluid (water in this case) is much more efficient than to air. The density and thermal capacity of water is much greater, so although the viscosity is high compared to air, a reltively small contact area to the metal heat sink (e.g. anodized aluminum) is all that is necessary. However such designs may need a thermal cut out or at least current limitation in the circuitry in case of extended operation out of water as they will no longer be effectively cooled.
 
Back
Top