Confision through ignorance.PLEASE HELP

[Kentuckian]

I know it's tough helping out a newbie that doesn't know crap but I really could use all the help I can get. I was informed this is THE place for answers. Please be patient with me. I really need the help.

The more I think I learn the more I don't know what to do.
Here is my needs.

1. I am going to mount a powerful light on my rifle. I need it to be able to illuminate a person out to 200-250 feet well enough to determine wether it's a lost person carrying a stick or a bad guy with a gun.
I have decided on Wolf Eyes lights. So far I like the 9DX(170 lumen Cree LED,180 min run time, batteries) and the M90 Rattlesnake( w/HO-9L bulb 380 lumen incan, 60 min run time, rechargeable).
Even though there is a large difference between the two in Lumens would they both do the job?

2.I need a powerful handheld. I need it to be effective indoors and out doors to at least 100-150 feet. Again I'm going to stick with Wolf Eyes for this. First I'm looking at the 6A Sniper(150 lumen w/HO-4 D-26 lamp, 60 min runtime, rechargable) and the 6AX Sniper(170 lumens Cree LED, 80 min run time, batteries). Again would they both do the job required?

My budget is very tight and I need to make the best decision I can. I need alot of throw but not at the cost of no flood/spill.
I've considered the rechargables due to low cost of operation. How long will one hold it's charge sitting unused?
What if the power is out for a long period? These are some of my concerns.

As for the weapon light being able to identify people and objects at the longer distances is critical. As for the hand held the indoor requirements, it will be for large buildings and a Perimeter light. For house hold work I have a Dorcy Metal Gear 45 lumen LED that I'm very happy with. It has doubled as a weapon light on my shotgun for nearly a year now and has held up great( it only lights up a target well enough for posative identification out to 60-70 feet).

There is also one other option I've considered for a hand held light. I have an old 2 D cell Maglight that I've considered getting the Malkoff conversion for(150 lumens,3 hour run time and a focusable head). I may get A WE for hand held and the Malkoff for my Maglight come to think of it. This forum is turning me into a junkie already!

I would really appriciate all the help I can get. I've nowhere else to turn for these answers.

 

[DM51]

You have done some research and I think you are on the right track. For the weapon light, I would recommend a Wolf Eyes 9-series Raider (D26 bezel), 2 x 18500 protected cells (Wolf Eyes LRB-150A) and a Lumens Factory D26 EO-9 lamp assembly (380 lm). If you want really serious power, get a WE M90 Rattlesnake with short 16mm extender tube, 3 x 18500s and a LF D36 EO-13 LA (700 lm) – but this is quite a lot bigger and may be unwieldy on your rifle. The Cree drop-in will not be powerful enough for what you want, although it may well be the answer for your second light - read on…

For the handheld second light I like your 2 options for the 6-series Sniper – it depends on whether you want a LED light or an incan. The WE D26 3.7-6v 170 lm Cree drop-in will give you 110 mins on 1 x 18650, or you can run the same set-up on 2 x CR123A primaries (You can't use 2 primaries with the EO-4 option). Another possibility for the Sniper, for maximum possible power from it, would be a LF HO-9 with 2 x R123s, which will give you ~200 lm but only for 22 mins. The 170 lm Cree drop-in is probably the best bet for its run-time and versatility, unless you don't like LEDs.

As to self-discharge, you don't need to worry too much with Li-Ions – unlike NiMH cells they hold their charge pretty well for some months, although you should not store them for extended periods fully charged.

If your power is out and you can't recharge, the beauty of the WE 9-series on the EO-9 configuration above is that you can talke out the 2 x 18500s and put in 3 x CR123A primaries and the light will work perfectly. As already mentioned, this is also possible with the 6-series Sniper, but only if you are using the WE D26 3.7-6v Cree 170 lm LED drop-in – you can run it on 1 x 18650 Li-Ion or 2 x CR123A primaries.

 

[Kentuckian]

Ok. According to the WE site I can get Rattlesnake recharchable w/HO9-L 380 lumen buld option and run off my recharchable batteries or 123's. That's cool and I can live with the shorter run time of the incan bulbs(unless the LED version will meet my 200-250 foot needs for throw).

As for the recharchable 6 series Sniper I'm not seeing a 170 lumen cree option.

Also you didn't mention the Malkoff. Are they ok?

 

[PhantomPhoton]

Malkoff are great, BUT...
like the mods and lights of a couple others here on CPF you have to actually be able to get one.

