DEFT-X OMG Strikes Back!!!
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Mayo?
I like the cut of your jib
tjswarbrick
Enlightened
I wasn't trying to call it acceptable practice. Just alluding to my way of thinking that, if I trust the producer to create an end product that is worth the money I invested, or to refund my money as soon as that trust runs out or my situation changes, I can handle the wait. Obviously, every individual has to make that type of decision, and figure out when enough has been enough, for himself.
I think it goes without saying that you expect him to come through at some point, or you wouldn't still be here.
I guess I responded a bit snarkier that I might usually based on the general tone I've picked up from this thread. Sorry to have offended.
hikingman
Enlightened
The above quote was May 18th
A month later, same issue. Just not very good, accurate, or appropriate communication. I know the "fan boys" will be all over me on that, but I've got to call a spade a shovel and live with it. That has zero to do with appreciating, or ultimately expecting the end results: a Deft-X. I know that will happen. But the pathway to it is littered with problems that I as a first purchaser am finding hard to swallow..
houser23
Enlightened
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2013
- Messages
- 254
I think everyone of us has demonstrated extraordinary patience waiting for the DEFT-X but I'm going to have to agree with hikingman here. I don't think any of us could have predicted this time frame but I think it would of been in Michaels best interests to iron out all wrinkles with the light before announcing the light on this forum and getting us all in a frothing mess.
+1
With the absolute and utmost respect to Michael and all of his efforts - I agree. I realize he didn't expect to sell this many and that he had to re-work his process etc. I think we have all been very respectful and patient through this time. The initial wait time was 4-6 (maybe 8?) weeks if I remember correctly. Its been over 5 months now, and several times over the past month we have been given the old "Some should be shipping this week."
Where is my light?
Even if its going to be another 3, 4, or 6 months - could we please have a definitive estimate?
I think I speak for myself and the members here when I say that It would be interesting and exciting to see regular weekly updates with a few photos as things continue to take shape. The updates and photos of the bezel process is a great example of this. Even if we have to wait - let us be more a part of the process please
All of us understand that life happens too - if there is a week or two where you can not do any work - we understand... work, family etc comes first. But let us know - we are all reasonable folks and we will continue to go on talking about bacon and tomatoes etc while we wait. We would just like to be informed thats all.
I know this light will be worth the wait, and I am still as excited as I was 5 months ago when I ordered it.
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Assuming we can all agree that Mike is honest, I think its logical to just come to accept that he really had no idea how long this would take, and, STILL really doesn't KNOW.
He's doing what he can, but, being a guy working out of his house, with a full time day job, I think its fair to say that this is his first time going into THIS scale of production, and that he just didn't anticipate HOW MANY orders would come in...or how long it would take to compensate for that.
So, I doubt he's not telling when they'll REALLY be ready because he has a fiendish plot to trick anyone, I think its because HE didn't know either, and was guessing, and was wrong.
So, sure...we'd rather he was right, and gave accurate info. I just don't think he had it...he's winging it, and still is.
He's doing what he can, but, being a guy working out of his house, with a full time day job, I think its fair to say that this is his first time going into THIS scale of production, and that he just didn't anticipate HOW MANY orders would come in...or how long it would take to compensate for that.
So, I doubt he's not telling when they'll REALLY be ready because he has a fiendish plot to trick anyone, I think its because HE didn't know either, and was guessing, and was wrong.
So, sure...we'd rather he was right, and gave accurate info. I just don't think he had it...he's winging it, and still is.
yoyoman
Flashlight Enthusiast
I also think he will deliver an amazing light. I don't know when and i'm willing to wait.
i bought and received an OSTS T10 to amuse myself. May be I should get a TN31 mb?
i bought and received an OSTS T10 to amuse myself. May be I should get a TN31 mb?
hikingman
Enlightened
Assuming we can all agree that Mike is honest, I think its logical to just come to accept that he really had no idea how long this would take, and, STILL really doesn't KNOW.
He's doing what he can, but, being a guy working out of his house, with a full time day job, I think its fair to say that this is his first time going into THIS scale of production, and that he just didn't anticipate HOW MANY orders would come in...or how long it would take to compensate for that.
So, I doubt he's not telling when they'll REALLY be ready because he has a fiendish plot to trick anyone, I think its because HE didn't know either, and was guessing, and was wrong.
So, sure...we'd rather he was right, and gave accurate info. I just don't think he had it...he's winging it, and still is.
In my critical comments I made a few posts back, I certainly wasn't implying Michael wasn't "honest" in terms of eventually producing lights or is doing anything fiendish, as you put it. But there ARE other aspects of "honesty" that are not sinister, but are important.
He should revise his "4 to 6 weeks" shipping time to reflect reality but he hasn't done so in 5 months. I trusted that "promise"
Why did he say on May 18th that lights are just about ready to ship yet he is about to begin to modify a bezel? Don't tell me he doesn't know he can't deliver on that promise.
Why did he tell LUX what he apparently did? I have admiration for him but I also have expectations based on his own published words which are not ln sync with reality. I'm not willing to apologize for him - he needs to do that.
He also built prototypes, so he does know how long it takes to build one. When he has $600 of mine, I don't accept "winging" it. In fact, that is part of the problem. When one requires the full cost of the product up front, that takes a little "hunger" out of efficiently finishing the job so you can collect a balance. I know the human nature of it since I've been a service tech for 30 years and feel pressure daily to finish work I have in shop. So I never am willing to take more than 60% down and don't get a dime more until the job is done.
