ARC to stop using dealers ! !

[this_is_nascar]

I've been keeping quiet, but enough is enough. Get over it folks. Let it go. Peter and ARC are not stupid. He is not going to do something that will knowningly put ARC out of business. You have 2-choices.... live with it and purchase your ARC products from ARC direct (regardless of price) or get on with your life and find another favorite light and/or company. It's really that simple. Most of my purchases have been direct. You want to know why?

-Better chance of getting the latest versions and features.
-It better supports ARC than buying from a dealer.
-It better gives me the opportunity to call Peter on the phone and complain about something I don't like, without worrying the fault will be placed on the transporter or dealer.
-My order usually gets to me faster than from a dealer.

For some reason, consumers always forget they have the last word. Your last word is shown by whether you continue to do business or not and whether or not you purchase the product. Exercise your "last word" abilities and if your "last word" is in the majority, it will quickly be learned by ARC and changes will be made.

 

[Double_A]

I think the reaction has been because everyone assumes your gonna turn greedy and prices would rise. They fear the dreaded MSRP which is often double what street price is.

I just figured that when you drop middle man you would lower both the ARC Store price and the B&M price.

People get used to "having sales" or "I got a great deal off the MSRP" Some people live for these sales and it feeds their ego getting a bargain. I had a co-worker that would buy a bucket of turds at 90% off just to crow about the deal he got and all the haggling he did to get it!

Just give me a fair price. You make a living, I get a fair price, sounds good to me.

GregR

 

[this_is_nascar]

Greg, if the price goes up, it goes up. The consumer is then forced to make a decision as to whether to purchase the product or not. ARC has no obligation to have a sale, sell to dealers, lower prices, etc. If prices go up, you'll need to decide if the price is worth the product to you, then act accordingly. Like it or not, not all products made are affordable to everyone.

Note: I'm not picking on you or selecting you for any special reason other than you're the 1st to respond after I did <G>.

 

[BC0311]

Hey nascar, "....Let it go..." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


BC

 

[Phaserburn]

Nascar, I agree with you. It is what it is, and Peter is running a business; period, The End.

Double A: Bucket of Turds?

 

[Denix]

[ QUOTE ]
Gransee said:

Btw, is anyone reading this thread thinking that I have somehow gone off the deep end and abandoned our customers?

I just got a letter from a dealer claiming that he has, "received well over 100 e-mails from people who swear never to bye from ARC again".

Should I take this with a grain a salt or are you guys really upset with me? This is an open forum, please tell me what you really think about this change. I so much prefer that to any whispering. I am not that scary guys, you can reason with me.

Peter

[/ QUOTE ]

Peter, if it wasn't for the shipping, I wouldn't have any issues. In fact, the only reason I didn't buy direct was because of Fedex. Fedex might very well be the best option for domestic shipping (I really wouldn't know, I'm trusting you on this), it's just that Fedex and UPS are really lousy on international shipping. Bear in mind that we already get a 25% hit here in Canada because of the currency exchange rate (although that's getting better every day now!). Fedex and UPS use customs brokers to get the merchandise through. For an LS, that could easily add $30-$50 right there, in addition to the already higher shipping cost (compared to USPS). So if you add all of that together, we easily end up paying double what your US customers pay.

In fact, you could make this real easy. If we could negociate shipping methods, it would really help us. Just keep everything as is, but just add a little note on your site to call for alternate international shipping arrangements (or advertise here that we can call you, if you want to keep it low key). If we're willing to take the risk, then we could arrange for a different method. Just be sure to put in the invoice that there is no insurance for shipping, or if there is, it's up to the customer to deal with the shipper.

I really like the importer solution though. Now all we have to do is find a good importer (your current one is acutally geared towards US customers - all prices are quoted in US dollars on his website!). Ah, if I had a bit more time on my hands, I might give a run at it myself!

All in all, I do want to buy an LS4... I just hope that I can justify the cost. Most of my friends have ended up buying an Arc AAA after seeing mine, and I'm sure they'll want to do the same when they see me with an LS4. You make darned great lights!

