E-bin P7

[JustinS]

Hi,
Just checking out the Bin coding charts for the P7 & notice that there are quite a few different P7's. Why is it that an LED can have so many different tints, VF's & Brightness groups?
I've only seen C & D bins available, when is SSC releasing the E bin P7?
Cheers
Justin

 

[Marduke]

E bin? Probably never. SSC can only produce the bottom of the D bin currently. If history is a guide, they will just split the D bin when they approach it's halfway point into a D1 and D2 bin, or move the E bin lower to encompass the upper half of the current D bin.

 

[monkeyboy]

We seem to have reached a limit in LED efficiency with current manufacturing processes with the current Cree R2 bin. However Cree, are continually announcing greater and greater achievements in the lab so I think the next generation of Cree led will gain a large leap in efficiency rather than an incremental increase. Once this technology finds it's way into the SSC P7, I would expect performance beyond E-bin.

Whether or not we'll be seeing this new technology in one months time or five years time is a different matter.

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

I think we are on the verge of a major breakthrough. Manufacturers NEED to make something better. They can't just keep tweaking what they are already using. They are already using many different little tricks to suck out as much light as they can from these dies, how many more little tricks up their sleeves before they have to just make a new show all together?

Of course, one way around it is learning to grow LED material on substrates other than sapphire. I recall reading somewhere about researchers finding a way to grow blue LEDs on a type of silicon

Right now, chip manufacturers are using different, more advanced phosphors, using current spreaders, light-extraction layers with nanotubes, making the light extraction layer super-thin, even flipping chips to remove the need for bond wires. I don't know what's next, but I'm hoping they just find a new chip material instead of doing all this stuff to existing chip technology.

 

[TexLite]

E bin? Probably never. SSC can only produce the bottom of the D bin currently.

DejaVu....

Do you have any test data that reflects this? I'm not aware of any conclusive lab test involving the flux output of any number of P7's.

If history is a guide, they will just split the D bin when they approach it's halfway point into a D1 and D2 bin, or move the E bin lower to encompass the upper half of the current D bin.

What history?

Most all are aware of the fact that SSC changed the binning structure.It was done once for the P4 bins and once for the P7.I don't think being changed once can be classsified as marketing hype,and no reason to predict it will be done in the future.

-Michael

 

[LIGHTSMAD]

+

 

[Marduke]

DejaVu....

Do you have any test data that reflects this? I'm not aware of any conclusive lab test involving the flux output of any number of P7's.

The data is referenced in the last time you didn't believe me. Go look it up in that thread.

What history?

Most all are aware of the fact that SSC changed the binning structure.It was done once for the P4 bins and once for the P7.I don't think being changed once can be classsified as marketing hype,and no reason to predict it will be done in the future.

-Michael

Well, the fact that they have shown a tendency to alter the bins (2/2 for the most recent models) at precisely the same time they start producing emitters capable of just barely reaching the bottom of the new bin is indeed deceptive marketing IMO.

 

[TexLite]

The data is referenced in the last time you didn't believe me. Go look it up in that thread.

If this is the thread you are referencing:Newbie question: Differences between MC-E and P7 LEDs

You never posted any evidence there to support your accusations and assumptions,quite the contrary in fact.You made multiple erroneous statements which you never reconciled and here you are making the same accusations.

Well, the fact that they have shown a tendency to alter the bins (2/2 for the most recent models)at precisely the same time they start producing emitters capable of just barely reaching the bottom of the new bin is indeed deceptive marketing IMO.

To me Marduke it makes the most sense to change bins at the time new production standards are reached.

Why would a manufacturer waste resources altering bins which had no relation to and were nowhere close to current production standards?

I fail to see how changing the bin structure to tighten the bins once for each product could be classified as a "tendency".

And where is the test data showing the flux data for SSC P7 samples showing SSC is only able to produce "the bottom of the bin"?

Its not referenced in the thread previously mentioned,or here.

-Michael

 

[Marduke]

If this is the thread you are referencing:Newbie question: Differences between MC-E and P7 LEDs

You never posted any evidence there to support your accusations and assumptions,quite the contrary in fact.You made multiple erroneous statements which you never reconciled and here you are making the same accusations.



To me Marduke it makes the most sense to change bins at the time new production standards are reached.

Why would a manufacturer waste resources altering bins which had no relation to and were nowhere close to current production standards?

I fail to see how changing the bin structure to tighten the bins once for each product could be classified as a "tendency".

And where is the test data showing the flux data for SSC P7 samples showing SSC is only able to produce "the bottom of the bin"?

Its not referenced in the thread previously mentioned,or here.

