Cheap Chinese CR123A batteries on ebay any good?

[cybersoga]

Hi there, are the cheap chinese CR123A batteries on ebay any good (the white ones with names such as great power and WF)?

 

[TooManyGizmos]

They may be *old stock* and may vary a lot in voltage the day you get them.

Most veterans on here would not buy Lithium batteries on E-bay ....... IMHO.

 

[mdocod]

The ones you find on ebay under those various odd names will pretty consistently come in at anywhere from 20% to 75% less stored energy than a name brand cell. Remember, when you buy batteries, you are buying a chemical storage of energy. What's important is not HOW MANY cells you can get for your dollar, but how many watt-hours you can get for your dollar. MORE cells does not translate to more energy on tap.

More importantly: Cheap chinese CR123s have a much higher rate of exploding than USA made CR123s. Consistency from cell to cell is generally poor, which increases the risk of explosion as mismatched cells are the most likely condition to lead to reverse charging which leads to very hot metal fires.

---

If you are looking for the most cell for the dollar, it's pretty hard to beat the batterystation brand cell as they are believed to be by most folks "in-the-know" to be the same cell under a different wrapper as a Panasonic, SureFire, Ray-O-Vac, Streamlight.

You can get them for a little over $1 each if you order 50 at a time. All things taken into consideration, like the actual amount of stored energy you will be buying per dollar, combined with the safety of them being made in a quality controlled environment, it's very hard to argue with that price.

 

[buickid]

Don't do it! Exploding batteries are no fun. Listen to mdocod, he speaks the truth.

 

[michiganstud]

Consistency from cell to cell is generally poor, which increases the risk of explosion as mismatched cells are the most likely condition to lead to reverse charging which leads to very hot metal fires.

I've never heard of this yet. What is reverse charging?? Do you get this from protected cells?

 

[cybersoga]

I've never heard of this yet. What is reverse charging?? Do you get this from protected cells?

Reverse Charging - I think it means that when you use two or more batteries together and they are not equal power, the battery with more power will try charging up the battery with less power until equilibrium has been reached.

 

[325addict]

IF you ever want to try those el-cheapo's (you better don't) then ONLY use them in single-cell lights! Here chances are relatively small (though not impossible) that an empty cell will violently vent....
Best use them in single-cell LED lights only. An incan-light like the E1E can suck that cell totally dead, a LED-driver can't.

Like mdocod said, you'd better buy reputable brand batteries. They're safer. Period.


Timmo.

 

[Black Rose]

I've never heard of this yet. What is reverse charging?? Do you get this from protected cells?

I've only read about it happening with CR123A primary cells.

I suppose it might be possible that it could happen with protected cells.

mdocod or SilverFox would have better info on that (I'm a Li-Ion noob).

 

[cave dave]

Besides the danger of buring down your house. One of the big things I've noticed is shelf life. Top quality brands have a much longer shelf life. The Chinese brands can loose half their power or more in a year. This is caused by poor quality materials. Search CPF for "passivation layer" for more info.

Ra Clicky Runtimes:

New Blue label Batter Station Brand: 82min
5 yr old Surefire Brand: 73min
2 yr old High quality Chinese cell: 43 min

I had some low quality 1 yr old Chinese Cr2's that wouldn't even run my Titan in highest mode. I imagine the CR123a's aren't any better.

 

[mdocod]

I've never heard of this yet. What is reverse charging?? Do you get this from protected cells?

When colliding with the universe of batteries that we discuss as they pertain to flashlights, it's easy to get mixed up about what batteries do and have what features.

Protection circuits are found on *some* rechargeable lithium cobalt cells, but not on primary CR123 cells. In the case of rechargeable LiCo cells with protection circuits, yes, the protection would prevent a reverse charged cell as it would have severed the circuit long before the cell were drained enough to start being reverse charged.

In the case of a CR123, there are no active electronics monitoring cell voltage or anything like that. Most contain a thermal protection that severs the electrical connection if a cell heats up too much, however, these devices seem to be less useful than one might hope as generally by the time they "kick in" it's too late, the cell is already in thermal runaway.

