Any stories of using STROBE as a Self-Defense Weapon?

[Search]

I have been involved in various strobe usage threads over the years and have always attempted to...

Someone linked a thread from 2009 that discussed this. We both had the same opinion. Interesting yours didn't change much over thr past 6 years. I left LE a while back after workinga few years but I still agree.

To add my real world experience to this thread.. a bright light is a bright light to the type of person that could be thwarted by a bright light. Strobe or no strobe jt never made a difference. They either fell over drunk or we fought anyway. A light is a tool, not a weapon. The only time I ever saw a light used as a weapon was a mag light. Blunt force trauma and what not.

 

[xzel87]

+1 to what Robocop said...

I don't think I'll even be able to remember how to get to strobe mode in a threatening, high-stress situation. I'm your regular average office worker type that has no history nor experience of violent confrontation or threatening situation. If a guy is after your wallet, just give it. No point risking your life over money, at least that's what usually happens over here.

If they are out to harm you, for me, I'd just run. If I had a light of some length, I'd use it as a somewhat ineffective blunt force tool. If it was something small, I'd throw it, or I'll just use it as a hard object in my fist.

 

[Search]

+1 to what Robocop said...

I don't think I'll even be able to remember how to get to strobe mode in a threatening, high-stress situation. I'm your regular average office worker type that has no history nor experience of violent confrontation or threatening situation. If a guy is after your wallet, just give it. No point risking your life over money, at least that's what usually happens over here.

If they are out to harm you, for me, I'd just run. If I had a light of some length, I'd use it as a somewhat ineffective blunt force tool. If it was something small, I'd throw it, or I'll just use it as a hard object in my fist.

I've seen seasoned cops forget how to use their radio when shtf. KISS wasn't coined because it's cool. The more training and real life experience people have the more they realize simple saves lives. Also knowing when to fight or flee but that's an entirely different sub forum.

In the absolute few real high stress situations I ever found myself in all I remember is that horrible tunnel vision and focusing on exactly what was happening in front of me. Everything else luckily happened through muscle memory. The less steps your muscle memory takes you the higher your chance of successfully completing them.

We are humans. We are limited beings.

 

[scs]

I've seen seasoned cops forget how to use their radio when shtf. KISS wasn't coined because it's cool. The more training and real life experience people have the more they realize simple saves lives. Also knowing when to fight or flee but that's an entirely different sub forum.

In the absolute few real high stress situations I ever found myself in all I remember is that horrible tunnel vision and focusing on exactly what was happening in front of me. Everything else luckily happened through muscle memory. The less steps your muscle memory takes you the higher your chance of successfully completing them.

We are humans. We are limited beings.

All kidding aside, a flashlight with a sharp striking bezel can be effective as a stabbing weapon or maybe even a slashing weapon. Imagine for a second you're not defending yourself with one, but someone is coming at you with one, intending to stab you and shred you up. Pretty scary. So it's matter of mentality and methodology. Yes, it is very foolish to just light it up, strobe or not, and expect it to somehow stop an assailant, but if you intend to use that just as a temporary diversion to gain the upperhand, even if it's a second or even half of a second, and you follow that up and become the attacker, not defender, it can work, assuming you're trained. A sharp object in the hand of someone with training. Yes, that's better than nothing.

Edit: Sorry, Search. Just noticed I had quoted you by mistake. I was referring to my earlier post, in which I posted the videos.

 

[grndslm]

Chuck Norris charged me, but the strobe was no use. He was able blink at the same frequency of the strobe, effectively turning "off" my light.

Speaking of Chuck Norris, I strangely enough *just* watched a Tivo'd episode of Dog the Bounty Hunter. The episode started off with Dog's wife wanting a new flashlight, so "the guys" go into some tactical shop and start strobing each other in the eyes and end up buying a few $200 flashlights. I'm sure they were garbage, but the timing of the episode was quite humorous to me.

When I created this thread, I definitely should have replaced the word "Weapon" with the word "Tool". By definition, a flashlight is not a self-defense weapon... but it can be a self-defense tool if there is nothing else available.

