CPF Custom Light Design

[Gunner12]

Number 9 and 10 might be hard.

As for focusing, I'm thinking an optic(similar to LedLenser), or a lens.
I also have an idea for a UI that I can send or post here.

 

[Barbarin]

I'd like to create a design based on a compendium of knowledge of CPF members. And I hope people can get excited about this and would freely express their ideas however "out there" they may seem. I strongly believe that some of the best ideas in the world are not expressed.

Agree with you, the more we talk the better it comes.

I hope this is coming out in the proper location/thread. I did not want to post in Custom and Modified because most of that (like most CPF) is geared toward flashlights, and this idea is for a multi-purpose LED light.... which started with this wish list to which I added #11 today.

I'm going to be the Devil's advocate. What is the use of this light?? Who is its user? How much is he/she ready to pay?

As you can see there is not a unique answer for your questions, it will pend on many factors. So... is it possible to make 1 flashlight perfect for X users with Y purposes and N budgets? From a philosophical point of view, no.

But let's face the requirements.

1) Non-proprietary design (meaning its freely shared)

No problem. Unless there is some money involved in form of investing. If anybody invest in let's say a PCB for a LED driver, he will want for sure a payback, at least. If not you are going to need a minimun mass of people ready to pay in advance.

2) Lumen range of 500-1500 -- Higher is better

This will lead to multichip, multiled of heavy overdriven area. But doable, of course.

3) Heat sinking designed into housing/mount configuration

Many lights are already that way.

4) Focusable (is this even possible?)

Yes, it is. We even have a patent pending on this, but no problem at all if you want to use it for non profit purposes. I can give you details.

5) Adaptable for bike, headlamp or hand

Doable, but very hardly if you are not thinking about accessoires, or a modular design... hand, bike and head have their own needs in terms of output and beam pattern.

6) Electronics capable of adjusting for conditions

Easy to do, but it is going to need some invest.

7) Dimming

As 6)

8) Readily available parts

Not so easy if you look or something new... it is going to take some time to find everything you need.

9) Don't have to take out a second mortgage to do it

IMHO at least 300 €/pc to make something similar to waht you propose. And that does not include any initializing costs, or prototypes.

10) Easily built once parts are acquired

Doable, but you need to approach this form the point of view of a zero skilld modder. If not you are closing too much your target.

11) Employ drop-in (or quick change) components

No prob on this.

I'm hoping that there could be an instructable guide. Question: Would this "product" necessarily need to be built or prototyped to know it will work?

YES, yes and YES. Prototypes are the only way to avoid multipliying your first mistakes x 1000.

Maybe the result is a set of non-technical drawings with links to various components that can be order or acquired at a store? Can it be known in advance to work because its parts are compatible, without actually building it?

Probably according to this would be to use SF compatible parts. Make a compatible body or set of pieces that can be assembled into a body, designed to use readily available parts... But you need to forget about focusing, or even the 500-1500 lm range. SF parts and light patterns are aimed to a tactical use, so not optimized for headlamp or bike use.

About question about No. 4 (focus-ability). I thought I saw an LED MagLite at Costco that is focusable, but I may have been assuming remembering how the conventional light. Is it possible to do have a focusable LED light without sophisticated optics?

What kind of focusing do you need? From 1º to 90º? Mayibe you are happy with 20-70º? If so you can do something using a mulichip. If you want narrower focusing you need multiple single chips leds, and that will lead to complex optics.

Is anyone interested in this or is this idea overly-ambitious? Will people want to be involved in something with no brand or profit involved (other than knowing one was a part of it)?

My point of view as a Devil's advocate, tells me that it is too much ambitious. And experience tells me that in some point you are going to need some extrenal help, and that means money. Is possible to find investors?

I think other than an occasional dispute over technical issues CPF forum seems filled with bright and creative people. Maybe an online project would be fun and interesting for many members... What do you think? And what about the list above? I wouldn't want to throw anything out based on assumptions though....

[

There are many projects running right now like what your propose, but they are less general and more dedicated to a use, as for example the carbide lamp replacement one. Maybe you should think what kind of flashlight you need for yiur personal use, and then try to find people with similar requirements, and perhaps will be able to make something.

Don't hate me because of my point of view, I don't want to discourage anyone... At the end it takes some time to write this and give you my advice. And if your will is strong enough this just will make it stronger

For more specifical questions let me know, you can do it here or in my subforum.

Javier

 

[LightTracker]

Javier, I don't mind you playing Devil's advocate at all. Its difficult to have project success without that, I think.... The exception is when people who take up that role never seem to break away from it long enough to propose a solution.

Your comment about the project being too ambitious and that it may necessitate external help... well, isn't CPF external help? And so too would a vendor be if their component is recommended? Also, there are already successful DIY LED lights done by one party, but I'm suggesting it may require multiple parties. (for a sum greater than its parts?)

Gunner12, by "UI" do you mean user interface? If so, or if not, please share.

Right now I'm only hoping to pare down (or add to) the list) so that it remains

a) doable
b) affordable
c) nice, something members would take pride in

Of course C doesn't matter much unless members participate, right? So far, I think the participation is great, there have been good points made by everyone. Could someone take a stab at revising the list to try and handle some of the conflicts on it?

Also, I appreciate the problems being pointed out, its an important part of learning.

Cheers!

 

[Scattergun]

@LightTracker

I totally agree with Barbarin, it will be tough to land this project without a more specified or userdirected approach. What you basically have done is to muster up a few handfuls of nice features for a light, and then asked everyone to chime in with their knowledge to design the light in theory.

Just putting all the cool things in a project seldom equals success... There are often more specialized lights out there, and people who want the best seldom go for generalized functionality.

The questions needing answers are:

-Who will be using the light?
-What will differ from other already existing lights?

As for the platform of modularity, I feel that SF already have an established standard, and the bigger lights for modding are essentially Mags C and D-size.

And I still think it is a very difficult task for an inexperienced modder to take on... To make the parts easier and more userfriendly will increase cost and the need for prefabrication. And if you need an experienced modder to make the major parts for the light (ie lightengine and other complex parts), then why bother going for a semicustom light? It will be as costly as a fully custom-made light.

 

[LightTracker]

@LightTracker, I totally agree with Barbarin, it will be tough to land this project without a more specified or userdirected approach. What you basically have done is to muster up a few handfuls of nice features for a light, and then asked everyone to chime in with their knowledge to design the light in theory.

Scattergun, I'm expressly asking for input on what the light should be in addition to how it should be done. I suggest that it could have more than one purpose. Does that make it general purpose? Maybe. But why couldn't the light itself be looked at as a module? Let it be attached to a head-strap or a handlebar or a handle?

-Who will be using the light?

Anyone.

-What will differ from other already existing lights?

It would be a CPF light, something members could take pride in for that reason.

As for the platform of modularity, I feel that SF already have an established standard, and the bigger lights for modding are essentially Mags C and D-size.

What can you say about applying the SF standard for this project? How would it change the list, for example? I agree, if necessary, to let go of the idea of modularity, esp. if its an added expense. But are you sure it is? Maybe focus-ability too is added expense?

I'm not saying exactly what this light is on purpose to try and be creative, or draw on the creativity of others, to think differently. Maybe it will become specific by that process, but maybe it won't.

Does this make some sense? I think it will begin to narrow down because of what you're saying, and I appreciate your input. Thanks...

Cheers!

 

[saabluster]

Scattergun, I'm expressly asking for input on what the light should be in addition to how it should be done. I suggest that it could have more than one purpose. Does that make it general purpose? Maybe. But why couldn't the light itself be looked at as a module? Let it be attached to a head-strap or a handlebar or a handle?



Anyone.



It would be a CPF light, something members could take pride in for that reason.



What can you say about applying the SF standard for this project? How would it change the list, for example? I agree, if necessary, to let go of the idea of modularity, esp. if its an added expense. But are you sure it is? Maybe focus-ability too is added expense?

