battery and battery chargers for dummies

MK9

Newly Enlightened
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Sep 19, 2009
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Hey Guys,

Please post the links that explains batteries (rechargeable and single use), their voltage and how it affects LED flashlights and what ever else I may need to know about them. And I am not fimilar with anything electrical so please keep it simple.

The reason:
Now I'm looking to get either a Fenix PD30+ R4, a Quark 123-2 R5 or equivalent for an everyday carry light. There seems to quite a performance difference between AA and 123 batteries.
 
Wow. This is really hard to answer succinctly.

Here are the brief notes.

Up to a point, voltage matters. Hence, CR123A cells with ~3 V can make lights shine brighter than AA cells with ~1.5 V.

However
: it is complicated.

AA cells come in alkaline primary versions and NiMH rechargeable versions. The NiMH version is almost an exact substitute for the alkaline version in voltage and run time, except that the NiMH cell and deliver more power and in bright lights can run longer.

CR123A cells come (only) as primary lithium cells. They do not have an exact rechargeable equivalent. Either the voltage fails to match, or the capacity (run-time) is much less.

So, if you buy a CR123A powered light, you are making a presumed decision to use single-use cells. If you think or know you want a rechargeable solution, then it may be that a CR123A light is not what you want. But as I said, it is complicated. There can be options, but they are not simple plug and play alternatives and you will need to spend some time learning the gory details.

Or you can consider a single AA cell light. Honestly, unless you need a million candlepower floodlight, a single AA light can be plenty bright these days.
 
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not even going to try and answer that :)
you say "tell me everything" it is possible, but not practical.
mabey you could ask more specific questions, even multiples 1) 2) 3)
then keep asking.

like start with One single light item, or one specific battery chemistry, or one specific battery size?
then build from there?
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=133440

get some ideas from the stickeys.
 
As the others say, the options get pretty complicated.

My general recommendation basically echoes Mr Happy's: if you want rechargeables, go AA. This is a pretty safe investment because the NiMH chemistry rechargeables are very stable, and work as drop-in replacements in most electronics, not just flashlights. You can invest in a good charger and start buying batteries first for your flashlights, then anything else you have around that runs on AAs, until the major stuff is covered.

Lithium primaries (non-rechargeables) -- mostly in CR123A form for flashlights -- have high energy density, are lightweight, work better than other battery types in very cold weather, and have great shelf life in storage, usually 10 years. The big catch is that they're difficult to find in retail stores for reasonable prices. If you go this route, you should be prepared to order online in bulk -- you can get prices down to $1.50 per battery or lower this way. There are also safety concerns to be aware of; when alkalines or NiMHs fail badly, they merely leak, fizzle or melt. When lithiums fail badly, they explode with highly toxic fumes. (You don't need to be afraid of lithiums, just aware and not careless.)

There are various lithium-ion chemistries for rechargeable batteries, but as Mr Happy hinted, in the form factors required for flashlights these are special-purpose batteries that were never intended by their manufacturers to be used by consumers this way. That means there are a ton of complications and safety issues that we have to manage in our heads when trying to use them. I mention this so you know what people mean when they refer to Li-ion, but I recommend just avoiding them for now. Get a flashlight first, see how you use it, then consider coming back for more info on these battery types.

So the main decision you should make is between NiMH AA rechargeables and Lithium CR123A primaries.

Generally speaking, a 2xAA flashlight is able put out as much light for about the same runtime as a 1xCR123A light. 1xAA lights generally top out at a lower brightness, but current LED efficiency is so high that it's often bright enough anyway. 2xCR123A lights can generally go a bit brighter than the others, but most of the gain is usually in runtime. The exact details will vary depending on the lights you look at.

I'll give you an overview of the three main lights I have and why, in case it helps you decide:

The first one I got is a Quark 123²; a major factor in my decision was actually the physical size, which I find fits great in my hand. I decided to just get it, use it, and see how often I actually ended up buying replacement batteries for it. It turns out I'm not going through batteries fast enough to justify going to a special-purpose rechargeable setup, which is great because it means less to keep track of. This is the light I carry when I'm in dark places or expect to need one for work. (I'll add that I rarely use it on Max; I just don't need that amount of light in most situations.)