Guy

 

[Bernhard]

I'm a very price sensitive user, and I always keep looking for the best and reasonable deal everywhere. I also feel shipping is the only reason I don't deal with ARC direct.
For example, right now I want to buy your ARC RGB. But I don't want to spend $45 (total price including Int'l shipping) for it. It is way too much, you can get almost one more ARC AAA for that price /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
To me, it is better to put more discount on product rather than subsidize shipping cost...
Thanks Peter, for trying to listen to our concern /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Double_A]

Nascar-

I don't disagree with you, and I can't figure out what your disagreeing with me about?

Your right not everyone can afford everything they want. I can't afford a BMW, Mercedes, Lexus etc. I have a 96 GMC Sonoma with 131,000 miles on it. I would love to get that new GMC SUV with the sliding roof, fat chance however.

Some people already can't afford an ARC-LSH-P. But what can Peter do? If his costs are such that he makes them for $100 and the person can't afford $100 what do CPF members expect Peter to do? Run a charity?

Some people even ***** about the price of an ARC-AAA.

What I was trying to say in case I did not make my point clear is this, Peter will have to do what is necessary to stay in business and consumers will ultimately determine that, by buying the product or not.

GregR

Phaserburn- Yea this guy was full of s--t, I would have expected him to use the bucket of turds in case he got a quart low......

 

[PhilAlex]

I bought an ARC AAA from an online dealer.

Thru total, utter stupidity, my keyring wore thru the lug.

Peter included a new "Barrel" with my purchase of the ARC AA.

Now. I paid, if I recall, $25 for my original ARC AAA

The dealer paid Peter, say, $14.

How much of that was profit? How much did that extra barrel cost him?

Now. If I had bought it off him for $25, it would have been easier for him to "swallow" the deal.

You know, another, similar situation is in effect right now. Valentine Research Corporation, makers of the V1 radar detector sell only thru themselves. And... get this... they only ship to the US and Canadian provinces where Radar Detectors can be sold. No where else.

Very successful company (But Mike Valentine is no marketing fool. The man is brilliant).

Oh. And eBay prices of USED v1's on eBay continue to astonish me. Like, 97% of full retail.

Their Customer Service is legendary, too.

Besides, what's the big deal? It may be a few more dollars, but if it keeps ARC alive, and let's peter make a few sheckels, we all win in the end.

I know the internet tends to be a "I wanna do what I wanna do" type of place. The world would be a darker place without ARC. That's a fact.

 

[javafool]

[ QUOTE ]
Gransee said:

Btw, is anyone reading this thread thinking that I have somehow gone off the deep end and abandoned our customers?

I just got a letter from a dealer claiming that he has, "received well over 100 e-mails from people who swear never to bye from ARC again".

Should I take this with a grain a salt or are you guys really upset with me? This is an open forum, please tell me what you really think about this change. I so much prefer that to any whispering. I am not that scary guys, you can reason with me.

Peter

[/ QUOTE ]

I am concerned that a lot of ARC sales will be lost because about the only visability to your products may be this forum. I have never seen your products in B&M stores but found ARC, and this forum, from an internet retailer.
I was so upset with your decision that I only bought two RGB's. Of course those are the two I would have purchased no matter what. A lot of us here will continue to support ARC because the products are unique, you provide outstanding quality, and customer support is second to none. You should know much better that us if the loss of sales and advertising from your internet retailers will hurt your ability to sell product and improve your business.

 

[this_is_nascar]

Agreed Greg. Maybe I just interpretted your posting incorrectly. Sounds like we're on the same page.

 

[BobG]

It is a fundamental premise of quality management that the best response to "competition" is to act as if it doesn't exist. A manufacturer should focus all their effort on understanding customer desires and needs and meeting and exceeding those needs at a fair price. By doing this the competition will be eliminated by the marketplace. No one will buy their products because yours are better and cheaper. It is a question of where to focus finite resources for maximum impact. To survive long term you must become your own competition. Your next generation of product must "obsolete" your earlier offerings (not necessarily eliminate them as products, but add to them).