I think I speak for myself and the members here when I say that It would be interesting and exciting to see regular weekly updates with a few photos as things continue to take shape. The updates and photos of the bezel process is a great example of this. Even if we have to wait - let us be more a part of the process please
That is a beautiful statement and I concur completely.
Dave
LOL
Building a prototype DOES NOT mean he knows how long to build one.
The crux of the ,matter is that if we had ordered ~ 10 lights, as he probably expected, we WOULD HAVE probably gotten them fairly quickly. The problem wasn't that it takes X hours to make ONE light, the problems was he was faced with making A LOT of lights, and, tried to gear up to HANDLE the volume.
IE: I can make an item perhaps in a few hour, but If I have to build a factory to make 100's of them, it takes longer to get the factory running than it does to make the lights individually up to a point of diminishing return.
IMHO, he saw he was going to need a LOT of these puppies, and made the choice to "make a factory" to handle it, instead of making them one at a time, as in the LONG RUN, he'd make more faster, and safer, and under cleaner conditions, etc. (Dust control issues, etc, were early concerns...)
So, I think a few of us would have gotten our 10 lights fairly quickly...everyone posting here at least I think would have gotten theirs by now even one at a time...but the decision, right or wrong, was made to gear up for larger scale production to meet long term demands, at the expense of short term demands.
It would be nice if he changed the published lead time to "We don't know" or something, but, I think he honestly kept thinking that they were about to be shipping...and kept saying that they were about the be shipping, and so forth.
hikingman
Enlightened
TEEJ, I certainly do NOT want to get into any little wrestling match here, I have too much respect for you. But in all sincerity, I can't fathom how you could say Saab didn't know how long it would take to make his own creation in multiples, based at least in part on his prototypes, which, EXCEPT for the new bezel, is exactly what you are buying. And the pictures are on his web site.
And he describes his "factory" in the above quote, which was made on March 13th, more than 90 days ago. No lights in 90 days, which is twice the promised 4-6 weeks.
If I remember correctly he had to invest a considerable amount of money to rework the building process to deal with the high order volume.
Which is nice of him since he probably put a good amount of his profit back into getting us our lights quicker.
Which is nice of him since he probably put a good amount of his profit back into getting us our lights quicker.
dc38
Flashlight Enthusiast
So... How many of us think mike's perfectionistic personality is the real cause of the delay? Given that his lights are the furthest throwing l e d in the world, maybe he got a bad batch of materials overseas and needs to delay? Dunno what the reason is, but yeah...
For me it is the biggest factor in the delay. I sent him one light for experimental purposes way back in September of last year. Then this TN31/MB and Deft X came about so of course that project was temporarily shelved at my suggestion. In our ensuing exchanges of emails about the experiment there is this sense of perfectionism in him that really stands out. (I also have a Deft X on order.)
hikingman
Enlightened
jmpaul320, in the quote in the post just above your post, he said $4k, or about 8.7% of the $ 30k provided by just 50 or so Deft-X customers. So it was logical to do and healthy as well.
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OK, I'm shooting the 10,000th post out the window because I was secretly holding out a dwindling hope that Saturday's mail was perhaps included in "shipping this week."
All of the above reasons and speculations for delays are possible and understandable. Michael has likely learned many important lessions, including mistakes and miscalculations. Despite my criticism, I'm also a loyal fan, having bought 3 DEFT's, promoted in these reviews, and also got all of his edc models.
The one thing that is missing--and which would resolve much of the concern being expressed is for Michael is to take 1-2 minutes and make a post in this thread about the progress/delays on a regular basis--especially when one of us was told verbally that delivery would occur this week.
It is especially important to give updates ongoingly & regularly given the severity of the delay. If it was me in his position, because of the original represented promise of 4-6 weeks, I would have offered to give refunds for those who are no longer comfortable waiting. The bottom line is that when you take $600 from people and represent specific delivery terms, you need to be responsible for having made a contract. Communication is crucial, and it accomplishes nothing to have Teej and others make the same stale excuses instead of what Michael should be doing.
I'm making this post after having placed a follow-up phone call to him today, which went into his answering machine, but no reply.
I swear to God that this is the last pre-pay CPF project I will ever do. I said that after the last one...but have always held a special respect for Michael.
All of the above reasons and speculations for delays are possible and understandable. Michael has likely learned many important lessions, including mistakes and miscalculations. Despite my criticism, I'm also a loyal fan, having bought 3 DEFT's, promoted in these reviews, and also got all of his edc models.
The one thing that is missing--and which would resolve much of the concern being expressed is for Michael is to take 1-2 minutes and make a post in this thread about the progress/delays on a regular basis--especially when one of us was told verbally that delivery would occur this week.
It is especially important to give updates ongoingly & regularly given the severity of the delay. If it was me in his position, because of the original represented promise of 4-6 weeks, I would have offered to give refunds for those who are no longer comfortable waiting. The bottom line is that when you take $600 from people and represent specific delivery terms, you need to be responsible for having made a contract. Communication is crucial, and it accomplishes nothing to have Teej and others make the same stale excuses instead of what Michael should be doing.
I'm making this post after having placed a follow-up phone call to him today, which went into his answering machine, but no reply.
I swear to God that this is the last pre-pay CPF project I will ever do. I said that after the last one...but have always held a special respect for Michael.
onthelake
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2011
- Messages
- 115
Lux, I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm just sorry that this was what your 10k post had to be regarding.