The second light runs on 1xAA: I already had a rechargeable AA setup for other electronics, so my choice of battery was easy. This is the light I go to when I know I'll want continuous light for a while (since I won't need to buy batteries), or when other people need to borrow a light. The only situation I've ever run into where this light wasn't bright enough for me was when locating baby quail in the shade of brush -- under full sunlight. Not exactly a common scenario...

The third light is a 1xCR2 (lithium primary smaller than CR123A) on my keychain. My main reason for choosing this one was sheer size and weight, and I use it so lightly that buying replacement batteries is quite acceptable to me. I consider it a backup light in case one of my other lights fails or isn't around, although it sometimes gets used for things like reading schedules, maps, etc.

In hindsight, I would have been happy choosing a 1xAA EDC light from the beginning. (The 1xAA light I have now is not physically designed the way I would want for EDC, a decision I made on purpose because I already had the Quark 123².) Well, mostly happy -- I do like playing with all these different lights and batteries...

Hope that helps a bit.
 
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Quension, that is a great reply! I don't know if it answers all the questions, but it sure helped clear up some things for me. It also helped me take up my mind about whether I wanted to add a 1x123 to my collection or just stay with some of the great 1xAA's I already have. Thanks!
 
To the original poster, it would be helpful if you described the sort of use you envision for your light.

If it's for emergency purposes only then maybe you care more about unused cell lifetime than anything. In my case at least I find that a light that gets carried all the time tends to get used more often which means batteries are discharged more often which tells me I want to look at battery selection with both economy and ecology in mind.

I also use several of my lights (including the one I carry every day) for daytime (strobe) and night time biking (constant output on high if not max) and as a result I go through cells in these lights far more quickly than if I were just EDC'ing a light for general and emergency use.

In addition to flashlights most households have other devices like toys or clocks or radios and such which often take AA or AAA cells and my family of four is no exception. As I can't stand chucking primaries away (recycling them) gratuitously I strongly favour rechargables. Over the past decade NiMH rechargables have become so good, rechargers so smart, and lights so efficient, I can't find a reason not to use them for general purpose lights.

In fact while I have some AA/AAA lithium and even cheap alkaline cells on hand in the emergency kits, I fully expect rechargables to be my first line of fuel for any emergency, protracted or not.

If you happen to run out of juice and have no spare on hand an AA or AAA powered light can be refuelled at any convenience store, drug store or corner gas station in even the smallest town.

It is very tempting to get caught up in maximum output comparisons when looking at lights, when really there isn't much perceptible difference between a light that outputs 130 lumens max or 170 or 200. If you find yourself leaning to CR123 lights just because of raw output differences on paper chances are you'll find yourself very happy with an AA light in an appropriate configuration for your needs. Most modern single-AA sized lights will put out more than enough light over long enough runtime for most general purpose and EDC use. Other factors like size or a pocket clip design or even colour and design will tend to matter much more to you in the long run for a light you intend to carry all the time.
 
I should have said it's the runtimes of the 123s compared to AAs that interests me. Even if I were to go on a night time walk in the woods with no moon, I'm sure 50 lumens would be fine.
I can not see me using max lumens for much of anything other than to impress my my friends. :whistle:

Besides, I think the decision for which flashlight based on battereis has been made.
The local Costco finally is carrying the Eneloop pack. 4-AAAs and 8 AAs.
I picked it up for $24.99.
No spacer for Ds and Cs but I very seldom use my ML 2D cell anymore.
 
Great thread! I have similar budding interest in batteries...

Where do mAh's (Milli Amp Hours?) fit into the picture? Is that part of the discharging or charging equation?
 
Where do mAh's (Milli Amp Hours?) fit into the picture? Is that part of the discharging or charging equation?

Hi stove. mA (milliampere) is a measurement of current. mAh (milliampere-hour) is a measurement of current over time. They are two different types of units. mA is a rate, and mAh is a quantity.

An analogy (probably a rather poor one:)) would be mA is similar to how fast you are moving, where as mAh is how far you have gone. The difference is similar to comparing units on your speedometer to those on your odometer. They are not the same, however related.

mA and mAh are measures of current and current over time, therefore not a measurement of power, W (Watt). The relationship of current and voltage is used to determine power.

You may want to checkout some of the threads in the "sticky" at the top of this Forum, if you haven't already. This one that Darell started is helpful, as well as HKJ's thread on using a DMM.

Dave
 
Where do mAh's (Milli Amp Hours?) fit into the picture? Is that part of the discharging or charging equation?