There are a few compact lights that are already capable of throwing ~350 to 450 meters -- T25C2 HI, TN11s v2, M23. The G25C2 HI will be another compact thrower that would burn the hell out of your retinas. I'm sure by the end of this year there will be a dozen lights using the XP-L HI emitter with high Lux ratings as one of the main objectives. This means much better self-defense tools for those who cannot carry a gun everywhere or what have you.

Of course, these compact throwers probably would be fine without the strobe feature at all. Sweeping the light back and forth across some eyeballs is probably just as effective, however, the strobe just allows you to think about other things, like running, an escape route, what the attacker is doing, what other tools do you have available around you that the attacker is not able to see coming.

And perhaps you guys are buying lights that cost hundreds of dollars but have crappy UIs, but the Nitecore light I have will activate strobe with two taps of the Mode button. Pretty simple. Other Nitecores activate strobe by holding the Mode button for more than 1 second. I was reading about one light (forget which one) that activates strobe after holding for 5 seconds, which is at least 2 or 3 seconds too much, but whatever. The TN11s v2 has it's own dedicated strobe button (and not only that, but the frequency of the strobe changes to become more "disorienting". Eagletac has even added a "disorienting strobe" function into some of its lights, in addition to the regular strobe)! More and more lights are coming out with multiple mode buttons, which will make activating strobe something that *is* second nature. Confusing for you? Maybe. Confusing for the person who buys it and practices with it for an hour the first day it comes in the mail? I doubt it.

Point being, I would be hard pressed to believe there is any major flashlight manufacturer who does not see the future of lights being used as self-defensive tools by a HUGE potential market. They're all honing in on these strobe features for one reason, because they know there is a limit at which your eyes are capable of functioning with a given amount of relative and/or consistent light, and I'm sure they believe they are knocking on that limit's door if they have not already achieved it. The reflection of the sun off white cement kills my eyes every day after being inside work for a few hours, so I'm sure there is some magic number of candela or lux that translates into ocular sensory overload for humas.

Actually, it should be fairly easy to determine what that "magic number" is.

50,000 candela @ 1 meter = 50,000 Lux
50,000 candela @ 2 meters = 12,500 Lux

Since most Lux ratings are probably taken at 1 meter.... it should be fairly easy for people to take their throwiest flashlights, put in some fresh batteries, and strobe themselves at night (not inside Walmart) from a 1 meter distance.

There's no reason to NOT be scientific about this. Who can handle 50,000 Lux strobe @ 1 meter? Who can handle 100,000 Lux strobe @ 1 meter? What is your tint? How does a yellow tint affect you versus a white tint of the same rating?

EDIT: Now that I think about the sun's reflection off white cement affecting my eyes, eye color probably is a fairly big factor in this matter as well. Blue eyed people would likely feel the effects moreso than those with hazel eyes, who would feel the effects moreso than those with brown eyes. Another factor to keep this all scientific. Would be nice if someone with enough throwy lights and a video camera could help us with these scientific tests. Clearly there are people here with great cameras and great flashlights.... so why not?

 

[dc38]

Many high lux lights are not edc friendly. Are you more likely to get mugged walking a dog, or walking home from work?

Strobe just pisses people off unless theyre drunk. Drunks are the only people strobes work on. And people susceptible to siezures.

 

[Robocop]

Search good to hear from you again and I hope all is well for you.....

Nice to see this thread remaining on track and also calm. I enjoy hearing others opinions however have to base my opinions on my personal experiences. I do understand that others may have had good results with strobe and as such would have a much different opinion than myself. Naturally when I do try to explain my thoughts on almost any topic I naturally do so from the perspective of a police officer. Yes unless you have experienced it pure fear and adrenaline will cause your body to do weird things. You can be a super cop on paper or a dang 13 level ninja in training however you never know how one will react that first time it is real.

Your fine motor skills are useless until you really learn to control them under stress and trust me the average every day citizen has no idea how to do so. I was trained for 23 weeks in a wonderful academy and then did 16 weeks training car in a very violent area. In my mind I thought I was invincible and on paper I had the training to back it up. The first time I experienced gunfire from a house I was approaching yes my muscle memory drew my weapon just fine. My muscle memory threw that weapon up on target and muscle memory focused on those sights. My muscle memory however did not scan the area as tunnel vision focused on the window of the house. I never saw the side door open as the suspect just ran away. Lucky for me he chose to run or I would have been killed. I don't remember much of the whole event however do remember regaining some of my senses as the female inside was screaming "he ran that way officer" pointing down the street. That side door was easily visible and 50 feet to my right however it could have been a flaming red elephant and I was just not seeing it....was way too focused on the first threat from where I thought the shot came from.

I remember thinking how did he get out that door and run without me seeing him. Then I also realized that was the stress they had trained us on however again nothing can compare to true life. Long story short I learned to recognize and control a little better the symptoms and also realized I was not nearly as prepared as I thought I was.....I also completely forgot what street I was on when I screamed in my radio for assist units.

In my mind it is hard to realize that most average people do not experience true criminals daily. Most people move about their daily lives and form opinions on things from all types of sources such as magazine ads, internet reading, word of mouth, and silly videos such as the one linked here showing violent criminals freezing in place when strobed. I am sure somewhere there is someone who watched that video and formed an opinion on how effective strobe is. Then this same person may rely on that information someday and find out too late that they had better options.

I see this with each recruit class and every recruit has good intentions however are often misguided. Without fail each one of my recruits will arrive with the latest and greatest gadgets. I have really seen some crazy gadgets with the most popular being fancy laser sites and flashlights with 17 levels. Each recruit when questioned will answer with " I have seen some awesome video reviews on this stuff and it works" Each one also without fail learns quickly what works and they will slowly over time modify their equipment to simple and smooth.

I am a big believer in the less working parts to anything the better it is. Yes strobe has come a long way and some designers actually do a good job of adding strobe as a locked out feature. Again even so I never see any officer use strobe in any other form other than traffic assignment. More parts or bigger more complicated circuits is simply something that may fail when needed. Quick example about gadgets and muscle memory would be a video I watched during an officer street survival course.

Officer involved in a traffic stop and 13 seconds after activating his overhead light and siren he is taking fire. One round penetrates front windshield as the second round hits the open door of his patrol car. Both rounds missed allowing the officer to draw his weapon as he was exiting his car when the first shot happened. The bad guys weapon jammed on the second round and he was reaching under the seat for a 2nd handgun. The officer had 3 seconds (according to the video) to obtain a sight picture and fire however he did not fire.

This happened on a gas station lot that had excellent video outside. The video showed the officer with plenty of time and the weapon pointed at the bad guy however he appeared to be just frozen. Bad guy now produces his 2nd weapon and fires 7 shots with 3 striking the officer. Investigation showed the officers weapon working perfectly with the exception of his laser sight....it had failed. He was so used to the laser being there when it was not there under stress he forgot how to use those big old iron sights that work so very well.

A little off topic from strobe however the principle is the same and given to explain why I feel the way I do towards any type of self defense tool or tactic. Training works and does save lives however training builds better muscle memory and mindset. Training with the right equipment is also fantastic however training with the wrong equipment will set you up for disaster. I believe this is why no department I know actually trains their officers to use strobe. Think about it if it worked it would be trained all over the nation and none I know do so. Case in point I was trained on mace and had to take a big old blast to the face. Yes it worked in training as I stood there blind with snot running down my shirt and just knew when I needed to use mace it would work. Well you guessed it the first time I used it in close quarters with a truly violent crack head sure it made him blind and also made his eyes water and snot was flying everywhere however he almost killed me with his free hands. I was trained on it and had a false sense of security from training with the wrong equipment. In the end it was baton, knuckles and my radio that saved my butt that night. All we had was mace way back then and thus we trained with it however tasers changed everything. They are a much better tool and now we are training with much better equipment.

Now in a real world again most people do not have the advantage of being an officer with training weekly. Most people are average people not exposed to true violence. When faced with a real threat they have many options that may save their life and a flashlight strobe should be very far down that list in my opinion.