Once again, Arc is a master at understanding this proposition. We wanted a AA, we got it. We wanted a RGB AAA, we got it (and it is a great dog collar light). If the customer base is there and Arc (without undue strain) can deliver, it does. The LS4 will be revolutionary in many respects. Seeing the "behavior" of this company thus far my guess is that far from seeing Arc push up prices you will see even greater value going straight to the customer. Maybe not lower prices, but better value... lights that do more and more for the same price.

Again, good fortune to Arc, and I for one will continue to buy their products now and into the future.

 

[BuddTX]

Even thought we think of the internet as old, it, relatively speaking, is still new.

There are products, similar to the ARC, that are very unique, but have been around for a while, and are "STUCK" with the old way of selling their product, even though, it would be better, if they sold it directly to the customer, via the internet.

Innova Ultra Premium Dog Food is one example. For many years, before the internet was around, they had built a large "MLM" if you will, of re-sellers. The internet comes around, and actually, direct sales would be a better way to sell this dog food, but they have choosen to protect their dealers. The dog food I use, suffers a similar problem. I have to drive almost an hour (each way!) to purchase my Wellness BAKED dry dog food, by OldMotherHubbard It is significantly more expensive if I buy it over the internet HERE or Here. The only problem with this, is that these traditional dealers are the reason that the dog food is so popular. now you have a moral decision as to your future relationship to your existing network.

Correct me if I am wrong Peter, but I think you are trying to be a inovative in your selling of your lights, as you are in making your lights.

You don't want to get caught up in the "I could sell more if my products sold for less, but then my dealers would loose out, and they have always been good to me, so I will keep things status quo. . ."

I for one, am looking forward to this new method of selling your product. Your new, as of yet unlreleased light, the LS4 and LS5, are truely going to be "BLEEDING EDGE" lights, and I mean that in a good way, and ARE going to be expensive.

While no price has been set yet, I fully hope that these lights will be less expensive to the end consumer, than if they were being priced with your online re-sellers and B&M stores still in the loop.

 

[Double_A]

BuddTX-

I've heard here, on this forum, a tenative price for the LS4 of $150 standard and $180 premium.

GregR

 

[keithhr]

flashlights are all about beam quality and light, quality of construction, perceived value etc. When ARC was selling the LSH-P online for $160, I wouldn't dream of buying one at that price. Elektrolumens sold the Blaster II, another one watt light with great throw in a custom made body for less than half the price($59). Sure it wasn't regulated, but then a lot of people want direct drive for more brightness. I've only seen arc in one store, TAD. Frankly, as nice as ARC flashlights are, I've only had one arc that had a white beam, and sad to say I sold it, regretting it ever since. The beam quality (led), from light to light{from all manufacturers), sucks in my opinion, they call it luxeon lottery, I call it poor quality control. I don't want to buy lights that vary so much from light to light as to be totally inconsistent. I can't think of any product that is as variable in quality as an led flashlight. I think that flashlight manufacturers should have a way of testing every led that to do their own quality control and also have the ability to return non satisfactory leds back to the manufacturers saying nice try. I find it really comical that lumileds makes a lot of leds that don't meet binning requirements and now we have premium one watt leds being called 3 watt leds. Am I missing something, or is a one watt led still a one watt led and just because it has a bit better heat dispersion properties but not significantly brighter, it is now being called a 3 watt led? Am I missing something?

 

[this_is_nascar]

[ QUOTE ]
keithhr said:
flashlights are all about beam quality and light, quality of construction, perceived value etc. When ARC was selling the LSH-P online for $160, I wouldn't dream of buying one at that price. Elektrolumens sold the Blaster II, another one watt light with great throw in a custom made body for less than half the price($59). Sure it wasn't regulated, but then a lot of people want direct drive for more brightness. I've only seen arc in one store, TAD. Frankly, as nice as ARC flashlights are, I've only had one arc that had a white beam, and sad to say I sold it, regretting it ever since. The beam quality (led), from light to light{from all manufacturers), sucks in my opinion, they call it luxeon lottery, I call it poor quality control. I don't want to buy lights that vary so much from light to light as to be totally inconsistent. I can't think of any product that is as variable in quality as an led flashlight. I think that flashlight manufacturers should have a way of testing every led that to do their own quality control and also have the ability to return non satisfactory leds back to the manufacturers saying nice try. I find it really comical that lumileds makes a lot of leds that don't meet binning requirements and now we have premium one watt leds being called 3 watt leds. Am I missing something, or is a one watt led still a one watt led and just because it has a bit better heat dispersion properties but not significantly brighter, it is now being called a 3 watt led? Am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a couple comments. I purchased several ARC LSH-P lights at the $160 price. I thought I was getting a value product for the amount I paid. It's not a fair comparision to put the ARC and the Blaster into the same category. The Blaster is a tank compared to the LSH. As you said, it's not regulated either. Your comparision is unfair and unjust to both lights. You're damn right the Blaster cost less. Let's see... could it have anything to do with size, lack of regulation, using whatever LED's come down the pike............ I could go on.

 

[rickdm]

Peter, I am fond of you and your company, but I am also fond of some of the dealers that I have bought from in the past. Dealers who have represented your products well. On at least three occasions I have been ordering another product and added an ARC product to my order, that will not happen in the future. These kind of impulse purchases make up quite a bit of my buying for these kind of products, and I suspect I am not alone.

Good luck with your strategy,
Rick

 

[Double_A]

Keithhr-

You have a point, but yes, you are being unfair in my opinion.

Luxeon LED's for flashlights are in their earliest infancy. There is no other manufacturing source for them, that's how new they are. If we are still having this much varibility in five years then I will say right on to your complaints. Think of LEDs for flashlights as Model "T" Fords.

Secondly, all semiconductor components have a normal amount of varibility in their preformance. Often transitors are hand picked in pairs for matching charactoristics for circuits because of this varibility. The problem with LED's is any variation in their tint or output is readily and obviously visible, because their job is to produce light. No other electronic components are so plainly comparible with each other, with no test equipment of any kind other than an untrained eye!

I suggest you are not a good customer for a LED flashlight until the technology matures. You will no doubt continue to be disappointed.

GregR

GregR

 

[keithhr]

Both my Blaster lights are extremely well made with white led's indicating great care was taken with led selection. These are custom lights in the same way arc lights are custom lights. I don't beleive I'm being unfair in my comparisons because led's are being sold as finished, complete entities. I don't go to the store and buy a six pack of coke to find out that I can't drink half of them because the cans were not sealed properly, or buy a set of four tires that are made with a new rubber compound and find out that only half of them will hold any air. Just because arc lights are small doesn't make them special for that reason alone. When I got my Surefire L4, I sent it back to them because they advertised them as coming with white led's and mine was very green. I still believe the arc LS to be a quality light and Peter certainly discounts the lights that he makes that don't measure up, I own one of his LSL-P seconds.

 

[Catdaddy]

Peter,
Please consider how it looks when more than one VERY ESTEEMED dealer says that you stuck them with product and undercut them for personal profit.

You want to know how we feel? I feel like you treated Dan and Kevin wrongly and can't figure out a good business model. It is probably best to go it alone if dealers can't count on you to keep your word. I know that sounds strong. Before attacking me, just go back and read your own statements (try searching the Premium/Standard policy which changed over and over again without notice. Your minimum pricing policy, if it can be called a policy, selling through dealers, discounting your prices below their costs, even the serial numbers on the flashlights, it goes on and on)

You have a right to sell anyway you choose. But I do not think you have a "right" to stick it to dealers because your cash flow is low. I have MANY of your flashlights and love them. But I really think you need a business manager to slow down these whims.

Good luck in the future.


FLAMERS NOTICE: Please research the merits of my comments about Arc's "policies" before attacking. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif