Are Lithium chemistry batteries for me?

[jusval]

I have read a lot about the different Lithium chemistry batteries in threads here. I have never used anything but NiMH as far as rechargeables. I never thought about Li before, but after seeing how they could expand my ability to configure different flashlight mods, it makes me really think about using them.

However....... I still get the feeling that to really do them justice, one has to do a lot more "maintenance" than NiMH. I mean, checking them with a meter, balance charging, etc. But when I look around at the world out there, I just can't believe that the majority of people are doing any of that...... I just can't see joe the plumber worrying about proper maintenance of his batteries.

So what? Well I know that I'm not going to check batteries and worry about all that stuff. I don't want to put them in a fireproof container to charge them or keep them in the garage. I don't do that with NiMH batteries. I use them, throw them in the charger and use them again. I have never had one go bad. Never had one short out or fail to charge. I have gotten rid of a few that don't seem to hold a charge for long any more, but never one I would say was "bad" or shorted out.

What I'm getting at (finally), is do I really have to worry about Li batteries to the point that I need to do all the checks and balances? I really just want to use them and charge them and that's it.

I just have to think that the majority of the world at large, does it the same way too. Just use them and charge them and use them......

So given that scenario, should I just stick to NiMH?

I'd really like to hear your opinions and how you really use your Li batteries on a daily basis. I mean do every one of you guys faithfully do all this checking of every Li-ion (protected or unprotected), battery you use?

Thanks

 

[moldyoldy]

how to best use Lithium-something cells? use single-cell flashlights. Multi-cell lithium-something flashlights will cause problems if one cell is discharged to the point of voltage reversal. rapid disassembly is often the result. Ni-MH cells do not have that problem although the cell life is shortened. That is why most rechargeable lithium-something cells have a low-voltage cutoff.

Other than that, RCR cell chargers may charge cells in parallel. The best chargers will still employ individual channel charge control. Lithium-xxx Chargers that charge individual cells in series are not to be found. The Lithium-Ion battery-packs found in laptops have fairly tight charge or discharge controls. That as compared to some Ni-MH chargers that will charge two cells in series.

Given single cell Lithium-something flashlights and, if rechargeable cells are used, individual channel chargers, just enjoy the lumens!

 

[Dr Jekell]

Which type of batteries do you mean?

You ask about Lithium Chemistry batteries which means:

CR123A Lithium Primaries
LR91 AA Lithium Primaries
Etc

Or Do you mean Lithium-ion Rechargeable's:

Lithium-Ion
Lithium-PO4
RCR123A Lithium-Ion
Etc

 

[jusval]

Which type of batteries do you mean?

You ask about Lithium Chemistry batteries which means:

CR123A Lithium Primaries
LR91 AA Lithium Primaries
Etc

Or Do you mean Lithium-ion Rechargeable's:

Lithium-Ion
Lithium-PO4
RCR123A Lithium-Ion
Etc

Lithium-Ion
Lithium-PO4

 

[LuxLuthor]

Check this thread I posted here, and is in the pinned Topics of Interest at top of this battery section.

LiPO4 is one type of Li-Ion.

I would have no problem telling you to use the safe chemistry Li-Ion cells, but they are limited in size availability. Most "Lithium" batteries being used by the public are primary cells, or are some type of Li-Ion built into packs with protection and/or balance features incorporated.

Probably the RC guys and us flashaholics are among the few using individual Li-Ion cells to any degree. AW's protected Lithium Cobalt Ion cells give a nice safety net.

 

[M@elstrom]

I use the Lithium-Ion protected cells in my lights (single cell application), I like the idea they have a circuit for over/under voltage protection and thus would NEVER risk using anything else with this chemistry.

As far as maintenance goes... I recharge when I notice a dimming of the light output and/or weekly to merely top up the cell (placed on a ceramic tile away from combustible materials), I also periodically check them with a volt meter as well and remaining observant of alterations in cell behaviour ie. not holding charge/overheating during use :thumbsup:

LiFePO4 chemistry cells might be a better place for you to start, safer chemistry negates the need for circuit protection however you still need to ensure you don't overly discharge the cell whilst using it as this will lead to permanent battery damage

 

[jusval]

Check this thread I posted here, and is in the pinned Topics of Interest at top of this battery section.

