ELIZABETH SMART FOUND ALIVE!!!

[Wits' End]

[ QUOTE ]
Sigman said:
When she reaches the "legal age of consent" .... she can become a prostitute, drug addict

[/ QUOTE ]
Even at age of consent these are illegal in most states /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif .
Assuming an illegal drug addict, alchohol is legal most places. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

 

[Sigman]

All I really meant was that at the legal age she can make her own decision to "run off" if she wants, however as a minor...different story.

 

[Silviron]

I just heard the Utah Attorney General (On Fox news) say that age of consent in Utah is 13; and that the age of consent for kidnapping (I'm paraphrasing) is 14.

{Edited: I just looked through the actual Utah Statutes, and that isn't exactly what the statutes say... In fact, they don't say anything specifically about this situation, There must be two dozen (at least) laws that were broken, but with mitigatring circumstances may be nullified... IF Elizabeth gave her consent without physical coercion at any time, it will be an incredibly complex case.

Now, I'm not saying that that is morally right or legally accurate, but that is what the guy said.

Then the arresting officers were interviewed, and according to them, Miss Smart lied about who she was several times, and even after the guy and his "wife" were locked up and she admitted who she was, she often asked what was going to happen to them and if they were in bad trouble.

So either she was brainwashed VERY professionally or.....

God Bless her, she is going to need it either way. And if things don't go the way they should in court, that scumbag guy and his scumbag "wife" could "skate" on minor charges.

 

[dano]

I have a theory on the whole situation, but decided not to say it...Needless to say, in my opinion, this wasn't a kidnapping.

--dan

 

[Greta]

Did I hear right that there was actually a marriage ceremony on the first day that she was "kidnapped"?... And that's why she never tried to get away?

 

[Silviron]

I haven't heard that one Sasha, but wouldn't be too surprised.

Odd how things turned out though (not that we really know anything yet, and maybe never will).

When she first disappeared, a lot of people had an theory that she had been taken in to some radical Morman sect polygamous marriage. They were thoroughly shouted down as rabid Mormon haters. Now it appears that they were correct, at least to some extent.

Personally, I had no opinions as to the who, whats or whys of it until the first news reports of her recovery. Then, I said there is more to this than a simple kidnapping.

It is very interesting that she seems to have been able to slip from what was a very weird, very bad situation back into the bosom of her family so easily, remaining under the close eye of the media with so much grace and equanimity.

So, my conclusion is that she is either a consummate actress or completely empty inside; a robot preforming as programmed.

You were a 15 year old young lady recently, and have a daughter that was 15 even more recently; How would you or she have reacted in this sort of situation? Very differently, I'd guess.

 

[Greta]

Ok... I'll jump in with both feet... *deep breath*... here goes...

When this all first broke and they were talking about Elizabeth's upbringing, I remember shaking my head and saying... "this is no kidnapping". She had been raised in what I would consider to be an unrealistic world. She was not allowed on the internet, she was not allowed to go to sleepovers at friends'. She was under total control of her parents. And from what I had gathered (just a gut feeling I got), she had been raised to be subservient.

So because of all of that "gut feeling" stuff that I had gotten way back when, all of this makes perfect sense to me. Here's what I see:

This guy was first of all a man. Which means he was an authority figure. Second he was a very religious man... fancied himself some kind of religious authority?... therefore doubley a figure of authority in her eyes. Having been raised in such a ... I can't think of the word... protected? secluded? rigid? ... environment, she simply did as she was raised to do ~ she respected authority.

Now as far as if this had been MY daughter? This guy would have had to have changed his name to Bobbit... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Little girls who are raised in the real world... yes, the big bad ugly world... the REAL world... wouldn't just quietly follow along and not take the first opportunity that presented itself to let someone... EVERYONE... know who she was. And taken some prisoners of her own in the process.

I believe in protecting our children... but not with ignorance. I protected mine with knowledge and a Swiss Army knife until she was old enough to own a .22.

 

[leddite]

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
I believe in protecting our children... but not with ignorance. I protected mine with knowledge and a Swiss Army knife until she was old enough to own a .22.

[/ QUOTE ]

"don't mess with me, my mommy's gun is bigger than mine" :>

 

[Greta]

[ QUOTE ]
leddite said:
[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
I believe in protecting our children... but not with ignorance. I protected mine with knowledge and a Swiss Army knife until she was old enough to own a .22.

[/ QUOTE ]

"don't mess with me, my mommy's gun is bigger than mine" :>


[/ QUOTE ]

Well yes... I have a .45 ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Silviron]

Hmm, Interesting. I didn't know that about her upbringing- I mean, it isn't too surprising considering the Mormon thing...

But, I was pretty much basing (biasing?) my ideas on the videos of her that they were showing every day for the last 9 months.

I saw in those videos a very active, outgoing and talented young lady. She seemed to me to be someone secure in her beauty, her "self" and much more worldly than one would expect in a traditional Mormon family.

I don't have any offspring myself, but if I did, I'd raise them pretty much the same as you do. (Wouldn't allow any tattoos though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) People raised with "rose colored glasses" are doomed to a life of disappointment, if not disaster.

 

[Greta]

[ QUOTE ]
(Wouldn't allow any tattoos though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL... my mother didn't allow tats or piercings and look how I turned out... I have 5 tats and I'm working on a 6th. And I have 5 piercings in one ear, one in the other, a navel ring and my nose pierced.

She shoulda just let me get that second whole in my one ear when I was a 14... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[The_LED_Museum]

That's funny!!
My stepmom and dad were totally against piercings and tattoos, and REALLY against the freaky haircolor, but my natural mother is the other way around. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I lost all of my piercings except a titty ring and lost all of the bizarre haircolor at the hospital a few months ago though, so I guess I'm almost normal now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Greta]

Craig... are you implying that I'm not normal? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif... I'm crushed... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Albany Tom]

Sasha, I absolutely, completely agree with your thoughts on this, and we never seem to agree on anything! So I think you must be right. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, it's good that she's back.

This is the kind of thing, although not to this extent, that I had in the back of my head when we were discussing "question authority", how ever many months ago.

Your .45 - single or double action?

 

[Greta]

[ QUOTE ]
Albany Tom said:Your .45 - single or double action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Single... Me and my .45

BTW Tom... I grew up about 35 miles from you. In New Lebanon. My whole family is still there and I'll be going back in May.

I don't quite know what the proper terminology would be... but "questioning authority" just doesn't set well with me. I suppose in an instance like this, it would have been in Elizabeth's best interest to question the authority of this man who had kidnapped her. However... (*disclaimer*~~~ the following is purely speculation on my part and not based on any actual facts that have or have not been revealed by those who would be in a position to know the actual facts)... if as I have speculated, the Smarts raised Elizabeth in such a guarded and rigid environment and in such a way as to respect authority such as religious leaders and/or men and/or elders, then how would she know better and how could she question anything? I understand what you are saying... and in an instance like this, then yes I would agree with you that children SHOULD question but as shown in MANY instances like this, questioning is not an option and is never even considered.

A similar situation would be the molestation of the young boys in churches by the priests. These young boys never even considered questioning what was happening until much later in their lives when they were exposed to the real world and found out that it was wrong.

I'm not sure I'm making my point very well... help me out here. Am I making sense?

 

[leddite]

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
[ QUOTE ]
Albany Tom said:Your .45 - single or double action?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite know what the proper terminology would be... but "questioning authority" just doesn't set well with me. I suppose in an instance like this,

...

I'm not sure I'm making my point very well... help me out here. Am I making sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, you are. imho, in brief:

o respect is earned, it's not given, esp not automatically. it can be
earned QUICKLY though, when merit presents itself.

o authority over oneself needs to be validated in some manner, even if
it requires challenging their identify and qualifications. there are times
when one becomes the authority, be it knowledge, by assignment, or other
circumstance.

o duty is pledged only after careful assessment of respect and authority.
blind obedience is for robots.

a person sneaking into your bedroom at night, without your parents being
there, clearly "up to something", should have set off all kinds of alarms
for a normal kid. clearly, something was "going on"... we'll probably never
know either.

 

[Wolfen]

I was suprised at the speed that she was returned home.

 

[Gandalf]

I heard on Minnesota Public Radio some speculation (totally without any facts, of course) that some authorities believed that the young girl may have had 'Stockholm Syndrome'

That's when the kidnaped person comes to sympathize with the person(s) who kidnaped them.

Remember when the SLA kidnaped Patty Hearst? And she wound up participating in a bank robbery? I believe that was 'Stockholm Syndrome', as well.

This is a very complex situation, and the real truth may never be revealed, to spare the family and/or victim.

I'm just glad she's still alive. Young girls who are abducted (not taken by one of her divorced/separated parents) are virtually never found [alive].

In a small town in Minnesota, a young boy by the name of Jacob Wetterling was abducted at gun point in broad daylight by a man while he was riding his bicycle with another young boy. Despite the eye witness, Jacob's abductor has never been caught, and Jacob's body has never been found. It's been well over 10 years, now, too.

When Jacob hadn't turned up after a few days, I predicted his body would be found somewhere in one of the many wooded areas in or near Minnesota. I believe he's buried somewhere, but has yet to be found.

Every year or two, there is a story about a person or people hunting in Minnesota, Wisconsin or Michigan, who find a body or skeleton deep in an unpopulated area.

I believe that's where Jacob is. Or at the bottom of one of the approx. 20,000 lakes and other bodies of water in Minnesota.

 

[Albany Tom]

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:

I'm not sure I'm making my point very well... help me out here. Am I making sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes perfect sense. I really wasn't being critical of what we were talking about before. Your take on this girls upbringing matched exactly with what I'd been thinking myself, which I thought was cool. We do have a different outlook on things, but this situation is so far on the fringe of normal, that we both saw it the same way. That, I thought, was cool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You know, when I asked "single or double", I was assuming an automatic. Should have known you were a long colt fan... Nice pic, btw. You'll have to give me a yell when you're in the neighborhood.

 

[Silviron]

A wheel gun huh? Lots of you old-timers carry those. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon