Any new battery technologies on the horizon?

vicv

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18650's seem to be improving at a pretty regular rate. What I'd like to see is 350's and 500's also improve. We're stuck with the same cells from ten years ago in all the sized but 18650. 2200 may to now 3400mah. But Imr 18500s are still 1100
 

idleprocess

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18650's seem to be improving at a pretty regular rate. What I'd like to see is 350's and 500's also improve. We're stuck with the same cells from ten years ago in all the sized but 18650. 2200 may to now 3400mah. But Imr 18500s are still 1100
18650 is the standard platform in the battery industry for laptops, power tools, and - for Tesla at least - electric cars. Everyone knows the form-factor, there are likely other standards and investments in that particular size/shape, and there's constant demand ... thus it's available in almost every chemistry and new flavors are always made available in 18650.
 

ven

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I would just like todays tec combined,65mm 18650 cell size with protection closer to 67mm BUT with higher A ratings of 20A or even 30A.

Higher mah for IMR cells,pushing 3400 on a 30A cell.

Obviously i would like to see higher mah in general,3600mah although in right direction is not significant enough for the extra cost and will be hard to get this year due to tesla and demands for Panasonic to fulfil (inc a new factory to supply).But 4000mah would be a great step,how far round the corner would this be..........
 

vicv

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18650 is the standard platform in the battery industry for laptops, power tools, and - for Tesla at least - electric cars. Everyone knows the form-factor, there are likely other standards and investments in that particular size/shape, and there's constant demand ... thus it's available in almost every chemistry and new flavors are always made available in 18650.

Ya. I have a bunch of reclaimed 18650's. They're used for everything. I'm not even sure where the other sized come from. Still it would be nice to see things improve
 

bobrip

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That's a good way of approaching it. You're right, gasoline is pretty good, but I think it's a bit worse than your estimate because you need to add oxygen to the energy density for it to react. (Since batteries are closed systems.)

Why can's batteries use the oxygen in the air? There are concepts out there that do.
 

Etsu

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Why can's batteries use the oxygen in the air? There are concepts out there that do.

Depending on the application, I suppose they could. For a sealed flashlight application, probably not possible.
 

jtr1962

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It's unlikely that any battery will achieve energy density better than liquid gasoline. The volume of an 18650 cell is pi * (18mm/2)² * 65mm = 16540mm³. The energy density of gasoline is 34.6 J/mm³. So an 18650 filled with gasoline has 572,300 J of energy. One joule is one watt-second, and there are 3600 seconds in an hour, so that's 159 Wh. Current Panasonic NCR18650B cells are 3400 mAh at 3.7V, which is 12.6 Wh. So best case is roughly another factor of 13, barring some sort of nuclear power source.
If we're assuming batteries which use a chemical reaction, then maybe the ultimate limit is a factor of 20 over what we have now (there are chemical reactions more energetic than gasoline burning). If we think in terms of storing charge in ultracapacitors, the limits are probably much higher, depending upon the dielectric constant and the amount of surface area we can squeeze in. Research suggests the upper limit of a graphene-based supercapacitor is 550 farads per gram. Going by their example a 2 kg capacitor operating at 100 volts, but storing 550 F/gram instead of the 1F/kg of present day supercaps, the capacity would be an incredible 5.5 billion joules of energy, or about 1527 kW-hrs. This equates to 2750 megajoules per kilogram. This is many multiples of the energy from any chemical reaction. Even if a graphene based supercap only achieves 100 F/gram and 30 volts operating voltage, it will still be able to store as much energy per kilogram as gasoline (i.e. the energy in gasoline is about 44 megajoules per kilogram).

On another note however, gasoline is not a great metric to use here because at best gasoline engines turn about 20% of the energy in gasoline into useful work. A more realistic metric then might use ~10 megajoules per kg as the upper bounds for what we can achieve using gasoline as a fuel. Going by that metric, present day batteries are within a factor of three of gasoline, while supercaps are poised to eventually do much better than that.
 

Lynx_Arc

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As much as I think it would be wonderful for batteries to increase 10 times in power, it would also make them 10 times as dangerous too causing all sorts of safety concerns possibly such that render them inaccessible to most of the general public.
 

jtr1962

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As much as I think it would be wonderful for batteries to increase 10 times in power, it would also make them 10 times as dangerous too causing all sorts of safety concerns possibly such that render them inaccessible to most of the general public.
It all depends upon whether the battery can be abused or not, and also how it fails when it's abused. Present day lithium-ion batteries can fail catastrophically if abused. The reason we haven't had more incidents is because by and large they are built into devices where the device controls charging/discharging. Chances are good that any more powerful batteries will largely be closely controlled by whatever device they're in.