I have no experience with #1 so I cannot recommend anything. For #2 I have very little experience with Wolf Eyes, though they are generally well liked around these parts. Their 170 lumen Cree sounds great but they're new and untested over time so I wouldn't bet my life (or someone else's) on any brand new product that hasn't had thorough real world testing.

In my opinion outdoors (or a really big indoors place too) lights that throw aren't as effective at lighting up everything in front of you for a close-in indoors situation. This is one of the classic dilemmas that you find here on CPF. Spill vs Throw. Spill is great for indoors where you need to see the whole room. Throw is great when you need to light up something far off. But finding a light that does both well is tricky. And being on a tight budget makes it that much more difficult IMO.

The new Seoul and Cree based lights are getting closer to this goal. There are some lights that have a great hotspot with generally nice transition to a bright spill. But I still haven't found one that satisfies my personal expectations on this just yet.
Whether or not the Wolf Eyes 170 emitter lumen falls into this category I'm not sure. The Cree drop-in that I have for my Surefire 6P is plenty bright in throw but has a more narrow hotspot than I would like. Spill is not bad but definitely not great either. How this DealExtreme drop-in differs from the Wolf Eyes in beam pattern I cannot say.

I'm personally awaiting a SSC dropin to see if I can get a fatter hotspot and brighter spill. I also am looking forward to the new Surefire TIR optics to see how well they do with Crees. THe new NovaTacs might do better with the SSC emitters but again its a bit pricey to some and its still over a month off. A final LED optino off the tiop of my head is a multi-emitter setup. These generally put out plenty of light in spill and throw from the beamshots I've seen, but I haven't yet had the pleasure of playing with one. Mostly because they're expensive and hard to find.

ALl in all it doesn't seem like I'm much help, sorry. :sigh:

 

[Kentuckian]

I'm haing a bit of confusion. I just about had my heart set on the WE recharchable Rattlesnake with the HO-9L High Output 9V Lamp(380 lumen) so I would have the option of using the 3.7V Rechargeable Batteries or 123's. The problem that Glen pointed out in another thread is that the HO-9L High Output 9V Lamp is rated to use the 23.7's or three 123's and the Rattlesnake holds four 123's. Now I don't know what to do all over again! :shakehead

 

[DM51]

I'm haing a bit of confusion. I just about had my heart set on the WE recharchable Rattlesnake with the HO-9L High Output 9V Lamp(380 lumen) so I would have the option of using the

3.7V Rechargeable Batteries or 123's. The problem that Glen pointed out in another thread is that the HO-9L High Output 9V Lamp is rated to use the 23.7's or three 123's and the Rattlesnake holds four 123's. Now I don't know what to do all over again!

Please re-read my post. The EO-13 in the Rattlesnake with the short extension tube will run with 3 x 18500 rechargeables and give you a massive amount of light. It is a better option for you than the HO-9 - it has twice the output!

You won't be able to interchange primaries and rechargeables in the Rattlesnake unless you also change lamp assemblies etc too – the length of the body is wrong for this, as it is a "4-cell" (13.3cm) light (15cm if you put on the short extender to fit 3 x 18500s).

You CAN however interchange 2 x 18500 rechargeables with 3 x CR123A primaries in the WE 9-series Sniper with a 9v LA, as this is a 10cm-body light. With an EO-9 LA, this is a very good option for you as it is versatile, less cumbersome as a weapon light and powerful enough (not as powerful as the Rattlesnake, but OK for your purpose).

The Cree drop-in will NOT be adequate for the weapon light - it has only about 1/4 the output of the EO-13 and will not give you adequate target definition at the distance you require. It will however do fine for your smaller backup handheld light.

I assume from your handle you are based in the USA, so I suggest you contact Mike(AT)PTS and discuss this with him. He is very helpful and can tailor the package as I have outlined – you don't have to buy a set package as per his website.

EDIT: The quote seems to have split in 2 - not sure why this keeps happening. Not intentional here.

 

[Kentuckian]

I believe I've got it figured out. Here we go. This will be my shopping list to save up for.

1.M90 Rattlesnake Rechargeable w/Sr-9l 320 lumen lamp as my primary weapon light.

2. M90X Rattlesnake 300 lumen light an a dozen reloads(CR123's) for it(my buddy in the local PD can get them for me for a buck each). Back up weapon mount and hand held purposes.

3.9DX (Cree P4 HO) Raider with a dozen reloads for it plus four LRB 150A recharchable batteries(two extras) and a couple brass spacers to charge them on the M90's charger! For my hand held uses.

Grand total $516 + S&H. Expensive yes but I'll have lights for all occasions and major versatility. I'll have back-ups for my back-ups. Not to mention some very powerful lights and some cool new toys!

I believe 300-320 lumens will serve my weapon mount needs as good as need be and a 170 lumen Cree led will definitely suffice for my general needs. I get caught up in numbers. I mean right now I'm used to using as 45 lumen LED light for everything! All of a sudden I feel an addiction coming on.

 

[KeeperSD]

I believe I've got it figured out. Here we go. This will be my shopping list to save up for.

1.M90 Rattlesnake Rechargeable w/Sr-9l 320 lumen lamp as my primary weapon light.

2. M90X Rattlesnake 300 lumen light an a dozen reloads(CR123's) for it(my buddy in the local PD can get them for me for a buck each). Back up weapon mount and hand held purposes.

3.9DX (Cree P4 HO) Raider with a dozen reloads for it plus four LRB 150A recharchable batteries(two extras) and a couple brass spacers to charge them on the M90's charger! For my hand held uses.

Grand total $516 + S&H. Expensive yes but I'll have lights for all occasions and major versatility. I'll have back-ups for my back-ups. Not to mention some very powerful lights and some cool new toys!

I believe 300-320 lumens will serve my weapon mount needs as good as need be and a 170 lumen Cree led will definitely suffice for my general needs. I get caught up in numbers. I mean right now I'm used to using as 45 lumen LED light for everything! All of a sudden I feel an addiction coming on.

not trying to confuse the matter further but i think you might have sold yourself short and cost yourself more than needed.

Unless you particularly want extra long runtime in your lights then i think you have chosen lights that are bigger than necessary.

why not look at the Rattlesnake 13V with EO13, if you are going to buy a rattlesnake you might as well get the most output from it available. Runs on rechargeables at 700 lumens.

Then instead of another Rattlesnake, A Raider with EO9, running either 2 x LRB 150's or primaries, great output at 380 lumens which is more than you were looking at with the Rattelsnake you were talking about, only thing it would lose out in slightly is the throw since it is a little smaller in the bezel.

Both of the above lights would make nice weapon lights, nice and bright.

And third either a Sniper with a 170lumen crop in or a Defender II, beauty of Defender II offers both high and low output, great versatility, both of these can run either a LRB 168 or primaries. No real need to run the Cree in a Raider body as it offers little benefit over the Sniper/Defender, and comes in a smaller package (cheaper too).

I did some rough figures and you could get the above lights with all the encessary bits for around the $400 mark , actually a little less. As you requested both the second and third light could still allow you to use primaries too. I have pics of the last two if you are interested, unfortunately not the first one. (not until after my wedding anyway )

 

[DM51]

not trying to confuse the matter further but i think you might have sold yourself short and cost yourself more than needed.

Unless you particularly want extra long runtime in your lights then i think you have chosen lights that are bigger than necessary.

why not look at the Rattlesnake 13V with EO13, if you are going to buy a rattlesnake you might as well get the most output from it available. Runs on rechargeables at 700 lumens.

Then instead of another Rattlesnake, A Raider with EO9, running either 2 x LRB 150's or primaries, great output at 380 lumens which is more than you were looking at with the Rattelsnake you were talking about, only thing it would lose out in slightly is the throw since it is a little smaller in the bezel.

Both of the above lights would make nice weapon lights, nice and bright.

And third either a Sniper with a 170lumen crop in or a Defender II, beauty of Defender II offers both high and low output, great versatility, both of these can run either a LRB 168 or primaries. No real need to run the Cree in a Raider body as it offers little benefit over the Sniper/Defender, and comes in a smaller package (cheaper too).

I did some rough figures and you could get the above lights with all the encessary bits for around the $400 mark , actually a little less. As you requested both the second and third light could still allow you to use primaries too. I have pics of the last two if you are interested, unfortunately not the first one. (not until after my wedding anyway )

That's almost exactly what I suggested to him! Great minds etc...

Kentuckian, I think you may be hung up on the X / no X option for the Rattlesnake. The M90 is exactly the same light as the M90X - all it means is Mike has put a couple of 18650 rechargeables into it, changed the LA and added a WE charger to the package. You don't have to specify the model – you can pick and mix. All I'm saying (and KeeperSD is too) is use 3 x rechargeables and the brighter LA, not 2 and the lower-power LA. I suggest the short body extension with 3 x 18500s instead of the long extension and 3 x 18650s.

 

[KeeperSD]

So you did i got hung up on the battery listings in your post i ignored the actual suggestions that you made

Kentuckian
Here is a link to the Cree HO Sniper too, which you mentioned earlier you were having difficulty finding http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-99-103-113-6314

I completely agree with DM51 on these lights, i think they offer you the best versatility and cost that you will find. You will have three different size lights, one for every occasion and all with great outputs and reasonable runtimes and you will not be disappointed in any of them.