LiPO4 is one type of Li-Ion.

I would have no problem telling you to use the safe chemistry Li-Ion cells, but they are limited in size availability. Most "Lithium" batteries being used by the public are primary cells, or are some type of Li-Ion built into packs with protection and/or balance features incorporated.

Probably the RC guys and us flashaholics are among the few using individual Li-Ion cells to any degree. AW's protected Lithium Cobalt Ion cells give a nice safety net.

Thanks LuxLuthor. I have read your great thread before and many other threads as well. I guess it's difficult to understand that it's so easy using NiMH and so difficult using other battery types, especially when it seems that Lithium in some form or another seems to be the dominant battery type. If we count all the Laptops, Phones and other electronics using Li- technology every day.

I guess all those millions & millons of people are just lucky or smarter than me, but I bet 90% of them let their batteries run dead all the time or keep them on the charger all the time or basically abuse their stuff all the time.

I imagine some day the "safe Lithium" technology will progress to where the batteries are powerful enough to compete with their unsafe predecessors or compete with NiMH. When that happens, I might try some of them.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Thanks LuxLuthor. I have read your great thread before and many other threads as well. I guess it's difficult to understand that it's so easy using NiMH and so difficult using other battery types, especially when it seems that Lithium in some form or another seems to be the dominant battery type. If we count all the Laptops, Phones and other electronics using Li- technology every day.

I guess all those millions & millons of people are just lucky or smarter than me, but I bet 90% of them let their batteries run dead all the time or keep them on the charger all the time or basically abuse their stuff all the time.

I imagine some day the "safe Lithium" technology will progress to where the batteries are powerful enough to compete with their unsafe predecessors or compete with NiMH. When that happens, I might try some of them.

Jusval, the many Li-Ion cells in use that you refer to have built in protection and/or balance safety circuits. With our flashlight setups, we must take additional protections and learn about their proper use, since we are using free, individual Li-Ion cells for our custom purposes. Some of us have cannibalized power tool packs, and using the cells in ways they were not intended.

Have you noticed that you cannot go out and buy individual Lithium Ion cylindrical cells (easily)? That is because the manufacturers know they should be used carefully, with protection & other regulation systems.

The first step is to learn the different categories of Lithium batteries. Then learn about the various safety issues, proper/optimal care and storage. Once you educate yourself, they can become useful flashlight power sources.

Unfortunately, too many people do not take the time to understand the many types of Lithium batteries, nor realize that certain ones can be more dangerous than others. I commend you for starting to learn about them. I knew nothing about batteries before joining CPF.

 

[jusval]

Jusval, the many Li-Ion cells in use that you refer to have built in protection and/or balance safety circuits. With our flashlight setups, we must take additional protections and learn about their proper use, since we are using free, individual Li-Ion cells for our custom purposes. Some of us have cannibalized power tool packs, and using the cells in ways they were not intended.

Have you noticed that you cannot go out and buy individual Lithium Ion cylindrical cells (easily)? That is because the manufacturers know they should be used carefully, with protection & other regulation systems.

The first step is to learn the different categories of Lithium batteries. Then learn about the various safety issues, proper/optimal care and storage. Once you educate yourself, they can become useful flashlight power sources.

Unfortunately, too many people do not take the time to understand the many types of Lithium batteries, nor realize that certain ones can be more dangerous than others. I commend you for starting to learn about them. I knew nothing about batteries before joining CPF.

That brings up a question. Why is it that there aren't any of the types of cells (18650 and others) available in retail stores? I mean protected cells or "safe cells". Is it a US regulation prohibiting them? I see regular Lithium primaries, but no rechargeables. Will they ever be in retail in the US? That's another reason for me, I can get NiMHs anywhere, but I have to order Li types from overseas.