We can also make batteries safer by controlling how fast they liberate energy if they do fail. Lithium batteries are only dangerous because the energy is liberated instantaneously when they fail. I tend to think ultracaps would fail much more gracefully. By definitely, they store charge on plates of opposite polarity. If those plates are separated they can no longer rapidly liberate energy. I tend to think if a super high capacity ultracap were to fail, it might stop liberating energy once the charge storing parts were separated slightly. In other words, you might get a bang just large enough to physically blow apart the supercap but no much larger. After that, any energy left in the form of charge might slowly dissipate to the environment.
 

Lynx_Arc

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It all depends upon whether the battery can be abused or not, and also how it fails when it's abused. Present day lithium-ion batteries can fail catastrophically if abused. The reason we haven't had more incidents is because by and large they are built into devices where the device controls charging/discharging. Chances are good that any more powerful batteries will largely be closely controlled by whatever device they're in.

We can also make batteries safer by controlling how fast they liberate energy if they do fail. Lithium batteries are only dangerous because the energy is liberated instantaneously when they fail. I tend to think ultracaps would fail much more gracefully. By definitely, they store charge on plates of opposite polarity. If those plates are separated they can no longer rapidly liberate energy. I tend to think if a super high capacity ultracap were to fail, it might stop liberating energy once the charge storing parts were separated slightly. In other words, you might get a bang just large enough to physically blow apart the supercap but no much larger. After that, any energy left in the form of charge might slowly dissipate to the environment.
Chances are a higher power battery can be abused and/or protection circuitry required to keep it from harming anyone can be miscontructed or fail. Even a nicad 1.2v battery in a pack in series can cause issues when shorted out. The fact we have had cell phone batteries harm people that would be equated at 1/10 as powerful leads me to conclude that the chance is good super batteries can end up being used as weapons of sorts like small sticks of explosives and be all but banned because of their abilitiy to be modified into a dangerous device by terrorists. You would have to have a battery that its internal design limits the amount of current it can output but allows tremendous capacity to be drawn. Instead of a 4v lithium battery capable of perhaps 10-20 amps output being upgraded to 100-200 amps output the current would still be limited to safe current levels perhaps even without protection circuitry at all. Maybe the battery would be only capable of 5-10 amps instead making it more safe than predecessor.

I think overall that such technology would require sophistication in manufacturing that would drive prices up beyond the range of power increase. A 10 times battery could end up costing 50 times as much which would make it out of reach for the general population unless it would last 10 times as long and be standardized such that 10 years from now you could swap it into some other device. A 10 times capacity AA battery that costs 5 times as much that lasts 10 years and doesn't leak would be sellable. You could even see a rise in AA based devices instead of li-on proprietary ones.
 

jtr1962

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You would have to have a battery that its internal design limits the amount of current it can output but allows tremendous capacity to be drawn. Instead of a 4v lithium battery capable of perhaps 10-20 amps output being upgraded to 100-200 amps output the current would still be limited to safe current levels perhaps even without protection circuitry at all. Maybe the battery would be only capable of 5-10 amps instead making it more safe than predecessor.
Maximum current capability is an entirely separate issue here. Judging by what I see, most new battery tech has higher capacity than its predecessors, not higher current capability. Look at NiCad versus NiMH. NiCad typically has higher current capability but much lower capacity. In any case, it's not an insurmountable design problem to limit current capability. An internal PTC resistor mounting inside the cell will do the trick and will be inaccessible unless you physically destroy the cell.

Although the idea probably won't get much traction in an era when the mere mention of anything nuclear sends the public into a panic, the idea of radioisotope based batteries should be seriously looked at. These are inherently safe in that the energy is released at a low rate over a long period of time. Thermoelectric devices typically are used to exploit the temperature differentials in order to extract energy. With more efficient thermoelectrics nuclear batteries might be the way to go for many devices, including cars. In a car you have sufficient space to enclose the generator in a casing to prevent escape of the contents even in a worst case crash. Because nuclear batteries release their energy relatively slowly, you might have the nuclear battery charging a small conventional battery which is used briefly to accelerate. The nuclear battery could provide sufficient power (~15-25 kW) for steady state cruising the rest of the time. It could also provide grid power when the car is parked at home, perhaps obviating the need to purchase electricity for the grid.

I don't know if nuclear batteries would be feasible for small, portable devices due to the shielding requirements but for larger applications they seem like the way to go. More on radioisotope generators.
 

RetroTechie

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the idea of radioisotope based batteries should be seriously looked at.
Iirc this has been used for pacemakers in the past. So small size is possible & safe enough. I'd take one, but probably not practical for use in flashlights due to a variety of issues. To name a few: cost, waste heat, how to dispose of old cells, what happens when it's accidentally thrown in the trash... :sick2:

There's many promising new battery techs out there. Also nanotech & better understanding of materials at molecular / atomic level, will make a lot of new things possible. Which could make many technologies (including battery tech!) that were tried in the past but -mostly- forgotten, practical in short order. Or improve / solve issues with existing battery tech.

And science keeps progressing as always. This I found recently:

Solid state Li-ion: Wikipedia - CU-Boulder news item - spin off company. Looks to be approaching market entry in a few years? (yeah I know, we've heard that before ;) )
 
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