-Michael

No, it was not that thread. And it was not me, but several others who posted supporting evidence.

And I can't believe one could not see the dishonest binning structure of SSC. They purposely start with wide bins, and half them AFTER they can produce in the upper half of the bin.

P4-U for example started out 91-118.5, which consumers obviously thought they had an equal chance of buying form any portion of that bin. In reality, U-bin P4's were almost entirely <100. Only after SSC was able to produce >=100 did they split the bin. This was purely a marketing ploy, designed to trick early consumers they could be getting better LED's than they were.

SSC is the only company I know of to change their binning structure AFTER model release starts. All the other companies have a shred of dignity, and stick with the original bin structure they lay out to start with.

 

[saabluster]

No, it was not that thread. And it was not me, but several others who posted supporting evidence.

And I can't believe one could not see the dishonest binning structure of SSC. They purposely start with wide bins, and half them AFTER they can produce in the upper half of the bin.

P4-U for example started out 91-118.5, which consumers obviously thought they had an equal chance of buying form any portion of that bin. In reality, U-bin P4's were almost entirely <100. Only after SSC was able to produce >=100 did they split the bin. This was purely a marketing ploy, designed to trick early consumers they could be getting better LED's than they were.

SSC is the only company I know of to change their binning structure AFTER model release starts. All the other companies have a shred of dignity, and stick with the original bin structure they lay out to start with.

Marduke you are spot on with your reasoning. They are very deceptive in the manner in which they release new products. I have seen it over the years. They put out a press release saying that x product has flux output up to or is binned up to y lumens per watt and then make the bins freakishly wide to encompass the as yet unreachable flux output. They are playing on the ignorance of some people and the overoptimistic nature of others that will believe there is a chance to get a few LEDs that would be at the top of the bin because they so desperately want it to be so. It is plainly obvious what SSC are doing. Of all the LED maker/packagers Cree is the most honest and upfront and it is for that reason I own Cree stock and not Lumileds, SSC, or anyone else's.

 

[easilyled]

No, it was not that thread. And it was not me, but several others who posted supporting evidence.

Can you provide a link to the thread with the evidence please.

 

[Marduke]

Can you provide a link to the thread with the evidence please.

There are literally dozens of comparative threads in this subforum. Use the search function.

 

[easilyled]

No thanks.

It would be looking like a needle in a haystack.

Particularly since such evidence obviously doesn't exist.

 

[jirik_cz]

look here, here, here and here. not a statistically relevant data, but at least all these samples are all closer to the bottom of the bin...

 

[Marduke]

No thanks.

It would be looking like a needle in a haystack.

Particularly since such evidence obviously doesn't exist.

look here, here, here and here. not a statistically relevant data, but at least all these samples are all closer to the bottom of the bin...

As I said, just a small sample of the many threads available with a quick search.

It's horribly obvious what their marketing strategy is to anyone with two braincells to rub together.

 

[TexLite]

You said:

The data is referenced in the last time you didn't believe me. Go look it up in that thread.

Lets see,the last time I "didn't believe" you was the time you made at least 3 completely erroneous statements regarding the output of the P7 and SSC binning structure.It was in this thread:Newbie question: Differences between MC-E and P7 LEDs

Then:

No, it was not that thread. And it was not me, but several others who posted supporting evidence.

So which thread is it in?

There's not one bit of lab test data on flux output in that thread or any other other I'm aware of.

You've stated time and again that SSC can only produce "the bottom of the bin",where is the test data showing this?

There are literally dozens of comparative threads in this subforum. Use the search function.

Then post links to just one or two with actual test data.

look here, here, here and here. not a statistically relevant data, but at least all these samples are all closer to the bottom of the bin...

Jiri,three of those links are to one thread.And while its the most informative we have so far,its one or two emitters out of a hundred thousand tested with a homemade setup.

Its one of the most informative threads on CPF,but it dosen't in any way reflect what Marduke is claiming,namely the P7 flux range SSC is producing.

As I said, just a small sample of the many threads available with a quick search.

Then it shouldn't be hard to post a link with test data,but neither yourself or anyone else has posted a link yet to any test data.

It's horribly obvious what their marketing strategy is to anyone with two braincells to rub together.

Well there go the insults.

It should be so easy for someone with so many braincells to post technical data that supports their claims.

-Michael

 

[TexLite]

...They put out a press release saying that x product has flux output up to or is binned up to y lumens per watt and then make the bins freakishly wide to encompass the as yet unreachable flux output.They are playing on the ignorance of some people and the overoptimistic nature of others that will believe there is a chance to get a few LEDs that would be at the top of the bin because they so desperately want it to be so.