 

[Black Rose]

That brings up a question. Why is it that there aren't any of the types of cells (18650 and others) available in retail stores? I mean protected cells or "safe cells". Is it a US regulation prohibiting them?

Fear of litigation would be a major reason I would think, due to improper battery usage, charging incidents, etc.

Demand would be the other. Not sure who else besides flashaholics and possibly the R/C folks would be interested in loose 18650, etc. cells.

 

[Mikellen]

Thank you jusval for starting this thread. Your questions concerning the sfaety and concern in using lithium rechargeables directly relate to my consideration of whether to make the financial investment and educational preparation on using lithium rechargeables, or just stick with NIMH batteries or possibly venture into Eneloops.
I really would like to just have an economical way of using batteries in such a way that I don't have to put forth too much effort in assuring that the cells will not explode or have to periodically check the voltage of cells, or be careful not to over charge or over discharge cells, or have to find some systematic way of knowing when to recycle batteries in order not to compromise safety.
I think I'm a little intimidated on the level of commitment one should probably have to using these type of cells. I commend all of you who responsibly use these cells. Maybe I'm making more out of it than I should.
I think I just convinced myself that I'll stay with NIMH, and will keep an open mind to possibly one day become more knowledgeable and maybe take the plunge into lithium rechargeables.

Thank you jusval and all CPF members who replied and who will continue to reply to this thread.

 

[LuxLuthor]

That brings up a question. Why is it that there aren't any of the types of cells (18650 and others) available in retail stores? I mean protected cells or "safe cells". Is it a US regulation prohibiting them? I see regular Lithium primaries, but no rechargeables. Will they ever be in retail in the US? That's another reason for me, I can get NiMHs anywhere, but I have to order Li types from overseas.

The main rechargeable Lithium cells that first came out, and have been around for many years were the Lithium Cobalt...in forms of LiPo, Cylindrical (i.e. 18650), and various custom size prizmatic shapes. The demand driving their development over NiCad/NiMH was to have a more concentrated energy source (size/weight) to power the shrinking portable electronics.

With the more concentrated Lithium Cobalt energy source came new risks of explosive runaway fires in excess of 2,000° F. Protections were needed, so special PCB circuits were developed to manage Li-Ion optimal performance, cell life, and dangers. Now thought to be safe, Lithium Cobalt took the lead over NiMH. Most portable electronics began the switchover to Li-Ions.

Then the laptop battery pack fires happened.

These battery packs from all the top brand laptops used Lithium Cobalt cells. Millions of battery (pack) recalls happened at great expense. The "Golden Child" Li-Ion was forever tarnished, including transport regulations & restrictions enacted by various governments.

Thank God that the battery companies were smart enough not to sell widespread individual Li-Ion cells, because they are not as safe as NiMH...unless the user is more educated about them.

There would have been many more disasters if people bought and used them as casually as they treat NiMH. So like Black Rose says, it was always an increased liability risk. We only have them in our lights because of AW, Pila, or some other (variable quality) Chinese manufacturer with no liability risk concerns.

Quite frankly, even the US based battery resellers that sell Pila, AW, or Trustfire/Ultrafire generic type cells are subjecting their personal and corporate assets to significant risk if anything catastrophic were to happen. The US legal system would rake them over the coals, although those sold with protection circuits would have some recourse if the reseller had evidence of elaborate safety testing. Obviously when some of us tear tool packs apart to cannibalize cells, we assume all the risk.

All of this history is why there is a move to the "safe Lithium chemistry" which was available long ago--but not developed. The downside of safe chemistry is the lower energy mAh density as compared to Lithium Cobalt. In choosing the positive higher Cobalt energy density, the battery companies thought they had the negative risk covered with the protection PCB circuits.

Obviously they lost that bet when the fires started...no matter how small the percentage. You just cannot have a Lithium battery fire in devices that people are using. If they had been as safe as NiMH, they would have taken over that market. Now the safe Lithium Ion chemistry cells are coming out, but other than high current output (as needed for power tools), they are not dramatically superior to NiMH...especially with the low self-discharge Eneloop NiMH type.

 

[StarHalo]

The need to educate yourself about Li-Ions before using them is not overstated, however the "dangers" of their misuse are brought up a bit much. I know of at least a few CPFers who have been injured by exploding primary 123 cells, but not anyone who suffered anything similar from a Li-Ion cell. I'd say if you're using 123 cells, you're already using a battery that's at least, if not more so, dangerous than a Li-Ion.

The cost and effort needed to use Li-Ions is frequently overblown as well. The majority of flashaholics who switch over to Li-Ions will need no new/unique devices (except the charger) or measuring/testing tools. You only need to keep the cell between 3.6 and 4.15 volts, and both your charger and flashlight will key you in when something needs to be done - (using the most common $20 Li-Ion charger, the Ultrafire WF-139 as an example: ) You put the battery on the charger, when the light turns green, you remove the battery, that's exactly 4.15 volts. You put the battery in your light, when it can no longer hold high/max mode (or when it dims notably for direct drive), it's right around 3.6 volts. Wash, rinse, repeat.

If you decide you do want a digital multimeter (DMM) to keep tabs on things, there's no great cost or complication needed here either; I recently purchased a full-function DMM at Harbor Freight for $2.99. Using a $2 resistor from Radio Shack, I can do a highly accurate battery load test just like the $70 ZTS meters. Total cost of my Li-Ion monitoring rig: $5. The battery cost more than the testing equipment.

In short, don't be scared away from a truly revolutionary power source just from some dire warnings. If you really want to carry a bleeding-edge 21st century serious flashaholic light that's had every facet engineered to perfection, don't restrict it by dumbing down the battery. For ~$30 you could squeeze that last bit out of your flashlight and take your flashaholism a giant leap forward. I say give it a try! :thumbsup:

 

[Mikellen]

StarHalo, thanks for that explanation. I am reconsidering my decision about only using NIMH and CR123A batteries. The M30W sure would be nice to use at its full output in a Surefire 6P without having to resort to multiple extenders for the increased form factor of 3 NIMH batteries.

 

[Benson]

If you decide you do want a digital multimeter (DMM) to keep tabs on things, there's no great cost or complication needed here either; I recently purchased a full-function DMM at Harbor Freight for $2.99. Using a $2 resistor from Radio Shack, I can do a highly accurate battery load test just like the $70 ZTS meters. Total cost of my Li-Ion monitoring rig: $5. The battery cost more than the testing equipment.

IMHO, any serious flashaholic should have a DMM, regardless of what chemistry they run. Checking the voltage of CR123s to prevent driving one of them into reverse polarity and in your hand is certainly adequate reason; monitoring NiMH or KOH voltages, although less important and dramatic, still handily justifies $5, or even $20, of equipment, especially if you're packing "known-good" batteries to carry as working spares that you may need power from later.

I always check the voltage on every cell before I stash my working spares in pockets, etc., and at least the whole battery, if not each cell, on any light. I don't really need to, as my life is quite unlikely to depend on my spares working, but I feel better knowing my equipment is in order. My charger could malfunction, I could put a battery in the wrong pile, a battery itself might have shorted and self-discharged, but I've got a decent chance at catching any of these before it causes me real problems. You just can't do this without a DMM -- plugging each cell into a light would work, I suppose, but I don't have that kind of time, and if I had to do that, I'd wind up not checking.

 

[cave dave]

... - (using the most common $20 Li-Ion charger, the Ultrafire WF-139 as an example: ) You put the battery on the charger, when the light turns green, you remove the battery, that's exactly 4.15 volts. ....

I think its clearly been demonstrated that the WF139 does not charge to exactly 4.15v. When the light turn green individual units could be anywhere between 4.10v and 4.25v from user reports. It also continues to charge the battery after the light turn green and that is simply unsafe if you forget about it. ( I use a wall timer to cut mine off)

I think the safest cheap charger is the Pila and it runs a bit over $40 and add some decent AW cells and shipping and you are talking about $70 for two rechargeable batteries and charger. That will buy a lot of primaries or Nimh.