I'm not saying exactly what this light is on purpose to try and be creative, or draw on the creativity of others, to think differently. Maybe it will become specific by that process, but maybe it won't.

Does this make some sense? I think it will begin to narrow down because of what you're saying, and I appreciate your input. Thanks...

Cheers!

First off we already have CPF lights. Look at all the modders that have started their businesses from CPF for CPF. These are CPF lights.

Yes you could make some type of module that could cross many different fields. The end result is a very compromised design that although it can do a lot of things ok can do none of them great. I do not believe this is the proper direction for the flashlight industry. Make lights that are specialized for their respective fields. The whole module idea is deeply flawed in my opinion.

Who is the light for? You tell us. Its your idea. Again you need to make a light with a narrow focus, design wise, to fit peoples needs. Try and make a light for everyone and every task and noone will want it(think the GM of flashlights). Now try and do all this where it is cheap to buy. Now you are further constricting the design envelope because we couldn't use the best materials in the design(ie copper) due to its expense.

There is more reasons that I could go into on why this will not work but I don't have the time to waste. Sorry but you just need to trust me on this one. If you want to try and get some kind of collaborative work done with a light of a specific variety it may be possible. But even that would be hard. Say one guy works on the head design and another guy works on the body while someone else deals with the pill/heat sinking issues. To coordinate the design would take forever. And sad to say but you have to consider that the people would need some kind of compensation for the massive amounts of time they would be putting into it. Its just the world we live in. Unless you want something designed really quickly(read badly) and with poor materials. Good design takes time. Great design takes a ton of time. You said you wanted a light that CPF could be proud of but that cannot happen if it was guided by the wish list.

 

[LightTracker]

saabluster,

I am not disappointed by your comments, but you have obviously missed the thrust of this. Look at #1 on the list, this project would be done by people who are in it for the fun, not to bolster a business interest or create overtime for their already probably cramped weekend.

Also, I'm sure there are CPF lights that are tied in with businesses, and maybe the components of homemade (DIY) or fully proprietary projects both benefit by those relationships. That's okay. But its not what I'm interested in doing. I'd like to support that and not work against it, its just not what I'm doing. Okay?

I'm suggesting doing this for fun.... more like this guy's copper DIY project as I linked to that in the lead-in. See Then again, maybe he works for Luxeon... How could you know for sure? As a lot of people in forums don't tell you who they're affiliated with.

Anyway, it does not need to be called a "CPF light". I didn't mean to ruffle the feathers of other folks who may be doing that. It doesn't need to be called anything at all, a no-brand suggestion is all it is anyway.

Also, I have volunteered to do (for cost) what is most likely to be the most important provision (if its required), a custom housing. I've been told there's a Amish community nearby who will do those fairly cheaply if you give them a pattern.

You are obviously taking this project as something I didn't ever intend. I agree it would be time wasting to try and solve every issue in an instant. I'm inclined to wait and see what's offered in the future while continuing to brainstorm and discuss it though.

I think the field is wide open and a lot of what may seem impractical right now will soon not be. I'm willing to watch and wait and discuss it. Certainly, if this wastes your time, don't waste it on me or this. You obviously do not like the direction of it, and okay.

The list as it stands is probably unworkable. I have already agreed with that. But what is workable? I'm simply asking for the list to be looked at and for ideas about it continue to be shared. What does anyone think? Personally, I'd like to abandon focus-ability and the modular aspect due to added expense and difficulty.

Cheers!

 

[LightTracker]

$55.00 worth of parts shown here:

...not too bad for a 500 lumen light if it works as advertised.

Here's a similar one using a heat-ink from an electric motor:

Here are beam shots of the upper light and the heat-sinked light:

Upper (500 lumen) light:

This photo compares a commercial 5 LED light to the DIY copper light w/heat-sink:

The above images came from the instructables site.

Cheers!

 

[lumafist]

I`d realy like to see this come through!

Been following this thread since day one and still feel that some of the ideas you have are quite doable...

