I read that some in the British Army used iPods or rechargable razors when out in the field.
Best battery for Surefire Aviator?
- Thread starter samoset
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samoset
Newly Enlightened
He loves flashlights. I wonder if he's on this forum. Thanks for warning me, in case he he likes to talk through his hat just to annoy me and the average person. Face to face, he doesn't talk through his hat, but that could be to fool me.
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The 3V rechargeables from KeepPower work well in the one-cell Aviator.
samoset
Newly Enlightened
In that flashlight, do you prefer rechargeables?
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I switch between rechargeables and primaries, but use rechargeables for most of my daily use.
There are numerous reports of people using 3.7V batteries without problems and occasionally I put the Aviator head on a two-cell SureFire body with a 16650. Works great and the head never gets overly hot, even when it's on high for a while. It isn't an officially sanctioned combination, so try it at your own risk.
samoset
Newly Enlightened
Is it brighter than with 3.0 volts? Do you know where I can read up on voltage converters and regulators used in flashlights? If the Aviator uses an efficient converter or regulator, it may be indifferent to the exact battery voltage.
Also, how did you get a two-cell body?
samoset
Newly Enlightened
I asked my neighbor if they let him keep his flashlight. He said he had to turn it in. It had a serial number and was considered part of his rifle. In that case, I'm sure they wouldn't have let soldiers supply their own rechargeable batteries any more than their own hand loaded ammunition. The Secretary of the Army probably wouldn't care about your or my opinion, but I think you should call him up and give him a piece of your mind.
I definitely would not recommend trying a 3.7V 16340 in the light - even briefly.
Also keep in mind that most of the newer '3.0V' cells (such as are invariably suggested here) on the market die instantly and without warning when discharged completely. Straight line to 0V on the ol' graph. Instant darkness.
For LFP123s, I've been using these with good results in 'EDIT: CR123A' LED lights for some years. They're from K2 Energy. Here's the datasheet they provided. They're also available bundled w/2-slot charger if you don't have an appropriate one. My last K2 order was with with 'batteriesinaflash', and they did a good job.
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If I EDC a light with a rechargeable battery in it, I carry a spare primary or a fully charged rechargeable spare cell in a battery locker. That's along with a high-output 2AAA penlight as back-up with Eneloops in it. Once high mode in the penlight no longer works and all I get is low or medium, I charge up the batts. the next day. If all else fails, there's a short and lightweight single-AAA flashlight with an Energizer lithium primary in it for just-in-case use, on my keychain. The penlight handles all of the mundane lighting chores I encounter. The main light is for the bigger jobs.
If using a rechargeable, don't risk damaging the light by going above the recommended voltage. And, either carry a spare battery or a 2nd light. Honestly, using a primary is not the most cost effective option. But it definitely is the easiest.
If using a rechargeable, don't risk damaging the light by going above the recommended voltage. And, either carry a spare battery or a 2nd light. Honestly, using a primary is not the most cost effective option. But it definitely is the easiest.
samoset
Newly Enlightened
Instantly and without warning? Is that a protection circuit in the cell? What makes the K2's different? (A protection circuit will shut off an ebike battery if the voltage gets too low, but you can tell it's coming, and if you give the battery a moment, you can continue.)
My Fenix HL 21 used to quit without warning when the battery got low, usually when I tried to switch if on, and sometimes while on. That's why I learned to change batteries with one hand in the dark.
batteriesinaflash shows appealing prices in search results, but when you click an item, the price is much higher. I haven't seen that before.
samoset
Newly Enlightened
About 1976, I wrote to Rayovac with a question, and a lady sent me a selection of krypton flashlight bulbs. Drawing 500ma at 2.38v, the PR2 seemed to have been invented to increase sales carbon-zinc D cells by making a pair go dim in a matter of minutes. Drawing something like 1000ma, these krypton bulbs seemed to be intended to dim alkaline cells just as fast.
The military solution for reliable service with 2 D cells was a bulb that drew only 270ma. I think it was the PR3.
With the coming of AA nicads, a krypton bulb make a pocket light powerful. The C/10 manual charger was the new gimmick to sell more batteries. We were told a cell would last 500 cycles, but I'd get about 50 before self-discharge made a cell worthless. I never knew how long a battery would last, and a 1000ma bulb would mean sudden death, so i carried a backup.
I remember one night in 1995 when I didn't have a backup because I was walking in open fields. The unexpected sound of Vietnamese music drew me deeper and deeper into the woods, where there were holes, century-old barbed wire, and copperheads. I'd switch on my nicads just long enough for a quick look ahead. If the batteries failed, even if I didn't step into something harmful I would have been unable to find my way out from under the canopy. My light had a spare bulb, and in that case, alkaline cells would have been better.
Just to clarify, what I'm referring to are viable secondary / rechargeable alternatives to a CR123A primary cell in 1xCR123A LED lights such as the Aviator you have, and their pros and cons.
The K2 cell I recommended is a LFP (LiFePO4) chemistry rechargeable cell (nominal rated output 3.2V / and charged @3.6V)) and is considered the 'nominal' type of cell for use as a secondary cell to replace a CR123A primary cell in many applications. For discussion purposes, it may be considered the same 'type' of cell Surefire sells for this application.
I also have no direct knowledge of / experience with the 'regulated 3.0V' cells of the type others have recommended in this thread (specifically the Keeppower version referenced), but they are a very different animal. From what I understand they contain a typical 3.6-4.2V Li-ion cell, plus electronic regulator circuitry to provide a constant output of 3.0V. Apparently their output is binary, either 1 or 0, either 3.0V or 'off'. Those recommending this cell can provide further details on it for you, as I don't have further info on them aside from what I present here.
They say a picture's worth 1000 words, so here's 3 for you to compare:
Note the discharge graph / 'curve' for a standard CR123A cell, as shown here:
The source of this image is:
Note that near the end of its discharge curve there is a 'knee' where the voltage somewhat gradually (not a straight vertical drop) decreases down to minimum shown. This is the period of decreasing output voltage which, in many cases, allows a user to become aware that they're nearing the end of the discharge capacity, and it's time to grab their spare light / battery to avoid being stuck in darkness.
Next, I provided the data sheet for the K2 cell in my previous post, and it shows the output / time discharge for that cell. It looks like this:
Note that similar to the CR123A primary, its output also hits a 'knee' near the end of its discharge capacity curve, after which it similarly decreases output in a somewhat gradual way, which often gives the user the opportunity to detect that their light is dimming, and thus likewise 'prepare' for the approaching darkness.
Lastly, here is an image provided by a CPF user of an output graph / curve, not of voltage, but lumens output from an LED light (which just happens to be an Aviator), which is essentially like what the cell's output voltage plot would look like:
The source of this image is this CPF post: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/5504519/
See that straight vertical line at the end? That's what sudden, unexpected / unanticipated darkness looks like.
You may be OK with that last one, but I am not OK with it. The only reason I brought this to your attention is because those who recommend such 'regulated Li-ion' cells (such as the Keeppower mentioned in this thread) usually do not mention this 'feature' of such cells. I also note that neither the Keeppower web site product page for this cell nor the product page I found for these cells at the site of a primary U.S. distributor of these cells mentions it either. It seems no one really wants you to know about it, but I felt I should inform you of it to avoid your possibly unknowingly using them and finding yourself in a bad situation because no one else informed you of it. Again, you may or may not care, but I felt it was good for you to make a fully informed decision. Your choice - doesn't matter to me.
Regarding the K2 cells I recommended and their pricing: I did a G-search for them, noted that the first result I saw was for the referenced distributor (which I have used), clicked the link, and it took me directly here:
Search results for: 'k2 energy 3 2v lfp123a high capacity rechargeable li ion battery'
BatteriesInAFlash offers thousands of batteries and chargers for cars, power tools, door locks and much more. We have a battery for your everyday needs.
www.batteriesinaflash.com
The price shown appears to be correct. I have always paid $7.xx ($7-8) for these cells over time, and from all 3 of the distributors I've bought them from. That is the standard, 'par' street price for these cells, and I feel it's reasonable. I doubt that you'll find them at a much lower 'unit' price, as I have not. I can't speak to whatever else you may have seen surfing around their site, but you buy them for less, please let me know.
If you don't already have charger(s) that can do LFP cells and would need to get one, this link shows their $10 charger, and also have it bundled with either 2 or 4 cells. When bundled with the charger, it appears you'd pay only ~$5 ea. for the cells, so that would be a small savings over the unit price.
Search results
BatteriesInAFlash offers thousands of batteries and chargers for cars, power tools, door locks and much more. We have a battery for your everyday needs.
www.batteriesinaflash.com
samoset
Newly Enlightened
Thanks. My Fenix HL121 would go from full brightness to dead without warning. Fortunately, I could change the AA cell with one hand in the dark.Just to clarify, what I'm referring to are viable secondary / rechargeable alternatives to a CR123A primary cell in 1xCR123A LED lights such as the Aviator you have, and their pros and cons.
The K2 cell I recommended is a LFP (LiFePO4) chemistry rechargeable cell (nominal rated output 3.2V / and charged @3.6V)) and is considered the 'nominal' type of cell for use as a secondary cell to replace a CR123A primary cell in many applications. For discussion purposes, it may be considered the same 'type' of cell Surefire sells for this application.
...
You may be OK with that last one, but I am not OK with it. The only reason I brought this to your attention is because those who recommend such 'regulated Li-ion' cells (such as the Keeppower mentioned in this thread) usually do not mention this 'feature' of such cells. I also note that neither the Keeppower web site product page for this cell nor the product page I found for these cells at the site of a primary U.S. distributor of these cells mentions it either. It seems no one really wants you to know about it, but I felt I should inform you of it to avoid your possibly unknowingly using them and finding yourself in a bad situation because no one else informed you of it. Again, you may or may not care, but I felt it was good for you to make a fully informed decision. Your choice - doesn't matter to me.
Regarding the K2 cells I recommended and their pricing: I did a G-search for them, noted that the first result I saw was for the referenced distributor (which I have used), clicked the link, and it took me directly here:
...
If you don't already have charger(s) that can do LFP cells and would need to get one, this link shows their $10 charger, and also have it bundled with either 2 or 4 cells. When bundled with the charger, it appears you'd pay only ~$5 ea. for the cells, so that would be a small savings over the unit price.
Search results
BatteriesInAFlash offers thousands of batteries and chargers for cars, power tools, door locks and much more. We have a battery for your everyday needs.
On the search you linked, it says their charger with two cells is $20, but when I click it, it changes to $35. Whatever brand I buy, I'll see if it has a low-voltage cutoff. Thanks.
Roger that, samoset - I understand the confusion issue now, because it happened to me too!
I originally found the cells I linked to above w/ G-search, which took me directly to the BIF product page, which reflects the cell price @~$8 unit price, and also lists the quantity breaks below. That is, as I said, a good and fair unit price for the cells.
BIF does however, on the higher-level pages such as their web site search results, list the lowest price possible at the highest quantity break, which is where you saw / noted the lower 'volume' price for the cells. Now I understand where you saw that first, since you had landed on one of the higher-level pages (probably from a search on their site).
I was misled myself when I then did the search on the BIF site for the charger pricing (which I also linked to previously), which also shows the minimum price for higher quantities; and yes, when you click an entry there to go to a product page, that page clearly shows the unit price largest prominently and first, and lists the quantity breaks below. I get it now. Looks like the charger unit price is indeed $20 (not 10), and price for their charger w/2 cells is $35. Those all seem to be fair prices, albeit higher than the quantity pricing we were both noting.
Search results for: 'k2 energy k2c123a 2 slot portable lithium ion cr123 battery charger'
BatteriesInAFlash offers thousands of batteries and chargers for cars, power tools, door locks and much more. We have a battery for your everyday needs.
www.batteriesinaflash.com
Search results for: 'k2 energy k2c123a battery charger with 2 lfp123a 3 2v li ion batteries'
BatteriesInAFlash offers thousands of batteries and chargers for cars, power tools, door locks and much more. We have a battery for your everyday needs.
www.batteriesinaflash.com
My recommendation of the K2 cells stands, as I believe they're the best performers, and $8/cell is a fair price. Note that the LFP cells SF sells are rated @450 mAh, whereas the K2 cells are rated @600mAH. The K2s also have full 'professional' documentation available for them (datasheet in my earlier post), which I doubt is available for the SF cells, and those 2 factors + my experience leads me to recommend them over the SF cells. It appears the SF cells are priced $1 cheaper, but I don't think that's a good tradeoff w/ the above factors;
https://batteryjunction.com/batteries/shop-by-size/16340-rcr123a/surefire-sf2r-cb
SF also sells a pair of their LFP cells bundled with a charger for $29, so slightly less than the $35 bundle from K2:
SureFire SFLFP123 Charger Kit - Includes 2-Bay Smart Charger and 2 x RCR123A / 16340 Lithium Ion (LiFePO4) Button Top Batteries
<h2>SureFire SFLFP123 Charger Kit</h2> <p>The <em>SureFire SFLFP123 Charger Kit</em> is specially designed to recharge <a href="https://www.batteryjunction.com/batteries/shop-by-type-batteries/rechargeable/surefire-sf2r-cb
batteryjunction.com
The SF charger, like the K2 charger, is dedicated for use with LFP123s. If your sole interest in getting LFPs and charging those specifically, either of those chargers would suffice. Now I'll tell you what I use, and would personally recommend for the charging requirement. For over 5 years, I've been using this charger for my LFP cells (XTAR VP2). It is a very good charger which I also use for all my Li-ion cells (16340, 14500, 18650), as it does all chemistries @ 3 different voltages, with selectable charging current (including 250 mA, appropriate for these smaller cells), and also a display to indicate cell voltage and state of charge. I have 3 of them, and they work very well. It's not a 'current' XTAR model, but is still available, and here's where I bought my 3rd one recently:
XTAR VP2 Li-ion, LifePo4 (3.6V/4.2V/4.35V) Battery Charger
The XTAR VP2 is a top-quality Li-ion and LifePo4 battery charger. With multiple charging rates and voltage options, it ensures efficient and safe charging for various battery types. Order now!