Then while you are at it look at the runtime curves for the Nitecore D10 (AA) on Nimh vs LiIon vs the Nitecore EX10 on Rcr123. This will you give you an idea of the real performance gains of LiIon. For instance the Ex10 is on LiIon is only brighter for the first 10 min and actually has a shorter runtime. Note: The human eyes response to brightness is logarithmic so the brightness gain may not actually be all that noticeable in use.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=202436

Another thing to note is that current LiIons only have a 3-5 yr shelf life whether you use them or not. (under typical storage conditions)

 

[StarHalo]

If you're looking for the *cheapest* possible light, then yes, NiMH AAs are the way to go. Lumens don't get any more guilt-free than Eneloops. However if you put a higher priority on output and runtime, Li-Ion is the clear winner. My JetBeam Jet-I MK IBS, for example, will output 130 lumens at max and run for 40 hours at minimum on a NiMH; replace it with a 14500 and now it outputs 225 lumens on max and run for 50 hours at minimum. More output and more runtime, by margins that can't be missed.

RCR123s are more about rechargeability in general, with a focus on output and cost, less runtime. Most 123 lights that are made for RCRs get only a mild output boost, but it's guilt-free output, as there is no NiMH 123. Using a single RCR for only a matter of weeks in an oft-used light can very quicky add up to a lot of savings over the cost of having to constantly buy primaries.

 

[LuxLuthor]

The need to educate yourself about Li-Ions before using them is not overstated, however the "dangers" of their misuse are brought up a bit much. I know of at least a few CPFers who have been injured by exploding primary 123 cells, but not anyone who suffered anything similar from a Li-Ion cell. I'd say if you're using 123 cells, you're already using a battery that's at least, if not more so, dangerous than a Li-Ion.

The cost and effort needed to use Li-Ions is frequently overblown as well. The majority of flashaholics who switch over to Li-Ions will need no new/unique devices (except the charger) or measuring/testing tools. You only need to keep the cell between 3.6 and 4.15 volts, and both your charger and flashlight will key you in when something needs to be done - (using the most common $20 Li-Ion charger, the Ultrafire WF-139 as an example: ) You put the battery on the charger, when the light turns green, you remove the battery, that's exactly 4.15 volts. You put the battery in your light, when it can no longer hold high/max mode (or when it dims notably for direct drive), it's right around 3.6 volts. Wash, rinse, repeat.

If you decide you do want a digital multimeter (DMM) to keep tabs on things, there's no great cost or complication needed here either; I recently purchased a full-function DMM at Harbor Freight for $2.99. Using a $2 resistor from Radio Shack, I can do a highly accurate battery load test just like the $70 ZTS meters. Total cost of my Li-Ion monitoring rig: $5. The battery cost more than the testing equipment.

In short, don't be scared away from a truly revolutionary power source just from some dire warnings. If you really want to carry a bleeding-edge 21st century serious flashaholic light that's had every facet engineered to perfection, don't restrict it by dumbing down the battery. For ~$30 you could squeeze that last bit out of your flashlight and take your flashaholism a giant leap forward. I say give it a try! :thumbsup:

I don't agree with a number of minimalizing points you made....but the same discussions have taken place a number of times over the last couple of years. The numerous spontaeous laptop explosions and 2000° F runaway fires that are almost impossible to extinguish happened with Li-Ions. They even had protection circuits in their packs.

The issue is not about scaring people, but rather recommending that they educate themself on proper use of Li-Ion, and not assume they are just like a NiMH rechargeable battery. There are reasons why Li-Ion (Cobalt) cells are not sold individually in stores. Once you understand the risks and how these cells are different you can take the appropriate steps and enjoy using them. If you are not going to take the time to learn how to properly use them, you should not switch to Li-Ion (Cobalt) cells. That is the point that should not be minimalized.