My best advice to anyone who wishes to practice with strobe for any type of sudden defensive action would be go ahead and practice. Become comfortable with your light and its operation however please do not neglect the many other options available. Simple hand to hand skills, chemical options such as mace, handheld tasers, impact weapons such as car keys or keychain kubotan, and above all awareness. Watch your surroundings and put that phone down while walking to your car. I have taken many robbery reports where the victims were surprised and never saw the danger approaching due to being distracted while texting on their phone.

Sorry so long winded however any who know me know that I will ramble on all night trying to sound all important and moderator like. Just a few more thoughts to add to this thread and hope it may help others to think a little. Enjoyed reading this thread actually and so nice to see it moving along drama free.

 

[Robocop]

As a side note just to add some perspective....that crackhead was about 150 lbs and really did not want to go to jail. I had mace and size to my advantage and that little 150 lb dude went about 60 seconds taking all I had. I really would hate to see what a strobe would do to a violent determined criminal like that if I was just the average citizen attacked by surprise. Most people know me here however for those who don't I am adding my photo. Yeah Robocop so I thought.....if a 150 lb cracked out dude can go 60 seconds with me then trust me strobe would not have worked.

 

[scs]

As a side note just to add some perspective....that crackhead was about 150 lbs and really did not want to go to jail. I had mace and size to my advantage and that little 150 lb dude went about 60 seconds taking all I had. I really would hate to see what a strobe would do to a violent determined criminal like that if I was just the average citizen attacked by surprise. Most people know me here however for those who don't I am adding my photo. Yeah Robocop so I thought.....if a 150 lb cracked out dude can go 60 seconds with me then trust me strobe would not have worked.

Thanks for sharing your professional experience, Robocop. BTW you live up to your screenname.
The perp was able to tangle with you because your mentality and therefore your approach and methodology were at a disadvantage: as a LEO, you were required by law to play by the rules, which limited what you were legally allowed to do to the guy in that scenario. Had you been fighting for your life, or had you snapped and really wanted to hurt the guy bad, I'm sure you would have made quick work of him.

 

[scs]

And I don't mean you could have shot him, I mean you could have beaten him to a bloody pulp.

 

[xzel87]

As a side note just to add some perspective....that crackhead was about 150 lbs and really did not want to go to jail. I had mace and size to my advantage and that little 150 lb dude went about 60 seconds taking all I had. I really would hate to see what a strobe would do to a violent determined criminal like that if I was just the average citizen attacked by surprise. Most people know me here however for those who don't I am adding my photo. Yeah Robocop so I thought.....if a 150 lb cracked out dude can go 60 seconds with me then trust me strobe would not have worked.

If that guy took 60 seconds of all you had...if it was me I'd have been killed 3 times over. Which is why for average people, I would, as per your advice, advocate that they be alert of their surroundings. We still have idiots here crossing the road without checking out for cars AND while texting. The favourite mugging/robbing MO here seems to be perps on bikes riding by and snatching whatever bag on you, either let go or get dragged along. Imagine how this can be so easily avoided if you are alert.

Learning and practicing basic self-defense moves to buy time or get away can't hurt either.

 

[slumber]

Thanks for that insight Robocop. It really puts things in perspective for those of us who only have theories and videos from the Internet.

 

[fyrstormer]

If you're in a dark alley being attacked by someone, the backscatter from the strobe will disorient you just as much as it'll disorient your attacker, if not more, because your central nervous system reacts to fear by amplifying its sensitivity as much as possible. If you want to be blind while running for your life, go ahead and use the strobe -- otherwise, just use the normal full-brightness mode for just long enough to see where your attacker is, and then run as fast as you can in the opposite direction -- with the light off, so you're not broadcasting your location to your attacker.

However, an even better solution is to not go into dark alleys.

 

[Stream]

To those who say strobe won't stop an attacker, there are a couple of points that I think are important to keep in mind:

1) It depends on the determination and mindset of the attacker, in some cases a bright light may disorient him enough to deter him.

2) I can't imagine anyone here thinks a bright light, or strobe mode, will make an attacker drop dead. It all boils down to using whatever you have handy. Heck, even a rolled up magazine could buy you a few seconds.

Lastly, the adrenaline that Robocop talked about will determine more than any other factor. It doesn't matter how well prepared you are if you have never experienced the real life adrenaline of an attack. The light could drop from your hand before you even manage to activate it, you could freeze, not find the button etc. They often say that even a black belt karate master with no real life fight experience will turn to a brown belt after the first blow, a purple belt after the second and so on. This is why I think the biggest issue with using strobe would simply be finding it.

I remember a Dutch police officer on here said police in The Netherlands had had great success using strobe, but the strobe on their lights was programmed to be instantly activated by the tailcap. It would have been no good to expect anyone to cycle through modes or find a side switch in a high stress situation.

 

[dc38]

Lets say this: strobe and mace are equated as self defense options. Both will require proper training to deploy effectively. However, the latter (the one that actually induces physical pain) will usually be more effective. As previously mentioned by other members and myself, the shadows and lights scatter can be more disorienting for the user than the attacker, much like a stream of mace fired upwind from too far away.

 

[Stream]

Lets say this: strobe and mace are equated as self defense options. Both will require proper training to deploy effectively. However, the latter (the one that actually induces physical pain) will usually be more effective.

Agreed.

As previously mentioned by other members and myself, the shadows and lights scatter can be more disorienting for the user than the attacker...

I highly doubt that. Yes, in a pitch black environment it could be disorienting for the user, as well. But more disorienting than if it was pointed straight at you? Try going somewhere very dark, and turn on the strobe. Turn it off, and then turn it back on facing you. Try telling me you can see more from the business end with night adjusted vision than the other way around.

 

[grndslm]

If you're in a dark alley being attacked by someone, the backscatter from the strobe will disorient you just as much as it'll disorient your attacker, if not more, because your central nervous system reacts to fear by amplifying its sensitivity as much as possible. If you want to be blind while running for your life, go ahead and use the strobe -- otherwise, just use the normal full-brightness mode for just long enough to see where your attacker is, and then run as fast as you can in the opposite direction -- with the light off, so you're not broadcasting your location to your attacker.

Well.... since 50,000 Candela is a good starting point for what I think might be a successful strober (haven't experienced it for myself.... but until someone says otherwise, sounds like a good starting point).. that means such a flashlight puts out 50,000 Lux at 1 Meter. That also means the same flashlight would only put out 12,500 Lux at 2 Meters, only 5,555 Lux at 3 Meters, and only 3,125 Lux at 4 Meters. Realistically, whatever Candela rating it is that is determined to "fry all retinas" is only going to do so at short distances. The closer the better. Even if that alley were painted white, "alley bounce" would only be a problem if you had the attacker pinned up against the wall. Certainly something to keep in mind if you were a Peace Officer in a white alley, yes.

And even still.... the hotspot should be on the attacker's face... if you angle it away from his face, the hotspot would bounce in another direction. So really, not even a problem for them. Reminds me of the proper way to shoot the bad guy in a crowded bank. Drop to the ground and strobe!! I keed. I keed.

However, an even better solution is to not go into dark alleys.

Oh man... I tell people this all the time! Don't leave your boxes, people!! There's bad things outside of it...

 

[ForrestChump]

First and foremost, if you see a guy like Robocop coming at you RUN and prey he has been skipping his cardio for the past month.


Depending on a million factors. If a single person were to approach me, unprovoked, with the intent to do harm depending on the level of threat ( EX more than one ) simply hitting someone with a throwy light @ 100 lumens while backing away and being accretive "XXXX OFF!" would be my approach. ( If there was time. ) I see no need for a dedicated strobe mode. We have all hit ourselves in the face with 100 lumens.... now pretend your some idiot on the street at night and you get 100 lumens to the eyeball out of nowhere. That should give you a heck of a leg up...

Granted this is one specific scenario and depending again, on a million factors, the light might not be my first approach. Especially if there is more than one person and the level of danger.

Im dismissing all the videos linked. I just have this knee jerk reaction to all the "self defense" mojo.... kind of like "cross fit"....is it better than nothing? Probably, but is it truly optimal? No. Unfortunately experience is the best teacher. That doesn't mean you can pick up a few good rules to increase you chances.

2 things after growing up in a less than savory place. Things pop off in a split second, you can go from a grin to your face in the pavement in 1/2 a second, but no matter were you live there are 2 things in my experience that have proved invaluable.

