Gladius vs. U2......if only one?

[McGizmo]

[ QUOTE ]
<<...I've never seen an LED light overcome the ambient light issue...>>

[/ QUOTE ]

This is becoming a very interesting thread and I for one am trying to learn more about these lights and understand the realities faced by users. Us little guys and modders will always be able to respond quicker to changing technologies. I won't presume or assume to advise anyone using lights while in harms way. I have no experience in the tactical arena but I have encontered darkness and experimented with illumination techniques and tools. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Now getting to the quoted statement, we have three basic considerations regarding lights, in my estimation. They are flux (total light output), lux (a measure of concentration, columation or throw, if you will) and we have the spectral breakdown of the light produced. It would seem that some are implying that the spectral output of the LED lights are at fault when it comes to "overcoming ambient" and I suspect that the major short coming of the LED's is based on their flux instead.

If we are going to discuss lights that can reach distant targets, let's rule out 5W LED's for sake of argument because most samples available are in the flood and not throw "category". Now, limiting the discussion to LuxIII LED's let's consider the typical flux one might expect to get from them. Realistically, what should we agree on coming out of the front end? Maybe and optimistically 40 or 50 lumens? OK, now pick some incandescent lights which have similar luminious output. How do these lights compare?

I would like to make another comment. It would seem to me that to overcome ambient warm or yellow light (whatever overcome means /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif) that you mean that you want to see the pressence of your light in addition to that ambient light being reflected by the landscape/ target. I agree that if the color of the landscape is in the yellow to red spectrum, a LED will have to produce considerably more flux relative to an incan because the LED is defficient in this area of the visible spectrum. Looking for additional "warm" light being reflected from the target will be difficult to see. A LED light simply doesn't bring much warmth to the party! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif A white LED light would suck on Mars! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

To put this in simplier terms, I think the real shortcoming perceived regarding the LED lights is based primarily on the disparity in total light output available and it may well be that the comparisons being made in the field are akin to 4 cylinder engines being compaired to 8 cylinder engines of much greater displacement. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

Speaking in general terms of comparison may be hiding the actual physics involved that make the basis of the resulting perceptions.

I propose that the LED lights are found wanting for two reasons. One is total output or flux and the other is lack of output in the higher wave lengths (reds). To what level each of these contribute, I have no idea but suspect that the former is more of a factor than the latter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif Certainly a comment bringing the SF M6 (250 or 500 lumens) into the picture should not be considered reasonable in comparison with LED lights as they presently stand! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

My only real concern and motivation for posting in this thread is that of properly attributing the perceived "faults" and short comings to the real sources. Otherwise, we may have false understandings and information that will lead us to incorrect conclusions about these lights as well as those still to come. General statements which are true of todays offerings may not hold tomorrow. Comments like "LED lights won't work outside or overcome outside ambient light" need further qualification, IMHO because they are not necessarily true in absolute terms or all situations.

EDIT: It is unfortunate that this discusion has taken an interesting but well off topic turn! It is likely that there are others who could contribute and would if this were under a subject title of LED VS Incandescent but these folks may care less about the Gladius VS the U2; both of which are LED lights! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

 

[cy]

[ QUOTE ]
ygbsm said:The only issues I've had is that I've had a couple of drops of water enter the rear of the light when I've rinsed the light off (not total immersion, just holding it under the tap) and that the switch assembly rattles a bit if the light is shaken in any mode but lock out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else having same problems with water getting in and switch rattling? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

 

[McGizmo]

Water has access to the interior of the switch as well as into the battery tube, up to the point where an internal bore O-ring in the tube will theoretically stop it. If you submerge the light and then take it apart, you will find some water in the rear of the tube. This does not mean that it progressed past the O-ring barrier. I have my doubts about prolonged exposure to salt water given the interior of the tube and switch seem to be treated with chem film only but it could be that any significant corrosion would take a long time and be visible if it did occur. Certainly cleaning and proper maintenance of the light would keep this potential from becoming a reality, anyway.

The switch rattle is a function of the design, IMHO and has no obvious fault other than the fact that it rattles. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am more concerned that a potential weakness would lie in salt or grit accumulation getting into the interior yet "external" areas of the switch and becoming an abrasive or accelerated wear consideration. Only time and adverse conditions/ applications will show if there is any real call for concern here.