Atleast interesting and well worth a"trial and error"...

 

[Scattergun]

Using the light as a module for mounting on the head, on bikes handlebars, or in your hand is not an easy way... Bikes generally want low weight on the handlebars and high batterycapacity, something that usually involves a separate batterypack. The same goes for using it as a headlamp. However as a handheld it should not be made with a separate batterypack.

And the copper DIY project has a long way to go before you can talk about some sort of modularity, focusability and other things on the list.

Glad to hear you are appreciating my comments, but I´ll take a break from this thread now and maybe come back in a month or so... I find the project too undefined and the goals all too wide to be achieved.

Good luck!

 

[saabluster]

saabluster,

I am not disappointed by your comments, but you have obviously missed the thrust of this.

Maybe I have missed the point of what you are trying to accomplish. Sorry if thats the case.

Look at #1 on the list, this project would be done by people who are in it for the fun, not to bolster a business interest or create overtime for their already probably cramped weekend.

Also, I'm sure there are CPF lights that are tied in with businesses, and maybe the components of homemade (DIY) or fully proprietary projects both benefit by those relationships. That's okay. But its not what I'm interested in doing. I'd like to support that and not work against it, its just not what I'm doing. Okay?

This is an area that may be a little touchy for some. I have heard some people complain that CPF it too commercial compared to the way it used to be. There is no doubt that it is more commercial than it was and it can be frustrating for even me to see some big company come on here promoting their products when they have never been here before. I do not have this same feeling when it is someone who started here on CPF as a regular enthusiast and got into modding to help move forward the state of the art as far as flashlights are concerned. This site and the modders/custom light makers have shamed the rest of the flashlight industry precisely because we love it so much. I'd venture to say that almost every modder/custom light maker does so for the love of it and not solely for a buck. That said if we are going to continue to make the incredible lights that everyone loves and that they cannot get from the "big" flashlight manufacturers we must make the financial side of things work. We can't tell the mortgage company we don't need to pay the bill this month because we are busy doing things we love. The bottom line is we love what we do. It is a job yes, but it is more than that. Think of it more as a hobby that pays.

I'm suggesting doing this for fun.... more like this guy's copper DIY project as I linked to that in the lead-in. See

OK. This makes more sense. I thought you wanted something more professional.

Anyway, it does not need to be called a "CPF light". I didn't mean to ruffle the feathers of other folks who may be doing that.

I don't think you are ruffling anyone's feathers least of all mine. I was just trying to help you see that what you wanted on the list was impossible. And there were too many things that would not gel for me to get deep into it and explain them all. And if I did not do so in a completely exhaustive way I would have had to keep coming back again and again to explain things and I don't have time for either of these. Sorry.

But what is workable? I'm simply asking for the list to be looked at and for ideas about it continue to be shared. What does anyone think? Personally, I'd like to abandon focus-ability and the modular aspect due to added expense and difficulty.

Cheers!

I would start by looking at plumbing. Copper and PVC pipe can be a good point to start with if you want to DIY and don't have access to a lathe or similar.

 

[LightTracker]

saabluster,

Maybe I have missed the point of what you are trying to accomplish. Sorry if thats the case.

No problem.

OK. This makes more sense. I thought you wanted something more professional.

I see no reason why it can't be professional looking, esp. if a custom housing can be acquired for a good price. I didn't mean the copper DIY light should become the project.


Scattergun,

Using the light as a module for mounting on the head, on bike handlebars, or in your hand is not easy... as a handheld it should not be made with a separate batterypack.

I suggest modularizing the battery-pack too. This would solve that problem. You could join the two or keep them separate.

And the copper DIY project has a long way to go before you can talk about some sort of modularity, focusability and other things on the list.

As I said, I didn't link to the copper light because I think it should be copied exactly, only to show its possible to do a lot with a little.

I'd like to revise the list and I will do that pretty soon to try and make it more doable. I'm hoping that others will try too, maybe think of something to add...?

Thanks, and Cheers!

 

[Dave.]

