Battery pack building/charging questions

Lumencraft (Matt)

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I would like to make battery pack for one of my M*glites. But there are a few things I need to understand first.

1. What is the "real" way packs are welded together? I know packs can be soldered together with braided wire and such but what other options are there?

2. What is the best thing to use for the ends, and where to get them? (like button tops etc). And what do I use to separate contacts between the button top and the cells that wont melt under heavy load?

3. Is it ok to use a NICAD charger like one from a dewalt or like tool pack on a NIMH pack if the voltage is the same? If not why?

4. When building a pack sutch as a 13 cell, is it ok to use a sub c as the 13th if it is higher MAH than the AA cells like 12 2600mah AAs and 1 3000mah sub c?

5. I also need recommendations on the highest mah AA cell that can be discharged at 10+ amps. So far the elite 1700mah is the only one I have found with a discharge graph, but I would really like to go with higher mah cells than that.

Thanks
 
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For starters, battery packs are best spot welded. Great electrical connection with very low heat build-up.
Read the note about dual pulse capacitive discharge spot welders on this page from the Powerstream website.
 
Thanks LH, I guess since I dont see me getting a spot welder any time soon, we can move on to the questions, or if anyone has tips on soldering packs that would be good too.
 
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I would like to make battery pack for one of my M*glites. But there are a few things I need to understand first.

1. What is the "real" way packs are welded together? I know packs can be soldered together with braided wire and such but what other options are there?

As mentioned already, spot welding. They make small tool for this type of work, they aren't large and cumbersome like a regular welder because they are just charging up a capacitor and quickly discharging it for the weld.

2. What is the best thing to use for the ends, and where to get them? (like button tops etc). And what do I use to separate contacts between the button top and the cells that wont melt under heavy load?

If you get setup to do spot welds, then you'll just want to use flat top cells. You'll want some spare "tabs" to make connections at the ends of the "rows" of cells to other "rows" of cells.

3. Is it ok to use a NICAD charger like one from a dewalt or like tool pack on a NIMH pack if the voltage is the same? If not why?

General rule of thumb is "no," but it depends on the NiCD charger and depends on how "correct" you want your charging to be.

There's no 100% correct answer to this question, because it depends on how much imperfection in charge method you are willing to deal with. And it also depends on the specific charger in question.

many of them are simple timer based chargers that just charge at a given rate for an hour and then go to trickle charge, these won't really work right for NiMH since the capacity will be different. You could make it work with some fidlefartin around.

many of them use a simple voltage peak charge termination, where it's not looking for any voltage "dip" from the pack like a smart charger would, it just brings it up to some high voltage (usually over 1.5V per cell for the pack) and then terminates, this would be hard on a NiMH pack. Not good.

Some cheaper ones are just trickle chargers, these would be ok if you manually terminated the charger after the proper number of hours for a full charge.

Some chargers terminate based on temperature, again, not the best for NiMH cells but this would also work.

Most of the NiCD only chargers, take advantage of the fact that NiCD cells are very tolerant of abuse and don't really care HOW they are charged. NiMH is more sensitive to charging methods, and will wear out faster if you use a lousy charging method.

I'm sure I've missed some points to be made here, but you get the idea.

4. When building a pack sutch as a 13 cell, is it ok to use a sub c as the 13th if it is higher MAH than the AA cells like 12 2600mah AAs and 1 3000mah sub c?

Not a great idea. but it would work, but wouldn't be ideal for the pack, the pack would have trouble staying in balance properly, especially when you consider that most Sub-C high current cells are going to have lower resistance than most AA high current cells. Ideally speaking, if you want to use a different shape cell at the end of a pack, it would be best to match the capacity and internal resistance as closely as possible with that cell. Look at 4/5ths size sub-C cells for closer matches in capacity.

5. I also need recommendations on the highest mah AA cell that can be discharged at 10+ amps. So far the elite 1700mah is the only one I have found with a discharge graph, but I would really like to go with higher mah cells than that.

Thanks

The general rule of thumb is that as you increase in capacity, the tolerance to high current drops, as you build a cell for higher current capability, the maximum capacity is dropped.