Be thoroughly aware of your surroundings at all times. If approached make as much space as possible between you and the threat, this gives you extra time to implement and think about what your going to do. Run if it calls for it, who the hell cares. If thats not an option, WIN. No doubt in your mind, body or soul. WIN. This isn't an ego thing.... you have no idea what the other persons intentions are after your unconscious, I prefer chewing my meals instead of sucking them through a straw. If it's a group quickly take on the loudest one first. Never let anyone behind you, ever. I made that mistake and it cost me a sucker KO to the back of the head, directly to the floor were many unfriendly shoes and boots were waiting for my face. Trying to grab 10 legs being semi conscious from the floor is quiet a challenge..... had I had the experience and followed my first 2 rules, this would likely have likely been 100% avoided.

Last but not least make sure you are not the provoker, make a true effort to deescalate the situation first. Getting punched in the back of the head and stomped in the face teaches you more in 30 seconds than any 30 minute video.

Be safe.

 

[Robocop]

I do remember the older thread where the dutch officer had been testing out strobe with his department and it was interesting. From what I remember he found that it was not so much the actual brightness but the rate of strobe that was most important for results.

I also remember him saying that his usage of strobe was usually used for disorderly drunks with good results. It was a long thread and pretty well discussed. In the end what I gathered from that thread was in his area of the world armed criminals were very rare however in the good old U.S.A. there are hundreds of armed assaults daily.

I believe the op was intending for input on defense from a random attack on a citizen and not geared towards police work so perhaps my opinion is a little biased. If nothing else maybe our discussions of this topic will give some ideas to makers so lights will continue to evolve and improve which means all us flashlight geeks can have more toys.

The only flashlight I can remember actually made for defensive use was the old Tiger-Light. Actually a pretty neat design and very rugged light. It was a little large for actual EDC and designed for police duty belts however it actually worked very well for a last minute defensive option. It was designed to carry a big can of mace in the tailcap and if carried correctly it could be rotated and sprayed without the bad guy ever seeing it coming. One second your holding your light on them then while never letting go of the light they are blasted with mace if they rush you.

It was thinking outside the box that brought that light to market so maybe others will continue that thinking. Maybe a taser light that runs from a single AAA with keychain attachment ......HA funny but would be so very neat to have.

 

[Stream]

I also remember him saying that his usage of strobe was usually used for disorderly drunks with good results.

Yeah, I think I remember that too. I can imagine strobe would be useful for dealing with disorderly drunks, but it would probably be a horrible idea for a felony stop type of situation :duck:.

In the end what I gathered from that thread was in his area of the world armed criminals were very rare however in the good old U.S.A. there are hundreds of armed assaults daily.

Having lived nearly a decade in the US, I know that there is a noticeable difference in policing style. Cops in America are typically much more nervous and cautious, whereas in Europe they are generally more relaxed, and it doesn't seem like they are expecting to get shot at with every traffic stop. This is probably because legal and illegal handgun ownership is so widespread in the US.

However, Europe is a rapidly changing place, and high crime rates along with gun violence are becoming the norm. Here in Sweden, there are numerous shootings every day in the largest cities, and criminals can easily obtain illegal handguns. For the most part the shootings are gang related, and confined to certain neighborhoods. Although, Malmö (the third largest city) is starting to resemble an all out war zone, with explosions and a high number of shootings in the past few months. Things keep getting worse across most of Western Europe, and I can't imagine The Netherlands being an exception.

The only flashlight I can remember actually made for defensive use was the old Tiger-Light.

I remember Tiger-Light, there was a lot of talk about it here many years ago. It seemed pretty cool, but unfortunately it wouldn't be legal to buy it in my part of the world.

I believe the op was intending for input on defense from a random attack on a citizen and not geared towards police work so perhaps my opinion is a little biased.

I think strobe could buy the average citizen a second or two, but it's knowing what to do next that will determine the outcome. The Nitecore flashlight self-defense video posted on the previous page is an interesting display, and how I imagine the use of strobe could be effective in a self-defense scenario. Although I can't imagine cops being allowed to use a flashlight to strike anyone in such a fashion.