Can i just ask DM why you suggest the shorter extension, not disagreeing as i have no experience with the Rattlesnake, just curious.

 

[DM51]

Can i just ask DM why you suggest the shorter extension, not disagreeing as i have no experience with the Rattlesnake, just curious.

It's so you can use 3 x 18500 / LRB-150. You need the extra half-cell length to fit them in. You can use the long (2-cell) extension if you want to run 3 x 18650 / LRB-168, but this makes the light too long IMO.

EDIT: By "cell", I mean cell 34mm long, ie CR123A. The M90 is a 4-cell light, to take 4 x CR123As = 134mm total length. However 3 x 18500 = 150mm total length, so you need the half-cell (~16mm) extension.

2 x 18650 will fit the M90 body without an extension, as 2 x 18650 = the same total length as 4 x 123s, but to run the EO-13 you need 3 Li-Ions so if they are to be 18650s you need the long extension. I prefer the shorter option (I use it myself).

 

[powernoodle]

a powerful light on my rifle . . . to determine whether it's a lost person carrying a stick or a bad guy with a gun.

One thing to consider is that it is better to use a hand-light to ascertain a threat (good guy vs. bad guy) as oppsed to a rifle-mounted light. This is so you do not have point your rifle at a good guy, which as you know is something you really want to avoid. JMO.

cheers

 

[Kentuckian]

My apologies fellas I'm kind of a slow learner. All I know about flashlights it they take batteries and one end lights up.:shakehead
The reason I chose the lights that I did was for a good balance between adequate run times and the versatility of being able to run them whether there is power to charge batteries or not. The reason for the two Rattlesnakes is the similar Lumen ratings and they should have the same lighting effects so they share commonality when in usage.

I'm not saying I'm right and you guys are wrong. I'm just trying to explain the logic I was using. I'm not trying to be aggravating as in not listening but I understand only a little of what I'm being told. That's no fault of any of you fellas I just don't know much.

I'm satisfied with the output numbers of the lights I've chosen and the run times. Now if I'm still folly in my thinking by all means I'm still willing to listen. You might need to explain things like your talking to a child though.

 

[BB]

Probably you should just buy one light (maybe a bit on the cheap side) and see what you like and don't like about it. Much of the above is based on personal preferences for the particular author's experiences. Not that they are necessarily right or wrong--but they are not you.

Second, have you take a weapons and lights course of some type? It is possible your choice of light(s) may change based on further training and experiences.

It sounds to me light you may have a ranch, farm, or something similar where a rifle can be safely fired without worrying (too much) about the backstop.

I am certainly not a weapons and lights guy... But from years as a kid watching a few square miles of hills and pastures in the midst of a major metropolitan area--"going dark" and listening was about 1,000% better in trying to find and identify trespassers (dirt bikers, kids partying, etc.).

One guy that did much of the patrolling went dark with a two wheel drive p/u and he would surprise anyone out there. Running with lights--people can see you miles off. And, from looking at the issue from the other side--it was very easy to identify when we were spotted or not--just look at the shadows from the light(s).

If you are shining your lights in a dangerous environment--you now become the target. And if you need the weapons, I assume that is because the bad guy(s) may have weapons too (as good or better is frequently seen out here with the druggies/smugglers/gang bangers/etc.).

Decades ago, my Dad had friends whose farm was (it appeared) being used by light planes to deliver drugs at night. It was a difficult choice for them on how to approach the problem (police/sheriffs are not close, little road access, etc.).

I am sure that you know the issues better than I--but I would suggest avoiding the trap of bigger and bigger lights.

It is a big leap in expense--but some sort of night vision/thermal imaging might be in your future (and to keep yourself from being a target).

-Bill

 

[KeeperSD]

DM51, wouldn't the benefit of using 18650's over 18500's outweigh the extra length of the light? The Rattlesnake isn't exactly pocketable anyway so wouldn't of thought the extra length would be a huge drama?

No need to apologise Kentuckian, your light choices are valid as they are your preference and at the end of the day something that you will own and use not us. I was just offering an alternative that would save you some dollars, give you the same if not better output and still meet all the criteria you outlined (eg being able to run them in power outages and decent runtimes).

To me, and of course this is just my opinion, you have chosen lights that are going to cost you more than necessary, don't offer the best value for money and are probably a little larger than needed as well. The Rattlesnake M90X offers 300lumens, but has to be used with primaries, whereas the Raider with an EO9, offers 380lumens and can be used with either rechargeable 18500's or primaries and is of course cheaper. The Raider with a Cree crop in has no benefit, except a longer runtime, but comes at a greater cost than the Sniper/Defender with a crop in, both can be used with primaries (except of course the Sniper/Defender only takes 2 compared to 3 for the Raider) and rechargeables and offer the same output. The Sniper/Defender still offers 110min reg output, then another 30min unreg. Finally the Rattlesnake without the extender offers 200 lumen compared to a possible 700 lumen at a similar cost.

As i said at the start, ultimately it is your money and your choice but just don't want to see you spending more money than needed, there are plently of other lights to spend that on

EDIT - Just looking at the Rattlesnakes, and someone please correct me if i am wrong, but the M90 with 200 lumen you talk of is only a 9V lamp assembly which means you will not be able to use primaries in this light if the power is out. Leaving only one of your choices, being the Raider, to use either primaries or rechargeables.

 

[Kentuckian]

Keeper: I believe I get what your saying now.

BB: I have had weapons training and come to think of it we only used 65 lumen SF lights(can't remember what model) and I was impressed. Also I've been thinking and my "needs" have been unrealistic.

I have a Dorcy metal gear 45 lumen LED that will light up a person well enough at 100ft(about 33yards) for ID'ing(my daughter and I just tested this out). The Wolf Eyes 9DAX (Cree P4 HO) Raider Should give doulble that (surely at least 150 feet/50yds). It would probably be enough but I am going to use the incan for my primary weapon light. Like I said I get caught up in the numbers!

So it would be more like this:
FOR MY GUN MOUNT
1. 9D Raider is rechargeable with turbo bezel for my gun. (I don't know what I was thinking)

AND
HAND HELD AND BACCK UP WEAPON LIGHT
2.9DAX (Cree P4 HO) Raider is capable of running (2) LRB150A Li-ion battery or 3 CR123A Lithium batteries (a couple LRB150A Li-ion's to use in the charger that comes with the first Raider!).

All that plus four extra LRB150A's comes up to $254 + S&H.

I don't need 300+ lumens for a weapon light. I realize that now. If I were to run up on a close range scenario the reflection of my own light might give me problems.

How does this sound Keeper? A little more realistic maybe?
I sure appriciate all the time you guy's are taking to help me. I'm a big firearms enthusiest asn I'm on a couple forums dedicated to such si I understand how it is dealing with the new guy and his lack of knowledge.

 

[BB]

I notice that a weapons cable/switch is available with the 9D... Will the 9D with filament bulb withstand your recoil and handling (rack in jeep?).

Someone posted here a day or so ago that SureFire was going to 100% LED on all new weapons lights (ugh... Search does not work for me--hope I remembered that correctly) If you are trying to do this right--I am not sure that I would want to trust a filament bulb now that the new LEDs and good bodies are available.

Carrying a 9D (or other filament light as backup for better recognition) is probably still a good idea. SureFire has the shock mounted series for weapons lights (Filament) too.

-Bill

Never mind--I see that you are typing about the Cree LED version...

 

[Kentuckian]

This is from the Raiders(incan light) description:
"It comes with a shock resistant bulb with good impact resistance for weapons mounting or a very durable personal carry flashlight".

I like the color and depth better that you get from an incan over the LED out doors. I must say though that I' have considered the Raider with Cree LED as my weapon mount as well, considering it's still about 3.5 times brighter than my current light and as I said above it works good to 100 feet. Mainly for the runtime though. If I got two of them I would need to buy some rechargeables (4-LRB150A Li-ion) and a charger to have the dual battery use but that's not so bad.

Oh and I wont need the cable with the pressure pad. It will be mounted like this:

On one of these stocks(soon)

So I will be able to operate the pressure cap with my thumb quite easily.

by BB: It sounds to me light you may have a ranch, farm, or something similar where a rifle can be safely fired without worrying (too much) about the backstop."

You could say I'm a professional coyote/deer hit man.:naughty:
I help farmers and rancher types in the county I live in dealing with deer damaging thier crops and coyotes' killing their livestock. I also do patrols a couple night a week for a few land owners on several large wooded areas to try to keep people from cooking meth on thier property. I don't try to intervine just spot them and call the police. My gun is merely to defend myself in case the meth heads try to attack me.

 

[Gene43]

Thats cool. I need you around here. The whole reason I got interested in building lights was because of the coyotes eating my chickens.

Gene Malkoff

 

[Kentuckian]

Thats cool. I need you around here. The whole reason I got interested in building lights was because of the coyotes eating my chickens.

Gene Malkoff

Where bouts are you?