Ft. Hood Shootings - Take 2

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Let's try to remember that discussing the application of Islamic religion as "reason" for the attack is Underground material, and is unfair to the international and diverse religious background of CPF. Those that may feel a justification in disagreeing, may not feel free to expand on the conflict you're introducing.

The extremist nature of Hasan's reasoning can be reasonably rationalized. The non-extremist application of the massive number of practicing Islamics' beliefs should be done in a setting that permits proper and strong rebuttal.
 
.....and even if we had kicked him out of the military, he would have undoubtedly committed the same act against civilians instead of us who have volunteered our lives for the country,

That being said, one can't kick him out for his views, the constitution guarantees that. And violating that would be more of a tragedy than what happened at Ft. Hood because all we fight for would then be meaningless.


If Hasan had staged his massacre in a civilian Texas setting his shooting rampage would likely have been a short one.

Our Constitution is a social contract designed to alleviate the inconveniences that exist in nature, not permit them to play out. What Hasan engaged in first was sedition, and then treason. Any constitution that allows members of a social contract to have their right to life taken away by a member claiming First Amendment rights amounts to nothing but lawlessness.

There must be a balance.

Time to start enforcing the Smith act again. The SCOTUS may overturn some of the convictions, but at lest it will hinder people like Hasan who want to harm fellow citizens.
 
I am amazed this thread has lasted this long.
Empath- do you consider theory and or consipracy theories off limits and subject to removal by yourself on the grounds of speculation?
 
I am amazed this thread has lasted this long.
Empath- do you consider theory and or consipracy theories off limits and subject to removal by yourself on the grounds of speculation?

You thinking maybe the Romulins are involved? (They are a shifty bunch)


A bit of levity.
 
"Theory and or conspiracy theories" is rather general for a rule.

I wouldn't want people feeling like they needed to submit posts for our approval.

Discuss the topic as you would among casual friends, but keep in mind the makeup of your friends. Your friends are from all nations, all religions, all sort of political leanings, all races, varied lifestyle preferences and made up of differences I can't even think of at the time. You need to be able to relax in the Cafe, and so do they.

Handled skillfully, the range of commentary can be very large.
 
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Jawman,

I'm not trying to derail the thread; and my understanding of Sgt's post was the same as yours. I did post in a hurry and just re-read it and I agree it's a little tangental.

I disagree with Starhalo's take on why Hasan did the deed.

Hasan is guaranteed a fair trial; s let's see how it all works out.
 
That being said, one can't kick him out for his views, the constitution guarantees that. And violating that would be more of a tragedy than what happened at Ft. Hood because all we fight for would then be meaningless.

Except the UCMJ and regulation does limit constitutional rights guaranteed to other citizens. These limits have withstood challenges in court and the case law has developed what is sometimes called the Judicial Doctrine of Military Deference. Free speech, free practice of religion, privacy rights, the right of assembly, and the right to petition are all limited to some extent. One of those important lessons from my old drill sergeant - we preserve democracy, we don't practice it.

Not only are the First Amendment rights of all military members limited to some extent, the freedom speech of commissioned officers is more limited than that of enlisted members. Two articles of the UCMJ, which limit free speech, apply to officers but not enlisted - Articles 88 and 133.

Article 88 of the UCMJ states:
"Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."
Article 88 is pretty clear in the type of speech that is prohibited. The provisions are limited but do impact what would normally be considered free speech. Actual prosecution at court martial is extremely rare. There has been exactly 1 conviction of an Article 88 offense since the UCMJ was enacted in 1950. It was against an officer wearing civilian clothes and carrying as sign calling President Johnson a fascist at a peace rally. He was off duty, didn't organize the rally, and did not identify himself as being a military officer during it. He was convicted and sentenced to forfeiture of pay and allowances, dismissal, and 2 years confinement at hard labor. The sentence was reduced to 1 year, and he only served 3 months before being paroled. That's still 3 months of hard labor for carrying a sign in a political march. The Supreme Court ruled that this did not count as protected speech under the First Amendment and rejected his appeal.

Non-judicial punishment under Article 15 (which will kill an officers career), letters of reprimand, and the "opportunity" to be resign/retire are more common however. A good example is the case of Air Force MG Campbell who gained some notoriety for his characterization of President Clinton. We'll leave the exact phrase out of a family friendly forum. MG Campbell was reprimanded, fined $7,000, and forced to retire.

Article 133 states:
"Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."
Prosecutions related to political speech under this Article are also rare. It is used more for "moral character" type violations. The last successful prosecution for political speech, that of CPT Howard Levy, charged him with making ""intemperate, defamatory, provoking, disloyal, contemptuous and disrespectful" statements under this article. Expressing his view about the war in Vietnam, and the Special Forces soldiers he refused to train, also earned him a forfeiture, dismissal, and confinement.

Article 134 applies to every service member. It's the general article which covers everything else not specifically spelled out in the other punitive articles that affects good order and discipline. Some items that are charged under Article 134 are spelled out by Executive Order. One of those is "Disloyal Statements." CPT Levy was also convicted under Article 134 for the same statements.

DOD Directive 1344.10, "Political Activities by Members of the Armed Forces" also limits free speech. While encouraging political participation it also spells out a list of political activities that are not allowed to members of the armed forces. Failure to comply can result in charges under Article 92 for disobeying lawful orders and regulations. There is also guidance on internet postings/blogging. Again violating that guidance leads back to Article 92.

I won't Monday morning quarterback/command and comment on what MAJ Hasan's chain of command could have or should have done based on the information available to them. They most certainly did have the power to discipline and/or dismiss him from service based on things that would be considered free speech when said by civilians. He retained the right to his views when he raised his right hand and swore to protect the Constitution. He just gave up some of his rights to actually express his views.
 
You thinking maybe the Romulins are involved? (They are a shifty bunch)


A bit of levity.

How did you know that- did you mind meld the monitor again? They are a sneaky lot- always cloaking into the neutral zone and federation territory.:poke:
 
One of Hassan's Emails to the al quaeda cleric terrorist: Also now financial records of him donating $20-30K/year to terrorist charities. This removes any lingering doubts I may have had about some small degree of mental illness.
 
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If Hasan had staged his massacre in a civilian Texas setting his shooting rampage would likely have been a short one.

I was instantly reminded of the Luby's Cafeteria Massacre back in 1991. Took place in Texas. Shortly afterwards, the media began running stories regarding how easy it is to buy a firearm in Texas.

Those stories came to a screeching halt when it was discovered that one of the customers in the cafeteria had a handgun in the glovebox of her car, in the parking lot. She left it there because, at the time, it would have been illegal for her to bring her gun into a public establishment. Being a law-abiding citizen, she followed the law ... And lost her parents in the massacre.
 
Our state legislature passed a carry law after the Killeen incident. A little late.

Maybe the military will allow officers to carry their sidearms on base at all times in the future.
 
LuxLuther,

Couple what you said with the profiling that the Israelis use in order to identify a potential individual Jihadist "attacker". I think you'll find that Hasan fits the profiles to a T in the way he prepared for the attack. Funny that none of that was mentioned by the MSM; ignored by our military; yet it's common knowledge in places where problems like this are a daily concern. Sorry; I can't post a link.
 
Yes, it is a shame. Especially for those families of the killed and wounded. There is much we should learn from Israeli security, but we have already moved back to a 9/10 reality regarding the war with terrorism.

Unfortunately, it will take another cataclysmic attack to destroy the dangerous ACLU approach to terrorism. I fear the severity of the next one, but al quaeda is quite clear that 9/11 did not even come close to achieving their goal.
 
Unfortunately, it will take another cataclysmic attack to destroy the dangerous ACLU approach to terrorism. I fear the severity of the next one, but al quaeda is quite clear that 9/11 did not even come close to achieving their goal.

No doubt such opinion is based upon many facets you're observing in current climate and events. It is stretching to far more than a discussion of Ft. Hood. It's also something that should require elaboration beyond the function of the Cafe.

Let's try to remember what should be conducted in the Underground. It seems like a fine line we're permitting here, I know. But, let's try to hold the discussion to topics that won't suddenly become too difficult to manage.
 
No doubt such opinion is based upon many facets you're observing in current climate and events. It is stretching to far more than a discussion of Ft. Hood. It's also something that should require elaboration beyond the function of the Cafe.

Let's try to remember what should be conducted in the Underground. It seems like a fine line we're permitting here, I know. But, let's try to hold the discussion to topics that won't suddenly become too difficult to manage.

You are exactly right. Sorry. It is so easy to drift over the line. Every day I hear about the latest Hassan development, I immediately go to my honored time in the Navy, and the friends killed in the twin towers. Probably best for me to bow out of this thread, it is just always too personal and upsetting for me.
 
If he was, I wouldn't be surprised. Have you seen their latest ad.?

"Wanted: Leadership opening in Dept. of Homeland Security. Looking for someone who actually knows what the Hell they're doing."

Starting salary: Depends on level of national fear at time of hiring. 🙄
 
It's the same name and the title seems to be correct. I was just wondering if this might have been one of the reasons that Congressmen weren't briefed before the press leak. Kinda weird if he is indeed an advisor to this administration's Homeland Security team.
 
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