-----

A reverse charge condition is what happens when more than 1 cell is in series in a circuit, and one of the cells goes completely dead (0V) but the circuit is left active, and the other *good* cell/s is still delivering current through the circuit. In a series circuit the cells are all back to back positive to negative, positive to negative, etc. So when a cell goes 0V, it's no long contributing any voltage to the power supply side of the circuit, but rather, playing a role as a resistive contact between cells. Because of the cell arrangement, and the flow of electrons, the cell begins to have in effect, and reverse voltage charge applied. The cell chemistry is not very tolerant to this abuse and can begin to overheat. The reverse charged cell will generally have enough chemical potential in heating up to get the still-charged cell/s in the circuit into thermal runaway.

When it happens inside an aluminum tube it's sort of like a grenade....

 

[Illum]

Two things you should never [I say again, NEVER] buy for the cheapest price available: Lithium Batteries and condoms

reputable manufacturers such as AW integrates protection circuits on LiCoO2 cells such as rechargeable Li-ions for over charge/discharge protection. As for LiMnO2 lithium primaries [aka CR123as], a more passive protection is used. Its called a PTC [positive temperature coefficient] disk that increases resistance dramatically when the cell heats up, either through storage temperatures or high rate of discharge [high current draw from load] to prevent potential venting [or thermo runaway] for the cell in use.

In addition to Mdocod's overview, reverse charging may also occur when there are multiple cells [or series of cells] are wired in parallel. if bank1 of cells have a lower voltage than the other bank2, then bank2 will reverse charge bank1 even if there is no load applied to the banks as a whole. Such is the case with the recent TK40 thread.

If you MUST buy cells on ebay either for shipping limitations or whatever, get yourself a ZTS pulse load battery tester at the very minimum [available from lighthound here] as it will indicate what cells are usable and what isn't. You should NEVER attempt to use two cells with different remaining capacity in the same light as this may warrant a potential hazard.

Be advised also that some cells will not register on the ZTS at all, while some [or majority] may dance around in terms of remaining capacity indicators when tested repeatedly, leave those to be used with single cell lights. if a cell shows the same result after being tested for 2-3 times, I'd use that to rate the cell.

Also be advised that LiMnO2 cells have a bad habit of falling asleep over long term storage, so give cells a little exercise with a moderate load before you test them.

 

[michiganstud]

When colliding with the universe of batteries that we discuss as they pertain to flashlights, it's easy to get mixed up about what batteries do and have what features.

Two things you should never [I say again, NEVER] buy for the cheapest price available: Lithium Batteries and condoms

Both great explanations!! Thanks much!

I have Solarforce protected cells. Anyone know if these are good cells?

 

[john9483]

Two things you should never [I say again, NEVER] buy for the cheapest price available: Lithium Batteries and condoms

What about NiMh batteries? They are offered for very attractive prices on EBAY. I wouldn't mind spending the ridiculous few dollars to try them out, but I wouldn't try them even for free if they are of the exploding type...

Do NiMh batteries have any known tendency to explode or catch fire when charged or used?

Thanks,
John

 

[shadowjk]

Internal short in nimh battery will cause it to heat up, hiss and vent, but not with flame. The heat might be enough to melt plastic (such as your charger). Very rare though.

What's more likely is that these nimh on ebay for "attractive prices" are extremely crap. You never know what you'll get.

 

[john9483]

Internal short in nimh battery will cause it to heat up, hiss and vent, but not with flame. The heat might be enough to melt plastic (such as your charger). Very rare though.

What's more likely is that these nimh on ebay for "attractive prices" are extremely crap. You never know what you'll get.

Thank you very much for your quick and informative answer, shadowjk. I agree that they will likely be crap. I even sent a few questions to those Hong Kong sellers and received NO ANSWER whatsoever...

However, my experience with one particular NiMh brand name (Rayovac) is HORRIBLE. What have I got to loose by trying out those cheap chinese imitations?

I could never go wrong with Duracell or Energizer but at the moment I am at a point where I need to save every penny, so I am looking at less expensive alternatives.

Thanks,
John

 

[mdocod]

Hi John9483,

with NIMH cells, as it would turn out, some of the worst cells ever made were Energizer 2500s (AA size).. They would develop self-discharge rates so fast in just a few dozen cycles that they were completely un-usable. So name brands don't really guarantee good results here.

Cheap off-brand ebay cells will have some or more likely, MANY issues that will turn you off from trying to use them pretty quickly. They are known for being massively over-rated in capacity, but that's not really the worst problem. The worst issue is that they are terribly inconsistent from cell to cell in true capacity, which results in cells being over-discharged and potentially reverse charged in some series configurations.