www.18650batterystore.com
FWIW, the honorable HKJ at lygte also tested this charger and called it a "very good" charger, which is very high praise indeed coming from him!
If you don't already have a charger that can do LFP cells, I would recommend going with this XTAR over either of the other 2 chargers mentioned above. It can charge most every Li-ion you need to charge up to 18650, and offers advantages the other little dedicated LFP chargers don't. Again, if the LPFs are all you're concerned with charging, then the dedicated (more limited) chargers would do that for you, and you could buy them from one source. Either way, your own choice to fit your own needs, as always.
Regarding your "low voltage cutoff" mention, as you can see from the discharge curves I posted, there is no hard low voltage cutoff with the K2 cells; at least not down to the 2.0V discharge shown on the graph, which is well past where one will be seeing significant dimming in most flashlights, so you need not be concerned about being left in the dark by a cell protection circuit, nor are you likely to 'over-discharge' them. The reason for this lack of cutoff is that, unlike most other Li-ion chemistries, LFP is routinely discharged to 2.5V, with 2.0V listed as the minimum in the specs; much lower than other chemistries AFAIK. I understand that 'over-discharge' is not the issue that it is for other chemistries, and that they do not become so 'dangerous' as the other types do when over-discharged; although discharging them below 2.0V may compromise their performance. Again, full datasheet in my earlier posts which details those specs.
Hope that helps clarify the matter, and eliminates the pricing confusion (some of thich I unfortunately contributed to [sorry 'bout that] ).
EDIT: You may also run across some LFP123 cells made by Tenergy, but I don't recommend them because I found them to be inferior to the K2s in my testing.
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samoset
Newly Enlightened
The XTAR looks good If I find I am using a lot of amp hours with my Aviator or if I get other devices using individual lithium rechargeable batteries.
For now, my Aviator is my hat light. I wear the hat when I want protection from sun, wind, cold, or rain, and my headlamp band doesn't hold very well. I don't use high much.
I see that the batterystore advertises a 1600 mah primary CR123 at $1.15. I could buy 35 for the cost of 2 rechargeable batteries and an XTAR charger. That would mean 56 hours on high or 2300 hours on low. Decisions...
The clip on the Aviator will hold it securely on the brim of my hat, lighting the ground 30 feet ahead. The clamp, shown in pieces in the first pic, will hold it on one side of the brim. The clamp has a ball swivel.
For now, my Aviator is my hat light. I wear the hat when I want protection from sun, wind, cold, or rain, and my headlamp band doesn't hold very well. I don't use high much.
I see that the batterystore advertises a 1600 mah primary CR123 at $1.15. I could buy 35 for the cost of 2 rechargeable batteries and an XTAR charger. That would mean 56 hours on high or 2300 hours on low. Decisions...
The clip on the Aviator will hold it securely on the brim of my hat, lighting the ground 30 feet ahead. The clamp, shown in pieces in the first pic, will hold it on one side of the brim. The clamp has a ball swivel.
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By the way, @samoset: I said goodbye to 123 primaries a long time ago except where long storage or low temps are involved (like 'car lights', etc.), but forgot to mention that one of the main reasons I like the LFPs, cost aside is this: Although they provide less 'run time' between changes (/charges), I always leave the house knowing how much run time I have in my pocket. I no longer leave with partially depleted primary cell(s) in my light which I may not know the 'state of charge' of, or therefore how much run time is left on it / them. That's at least as important as the cost in my thinking, so I thought I should mention it. They're a bit like the bird in the hand being better than the 2 in the bush!
M@elstrom
Flashlight Enthusiast
Reducing the Battery Burden on the Dismounted Soldier
How can innovative battery solutions improve the effectiveness of today’s dismounted soldier?
Just to add...I recently picked up a Surefire Aviator W/YG and tried it with a 16650 (in a two cell body) and the light output is exactly the same on low and high using the 16650 as it is using a SF123. So I don't see any danger using 3.7v cells since the output is the same so the emitter is not being overdriven.
Rossymeister
Enlightened
Hows this setup holding up long term?