I'm not saying SSC is honest or upfront with their marketing,and quite honestly,I don't have a horse in this race.

I really don't have a favorite,I'm just trying to be objective,and there is no evidence to support many of the claims previously made here.

-Michael

 

[Marduke]

I'm not saying SSC is honest or upfront with their marketing,and quite honestly,I don't have a horse in this race.

I really don't have a favorite,I'm just trying to be objective,and there is no evidence to support many of the claims previously made here.

-Michael

Really? You seem to jump in all the SSC vs Cree threads, always defending SSC. So for not having a "horse in the race", you seem to have a bit of a tendancy there.

In this thread, we get two "random" data points which are bottom binned.

They changed the P7 bins not once, but twice to encompass their "premium" bins. This post shows a D bin which does not even meet spec, and this post shows a first gen C bin barely meeting original spec. They then lowered the C bin to 700, then split it.

So, we are 4/4 so far with SSC selling bottom bin with "random" samples, and 3 premium bin changes for two models in recent history. Can you get much more obvious than that?

There are also countless posts of people simply getting disappointed lights chalked up to "bin lottery". There are literally hundreds of posts related to P7-C lights which were advertised as "up to 900 lumens" driven at the spec 2.8A which were mysteriously ~200 lumens short by visual estimation. Not an actual data point, but hundreds of accounts should stand for something.

 

[TexLite]

Really? You seem to jump in all the SSC vs Cree threads, always defending SSC. So for not having a "horse in the race", you seem to have a bit of a tendancy there.

I seem to "jump in" because you along with some others have an obvious tendency to post completely erroneous information when it comes to anything SSC.

In this thread, we get two "random" data points which are bottom binned.

The two "random points" are the from the same thread jiri linked to.They are not conclusive lab tests.The measurements are taken in a lightbox(of which your aware),not in an integrating sphere.

Even if they were IS lab results,2 samples out of 100,000 can hardly be considered to support the claims you make.

They changed the P7 bins not once, but twice to encompass their "premium" bins.

No,they were changed once,not twice.The original C bin which was 740lm-960lm was split and the D and E bin added.

This post shows a D bin which does not even meet spec, and this post shows a first gen C bin barely meeting original spec. They then lowered the C bin to 700, then split it.

Those post are from the same thread,jtr1962's,the same thread again which both yourself and jiri previously linked.

So, we are 4/4 so far with SSC selling bottom bin with "random" samples

You have absolutely no idea from what part of the bin range SSC is producing emitters,it is a complete assumption on your part,and a bad one at that.

Even if jtr1962's test could be considered completely accurate,two or three emitters out of hundreds of thousands could hardly be considered an accurate reprensentation of what SSC or any other manufacturer is producing.

,and 3 premium bin changes for two models in recent history. Can you get much more obvious than that?

Again,SSC split the P4 binning once and the P7 binning once.

There are also countless posts of people simply getting disappointed lights chalked up to "bin lottery". There are literally hundreds of posts related to P7-C lights which were advertised as "up to 900 lumens" driven at the spec 2.8A which were mysteriously ~200 lumens short by visual estimation. Not an actual data point, but hundreds of accounts should stand for something.

Thats one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard.El Cheapo lights advertised as top bin when in reality the were who knows what bin driven at who knows what current,(many delivered nowhere near advertised current),has no bearing whatsoever on what a manufacturer of one component is able to produce.

There are dozens of disappointments daily from buyers who purchased flashlights with all different types of emitters,Cree,SSC,Luxeon,etc.The poor manufacturing and false advertising of flashlight manufacturers have nothing to do with what the emitter manufacturer is able to produce.

The vast majority of customers who purchase lights from quality manufacturers and modders whose lights actually output rated current and actually use premium bin emitters are more than pleased with output.

You still haven't produced any test data to support the claims your making.

I don't care if the average D bin P7 is 801lm or 899lm,I only want to see the data to back up what your claiming.

For that matter,I'd love to see some test data for any of the major models currently in use,I'm sure everyone here would.

-Michael

 

[Marduke]

No,they were changed once,not twice.The original C bin which was 740lm-960lm was split and the D and E bin added.


Again,SSC split the P4 binning once and the P7 binning once.

Wrong. It was 740-960. It was then 700-900, then 700-800 and 800-900. Although these TWO changes were close together, they were separate changes.

So not only was the P7 binning split, it was lowered into the original B bin so they could sell more B bins as being "premium". So it was more than even just a split.

Believe what you want, but it doesn't take much reasoning ability to see what SSC is doing, and most of CPF can clearly see that. I am sorry that you are incapable of that level of reasoning.