Don't worry too much about label ratings as far as mAH is concerned. Look at actual discharge comparisons in the real world, under real loads, and see how various cells do.

Eneloops will handle 10 amps, and they are rated at 2000mAH. Does that mean they are a better cell for the job? Nope! At 10 amps they will not deliver 2000mAH of capacity and will suffer from significant voltage sag when compared to dedicated high current cells like the Elite 1700s.

Hope that helps :)

Eric
 
Vesture, what kind and type of soldering tools do you own currently?

LH, Right now the iron I have would be insufficient, however I am looking into some better stuff. I have read some of the material on the RC forums, and most of the post I read were from people using a >50w soldering iron.

Thanks also to Nessus-GTE, for the vid,

I was wandering about the tool used in that vid if that is the small welder like tool that mdocod mentioned? If so where can I get one?

Mdocod, appreciate the info especially the eneloop vs elite under 10a and use of sub Cs in the pack.

Lots of good info here, more opinions and ideas still welcome.
 
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Most of the home brew packs in the RC crowd aren't soldering cells end-eto-end, they just line em all up next to each-other, glue em together and use tabs the whole way. it is possible to end-to-end solder but there's a heck of a trick to it.
 
Most of the home brew packs in the RC crowd aren't soldering cells end-eto-end, they just line em all up next to each-other, glue em together and use tabs the whole way. it is possible to end-to-end solder but there's a heck of a trick to it.

I was thinking worst case, I would solder some braid with the cells side by side then just fold it over, and then maybe insulate the stick before wrapping them together to be sure none of the braid accidentally shorts out.
 
Any luck with this, vesture? This is a project I also have been interested in.
Especially lately, since I know of no more custom pack manufacturers around here anymore.

For me the hardest to find part is the magnetic L brace that stacks the batteries for soldering. I decided to make my own with steel and neodymium magnets.
 
Hey Nessus,

I haven't worked on this in a while, however I was able to achieve a reasonable pack using a very hot soldering Iron and my own version of a hammer head soldering tip. I don't know anything about using magnets for this. One solution I thought of after seeing the vid you posted is to get a 2x4 piece of wood about 12" long and cut a V shaped groove in it the length of the piece and then cut an angle at the bottom so when the piece is screwed down it will stand at about a 65 degree angle.


This is only a thought I had, and I have not taken the time to do this yet, I think I just used a piece of pvc cut long ways or something:thinking:. The only thing I can say for sure is you need a very HOT iron to do this or you may damage the cells. My Iron claims 950 degrees, and more would still be better (a hotter iron will heat only the ends very quickly, where a lower temp will cook the whole cell before the ends get hot enough). I was able to get a very solid connection by doing a few simple things. One was rough up the ends of the cells with a dremel or file etc. then prob cleaning them with alcohol wouldn't hurt. Use a soldering paste on both ends, this makes a huge difference. Then tin the ends and set the first 2 cells in the carriage, place the iron between the 2 cells for a couple seconds, remove the iron and quickly slide the top cell onto the bottom. If the iron is hot enough this will give a very solid connection between the cells.

I realize you probably knew a lot of this, but I figured I would just as well post the whole idea.
 
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Vesture, just curious, did you have a way to check the individual cells you used in your pack for capacity before you put it all together?
 
Vesture, just curious, did you have a way to check the individual cells you used in your pack for capacity before you put it all together?

Hi LumenHound,

The short answer is no. I built the pack I did make was out of a fairly cheap cell because I wanted to make sure my solder joints were going to be effective before going with a more expensive pack. The only testing I was able to do really was with the group of cells testing vf and run time. I have not come up with a way to test the cells individually. I would certainly like to hear ideas on the subject though.
 
Awesome! Thanks for the link Lux! Somehow I missed that thread! And the elusive battery jig I've been scouring for.
 
Awesome! Thanks for the link Lux! Somehow I missed that thread! And the elusive battery jig I've been scouring for.

It works great, but make sure if you peel label off your cells, that you coat the jig sides with clear plastic (box) tape, or the batteries will short from one can to the next. I have used it a lot, and never had a problem.
 

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