There are cells out there that are surprisingly cheap that aren't bad... I would suggest checking out the Titanium 2000mAH cells from batteryjunction.com. At $1.25 each they probably won't be bad. Test results show these to be right up there with their label capacity and of reasonable quality.

Spending some more on low-self-discharge NIMH cells is actually the best deal in the long run because you will likely get more years of service out of them, enough to totally offset the higher initial investment. I would rather have a $3 Sanyo eneloop than a $1 Tenergy any day.

 

[metlarules]

Hi John9483,

with NIMH cells, as it would turn out, some of the worst cells ever made were Energizer 2500s (AA size).. They would develop self-discharge rates so fast in just a few dozen cycles that they were completely un-usable. So name brands don't really guarantee good results here.

Cheap off-brand ebay cells will have some or more likely, MANY issues that will turn you off from trying to use them pretty quickly. They are known for being massively over-rated in capacity, but that's not really the worst problem. The worst issue is that they are terribly inconsistent from cell to cell in true capacity, which results in cells being over-discharged and potentially reverse charged in some series configurations.

There are cells out there that are surprisingly cheap that aren't bad... I would suggest checking out the Titanium 2000mAH cells from batteryjunction.com. At $1.25 each they probably won't be bad. Test results show these to be right up there with their label capacity and of reasonable quality.

Spending some more on low-self-discharge NIMH cells is actually the best deal in the long run because you will likely get more years of service out of them, enough to totally offset the higher initial investment. I would rather have a $3 Sanyo eneloop than a $1 Tenergy any day.

I agree. Eneloops are probably the least expensive batteries in the long run.

 

[Niconical]

If you are looking for the most cell for the dollar, it's pretty hard to beat the batterystation brand cell....

+1 on that, especially with the CPF special, 50 CR123A shipped in the USA for $60

 

[old4570]

I have Solarforce protected cells. Anyone know if these are good cells?

As good as any ... [ Solarforce ]

Sure would be nice if some one actually tested the bad batteries , cos the ones I got aint so bad .

GTL 16340 3.7v [ I want to try these , as they seem to have a Manufacture date on them ]

 

[Illum]

Hi John9483,

with NIMH cells, as it would turn out, some of the worst cells ever made were Energizer 2500s (AA size).. They would develop self-discharge rates so fast in just a few dozen cycles that they were completely un-usable. So name brands don't really guarantee good results here.

really? I thought Sanyo 2700s was the worst cell ever made

Seld discharge comes under the pithfalls of inconsistant cell chemistry...and somehow the cell internals are shorting in the atomic level not unlike closed circuit discharge with an external load applied. This will drain a cells capacity of 10-60% per month depending on how bad the cell is. While the said chemical reaction is not well understood, cell production origin and temperature appears to be two main factors.

Don't think of Energizer or Duracell as purely American companies but instead think of the global ecconomy. Parts are designed here but may be produced offshore, then branded/assembled here

Internal short in nimh battery will cause it to heat up, hiss and vent, but not with flame. The heat might be enough to melt plastic (such as your charger). Very rare though.

Internal short may be caused by frontal/lateral impact that causes the envelope/canister/cylinder seal to fail and induce either a chemical reaction with the outside environment or others. I have not seen or heard of a NiMH internally short out just sitting there, only if its accidentally dropped, kicked, ranover, or twacked on the head with a ball peen hammer...

Its important to know that a NiMH may vent hydrogen during charge/discharge cycles [Which jams certain flashlights shut from the inside due to atmospheric pressure, like arc/fenix lights as referenced by past threads] and its not a hazardous condition though its usually recommended that the cell be replaced.

Heat is an important element to consider. 5W of heat in a small area can give you 2nd degree burns or more...resistor wise. A pair of freshly charged Eneloop LSD NiMH AAs can comfortaly give 10A when shorted by an external jumper... 10A x 1.5(2) = 30W...which is equivalent to my weller's solder iron on high. So If you plan to stock up NiMHs, don't use a metal case to store them in. And where you do store them at, make sure you have a fire extinguisher nearby. Not that it will happen anytime soon, but theres simply too much counterfeit stuff out there to shrug it off.