 

[VidPro]

well ya know, i took many laptop batteries apart, before and after the times of the fires, and they may have had protection, but it SUCKED, and they sure as heck didnt have balancing, and they charged fast, and they didnt have various checking they could have had, and they had thermal protection but only 1item for 6-8-10-more cells, thermal views of only 2 cells and no balancing , worthless. big rack of series too.
they were outputting stuff that didnt have even the physical protections, like anode disconnect.
BUT
they had all sorts of cute FEATURES like readouts, and info-whatever, and computer connects, etc, they could get all the fun in, just forgot the work

if laptop incidents are why we should fear, then fast charging, poor protection, bad thermal probing, and no balancing and using/charging in series, crappy cells, is what we should fear ABOUT it.

they made obvious misteaks, a person could see in hindsight, that other manufatures did NOT make in thier devices, who had no hindsight to worry about .
it was so dark ages assembly for the facts they had at the time. and notice they didnt stop putting the cells in, they just started doing what should have been done to begin with. i can betcha that you can still crack open some of the stuff out there, and notice some obvious misses still.

then as these major $$$ lights advance We Are using , they have cutoffs, low battery indications, fit protected cells correctally, some even have proper drive curcuits , single battery often, and dont charge in series, and have a buncha slower chargers, and a baseload of info, its as if WE aint intending to be a laptop here

but then back to the OP, I JUST want to charge and ignore, to bad, there is some stuff you can not ignore vrses Ni-mhy.
The Consumer devices that use protected cells, in protected charging, with thermal checking, and use Single cells, like "everyone is using" dont have very many problems or thought required indeed like cell phones, cameras, pdas, etc using single cells, or power tools that use series cells with specific cell items.
so
if you want a propriatary system for a single flashlight, then it would be the same. We will get ya a Nolkia flashlight with a propriatary nolkia cell in it, and only use the nolkia propriatary charger. or you can get yourself a Black n' Deckner flashlight in a package at the hardware store, and just use it as designed.
but
if your even going to shove a AA SIZED li-ion in a AAsized flashlight, your going to need to know something, cause it isnt your usual battery.
and now we got 4+ different types/styles of cells in lithiums and uses that are different.
even plunking a PRIMARY lithium cell into a flashlight that wants Alkalines ONLY can be an issue (for some lights).
If
you want everything to be done for you, then you will be stuck with a system that: you bought the light, the battery, and the charger, all for the exactaly perfectally matched item. AKA buy a Pila, its batteries , its charger, and DONT put them in anything else ever.
then you have started.
the next thing you will be asking , is how can i get this to work with that, and that to work with this, and will this go there and, then its not a propriatary locked down system, and then you will need to know something. because that is what is happening, people have 20+ lights not one, they have lights that do use, and lights that dont. they have chargers that switch, and cells that the charger MUST be switched for, they got multiple chargers, cells, lights, and the lights dont as often come with a propriatary plug in the back, so there are things we all needed to know.

 

[RyanA]

I'd have to disagree with the initial statement about maintenance. The nice thing about lithium cells is that I do not have to worry about them discharging themselves over a short period of time. I still have a set of AW rcr123's that have been sitting in my pelican case for about a year now since I last charged them. They're still hovering around 3.8-3.9 volts.
But I can't force you to make the jump to lithium if you don't want to. Truthfully I still use NiMH for some things. There are some that view it as an obsolete chemistry, especially in RC. I do not.
If you are interested in getting the maximum performance out of a NiMH cell look up the RV7 driver. Nowadays I belive it is known as DX sku 7880. It can provide 800ma at 3volts to the led (which should be comparable with most lithium powered led lights [for example the SF E2DL is around 800ma to the led]). But it must be run off of NiMH as it needs to draw over 2 amps of current from the battery to do this. But even so, because NiMH batteries have well developed capacities you should get decent runtime (~ the 45min range) even with a low self discharge cell (wich usually take a capacity hit of ~500-700ma). So with the right circuitry a NiMH based light can provide competitive output a runtime in comparison to a lithium powered light. And as an added bonus it should be more accessible to a base level user. Meaning you can give one to a buddy without worrying about them burning their house down.
Rock on Jusval! Keep asking the hard questions.