45/70 has already done the job but at the risk of confusing the matter I'll throw this in. I'd composed this hours ago but for some reason didn't press the post button. Definitely look at the prior work done here, there's a ton of information on CPF that can help you.

In simplest terms milliamps is a unit of measure describing the flow of current; milliamp-hour is a unit of measure describing cell capacity.

Flow: When you see a measure of current such as 1000 milliamps (same as 1 amp) that is a measure of the flow of current. If that flow were constant for an hour you'd have a milliamp-hour of current added or removed from the cell depending on the operation you are performing (charging or using the cell). Whether or not you can ever retrieve that 1000 milliamp hour of stored current depends on the condition of the cell, or when you attempt to retrieve it as cells self-discharge - some more, some less - over time.

Capacity: The unit of measure - Milliampere-hour (mAh) - and related larger units of measure like ampere-hour (think car batteries) can be thought of as measurement of storage capacity. It's somewhat theoretical or based on certain assumptions in that if you drain the cell at very high or very low rates you may not see numbers quite as advertised, rather like if you drive an auto-mobile very fast or very slow you may not get the mileage you expect for a given amount of fuel.

If you have a smart charger that provides a display of what is going on during charging or conditioning operations, when it reports a figure in mAh it is telling you how much current has been removed from the cell (discharged) or added (charge).

Putting them both together in flashlight operation:

A Sanyo Eneloop AA cell claims a total storage capacity of 2000 mAh, so let's say you have broken in such a cell and have it fully charged and installed in a flashlight. Modern LED flashlights running on max output can easily produce currents greater than 1 amp (1000 milliamps).

Let's pretend Flashlight X produces current flow of 1500 milliamps on max light output in a perfectly linear way, and that it were actually possible and desirable to run that flashlight at constant output while draining your battery to zero charge:

  • Sanyo Eneloop: 2000/1500 = 1.3 hours of theoretical use. If you had
  • A 2700 mAh cell: 2700/1500= 1.8 hours of theoretical use. An
  • 800 mAh AAA cell: would deliver only half an hour (800/1500 == 0.533) in this theoretical world.

Note that the storage capacity doesn't define what sort of current flow is possible when a device is draining it. A cell can deliver higher "flow" rates than its storage capacity would indicate. You can easily produce currents of 4000 millamps out of a 2000 milliampere-hour cell. This may not be good for the cell, but it is possible.

Is this helping or hurting? There are some good tutorial and link collections available here. For a rechargable battery newbie one of the important things you'll want to discover right away has to do with maintaining your fleet of cells. You'll find quite a bit of information on the drawbacks of charging NiMH cells too fast or too slowly (without the right charger) here.
 
Thanks 45/70, and Tandem... I think I now have a grip on mAh as a measurment of the rate of flow...

I guess my next question is what determines and limits a high or low rate of flow from the battery? (What keeps it from discharging all at once?) - In an incandescent bulb circuit, the current travels from the battery to the bulb where the resistance in the filament heats up (watts?) to create light... Is it the resistance of the bulb that limits the discharge of the battery?

Also, what happens to the excess voltage? Does it get recaptured / recharged by the battery?

Thanks!
 
Thanks 45/70, and Tandem... I think I now have a grip on mAh as a measurment of the rate of flow...

Hopefully that was a typo, remember, mAh is a unit of measure of cell capacity, mA is a unit of measure of the rate of current flow.

As for your next question I think you need to step back for a moment and learn a basic or two. Try searching here and out on the internet for Ohm's law. This is a fundamental principle. Back in electronics in high school (too long ago) we drew a triangle as a memory aid:

Code:
[FONT="Courier New"]          E
       -------
       I  |  R[/FONT]

E is voltage in volts
I is current in amperes
R is resistance in ohms

If you know any two you can calculate the third.

E = I * R
R = E / I
I = E / R

If you have a known voltage (pretend your cell is constant for a moment) say 1.5v from an alkaline cell and can measure the resistance of a circuit (easy with a simple incandescent bulb in series with a cell) you can determine the current that should flow through the circuit when live. Say your circuit presents 2 ohms of resistance, then E/R = 1.5/2 = 0.75 amps or 750 milliamps. Be careful not to mix different measurement units i.e. don't try to perform calculations with a mix of volts and milliamperes, convert all to the same power of 10. Whole units in volts, amps, ohms is probably safest.

Ok, there's the basics, go search now for more.
 
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