I did not want to post in Custom and Modified because most of that (like most CPF) is geared toward flashlights, and this idea is for a multi-purpose LED light....

I think I might be missing a bit if the back story on this idea having just stumbled upon this thread but this sentence stuck in my head as I was reading through so I have a suggestion:

A non-cylindrical host.

The vast majority of flashlights have the same basic form with the reflector having a single or string of cells stretching out behind it in a line with a housing around them which forms the hand grip. In fact it's such a common-place design that it goes largely unnoticed. What if the cells were arranged flat against the back of the reflector though and it all housed in a more cube like fashion?

You could have a much larger reflector than is usual, say four or even five inches in diameter. This would lend itself to a cube that would be just holdable in one hand if the back was curved and give space for anything up to four or five 18650 cells in the back easily (or even more if you had a two layer arrangement). The much larger reflector would give more room for bigger LED configurations and these could hopefully be focused for throw or flood as desired by moving them forward or back in the reflector.

I think something along these lines would have many applications as a movable utility light, floodlight, spotlight etc. You could even have the option to increase the size of the reflector, add a handle and go for an all out beast of a spotlight.

 

[LightTracker]

...I have a suggestion: A non-cylindrical host.

...You could have a much larger reflector than is usual, say four or even five inches in diameter. This would lend itself to a cube that would be just holdable in one hand if the back was curved and give space for anything up to four or five 18650 cells in the back easily (or even more if you had a two layer arrangement). The much larger reflector would give more room for bigger LED configurations and these could hopefully be focused for throw or flood as desired by moving them forward or back in the reflector ...I think something along these lines would have many applications as a movable utility light, floodlight, spotlight etc. You could even have the option to increase the size of the reflector, add a handle and go for an all out beast of a spotlight.

Thanks, Dave. I think that's possible and it should be considered as an option, so I'll add it to the set of links on the list. I think if the configuration is cylindrical OR box-shaped, or a combination, perhaps a cylindrical head and box-shaped battery pack, would work. Perhaps a large head could serve as an adventure light or a bike light or a utility light and a smaller one could serve as a headlamp (for adventure lighting or caving)... or Motocross?

Keep the ideas flowing....

Cheers!

 

[LightTracker]

CPF Custom Light Design - Wish List - Updated 4/7/09

(If its silver its been stricken from the list, if its red its been added)

1) Non-proprietary design (meaning its freely shared)
2) Lumen range of 500-1500 (higher is better)
3) Heat sinking designed into housing/mount configuration
4) Focusable (is this even possible?)
5) Adaptable for bike, headlamp or hand
6) Electronics capable of adjusting for conditions
7) Dimming
8) Readily available parts
9) Don't have to take out a second mortgage to do it
10) Easily built once parts are acquired
11) Employ drop-in (or quick change) components
12) Modular (changeable) light head and battery-pack
13) Watertight (Clarify: How watertight?)

Quick Link to topic lead-in
Bruce C - Aleph configuration
Dave - Non-flashlight Options

 

[Gunner12]

LightTracker, I'll send you the UI via PM.

If the light is made of tubing parts, it shouldn't be too expensive.

Dimming and good focusability(as in no/few/dim rings) could be harder.

The rest don't see too hard as long as who ever is building it knows where to get parts and has some modding skills.

 

[saabluster]

as long as who ever is building it ..... has some modding skills.

Yeah. Chicks dig skills.

 

[jankj]

I love the modularity-thinking ... here are some thougts on that subject.

My motivation: I am really missing a high-powered, versatile headlamp / bike light with proper heat sinking that does not cost upwards of $600.


My proposal: What about designing a head and a joint that can be attached via some "standardized" female coupling with 2 electrical connections. (One of the connections may be the outer metal surface). LED(s) is (are) and driver electronics are in the head, all they need is a power supply through the coupling. The male connection is either part of the battery casing or somehow connected to it:

=> Make a head band with a male connection in the front and a battery pack in the back (or separate battery case, for your jacket/waist, if you prefer). Voila - a headlamp.

=> Make something similar for a bike - voila, a bike light.

=> Make a tube with batteries and a male connection on the end - voila, a regular flashlight.

It is a subject for further debate wether the switch should be on the male or female part of the light.

Of course, such a light would be a compromize. The optics would not be tailored for some specific application. Rather, its light characteristic would be something that is _*useful*_ in ALL those applications. Enough spill to see your feets when running, enough throw to see the next seconds when cycling...


This is inspired by the way you can swap the head of fenix l1d/l2d. I was irritated why I could not just screw this head onto an headlamp... I am actually making a headlamp based on a separate l1d body, which is shortened (hacksawed) and attatched to an old, weak headlamp through rather crude and inelegant handwork. When finished, I will just unscrew the head of one fenix l1d/l2d and put it on the headlamp whenever I need it. I'll post it when ready.

 

[LightTracker]

I love the modularity-thinking ... here are some thougts on that subject.... My motivation: I am really missing a high-powered, versatile headlamp / bike light with proper heat sinking that does not cost upwards of $600.

I have a feeling your motivation is shared by a lot of other people. You've laid out good ideas above for accomplishing a more adaptable light design. Its good.... as I try to picture it.... I do think I have in mind what you're describing, at least well enough to draw something, and I will do that.

I'd also like to take Gunner12's private email to me and distill it down, combine that with your ideas and the other's (all of which have been very helpful) and the result of this, I hope, will be something that's easier to describe and discuss as it moves forward and takes better shape.

I think a rough list of "pseudo-specs" might also be in order. What does anyone think of that? I think actual specifications would be more detailed than are required now. But the idea is taking some shape and people have said the list is looking more doable.

If anyone else wants to share what they're thinking, do. All of what's shared I think can be reflected in the wish list as long as it doesn't clash too severely with other wishes. And I think the best light will result from combining many ideas/brainstorming. Pull out the stops if you will.

I appreciate the last few comments. Chicks will be happy with the skills that are developed

Cheers!

 

[LightTracker]

Question

I hope someone can answer this as I'd like to have a better understanding before doing a rough sketch.

Earlier I depicted a sample high output Cree XLamp and Heat-sink. I don't think it would be difficult to confirm with the manufacturer (in this case, Cree) how to bond the parts to ensure that max. flux temperature is maintained at the junction. After all, that's what its designed for. But isn't change introduced with each light head or housing? And couldn't heat dissipation suffer from the wrong type (perhaps too small) of enclosure? My gut feeling says yes. I feel each light-head should be designed for the worst case.

Some Lupines (like this one) and other lamps dim automatically when the temp approaches max. flux. to prevent damaging the LED or PCB. But I'm sure there's cost involved in that (and increased complexity). More $ and less do-ability wouldn't be very attractive and definitely would impact the wish list.

My question is this. Would anyone know... or, would a manufacturer be willing show test data so you wouldn't have to delve too deep into imagination for this? I suppose the safe bet, if designing for the worst case, would be find out how the tests were run, and ensure you don't exceed those conditions. If its run continuously in still air at 0 degrees C in an open room with air movement that is different than if its run at 30 degrees C in a small container with no air flow. Also how the unit makes contact with the housing... How much difference could that make in considering the worst case? What about no housing or one with an open back-end?

Does anyone else think a "worst case" should be assumed in design? That may mean not overdriving as much or using more heat-sinking than the manufacturer recommends. Or maybe ensuring that the heat-sink is exposed. It depends on the desire for more lumens, right? And 500 lm seems more attractive than say 1500 for that reason. I could envision one possible light-head on a head strap used on a hot night in a canyon where there's no air movement at all. A worst case maybe? I'd rather not have a light that can't perform that way without having excessive dimming. I mean I'd rather that it didn't dim, but if it does how expensive and complex is that?

Are there any thoughts about this from the builders / modders with experience? As to how to test or accomplish a good design without having to guess too much about it? Also, what is the most important wish, more lumens? Or to be more conservative with respect to heat?

Cheers!