I must qualify my statements as coming from one who has not seen the switch apart so I am not only speculating but unqualified in terms of design and engineering on top of that! At best, a layman's concerns and at worst, misleading and erroneous false alarms! My only justification in even posting is that I found that after leting the Gladius that I have, sit for a couple weeks and after using in the ocean with what I presumed was a sufficient rinse, the switch was initially bound up and a forceful depression of it did free it up fine but not without the sound of "grit grate".

Now with this possible concern brought up, I think it is only fair to point out that even if this switch does have some inherent weaknesses or areas requiring attention and care, consider that which this switch allows you to do!!!

This thread is about comparing the U2 with the Gladius. The U2 has a rotating collar switch which is not accesible or open to dissasembly by the user for cleaning and maintenance.

Both of these lights are sophisticated in terms of control and both require a fair amount of care and precautions when exposed to certain environments in use, IMHO. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif In fairness to the Gladius, I did not take a U2 into the salt water, nor would I! It's not that I don't think the U2 could take it it's just that if any salt water were to get into the collar area, I am not sure I could effectively rinse it out. I believe all is protected and potted within the collar but introducing an abrasive like salt crystals is not a good idea! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif I don't consider any of these lights as dive lights to start with and fresh water exposure is a heck of a lot friendlier than salt water exposure!! Sure they can probably take the abuse but why abuse them?!?!

 

[HarryN]

At the risk of sounding old fashioned = I am just not into software controlled flashlights. I like the features of dimming levels, etc, but my PC experience tells me that software does not necessarily equal reliability.

At this stage, I prefer to loose features and efficiency to avoid software. BTW, I am not computer / software phobic, and have written (simple) code for small and large computers all the way back to the late 70s. Perhaps this is why I am not real trusting of S/W.

 

[BC0311]

I'm interested to see if the strobe is found efficacious over the next year or so.

It certainly makes me queasy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif...even though I pointed away from me.

Britt

 

[Luna]

If you are too worried about software, just remember that this is lowlevel to the point you should just consider the PIC a just being a circuit and not an application.

If you remove the power (unscrew the tailcap???) then maybe it will reset. There is bound to be a fast reset, if not that is imperative.

 

[brightnorm]

deleted

 

[ygbsm]

[ QUOTE ]
McGizmo said:
If you submerge the light and then take it apart, you will find some water in the rear of the tube. This does not mean that it progressed past the O-ring barrier.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, let me note that the Gladius is my favorite light and my EDC. I really really like this light.

In the case I previously noted, the drops of water were found on battery contact spring assembly, the rear of the last-inserted battery and on the inside of the tube adjacent to that battery. This water was found even after I had thoroughly dried the exterior of the light including the area adjacent to the first o-ring prior to disassembly. Also, the weater appeared twice after only rinsing the light off -- I have not immersed the light. I have had an intermittent switching issue that may relate to the presence of this water. I am now trying additional lubricant on the threading after allowing the light to dry out.

 

[mtbkndad]

ygbsm,

Turn it on and go swiming with it. If it dies send it in for a warranty repair.

Waterproof to 50 meters

That comes right off the Night-Ops web site.
Either that or email them and tell them what is happening.
Get them to tell you what they think is causing the problem.
Just don't try fixes and live unsure about a light you paid $250 for. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/xyxgun.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/xyxgun.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/xyxgun.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/xyxgun.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

 

[Solstice]

If only one?...HDS /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

 

[McGizmo]

[ QUOTE ]
..including the area adjacent to the first o-ring prior to disassembly...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are referring to the external O-ring on the battery tube, this O-ring does not keep water from getting into the tail cap chamber. The tailcap chamber floods by design (from around the button). There is an internal O-ring inside the bore of the battery tube and this is the barrier that is designed to protect the batteries and interior circuit. If this O-ring is clean and lubed and the surface of the switch module that seals inside this O-ring is also clean, presumably the light can take the submersion claimed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

The tailcap can retain a fair amount of water I would guess and like a sinus cavity, decide to "leak" at a later moment.

Frankly, I think the submersability of this light is too dependent on conditions of components being just right with little margin for disruption. I am not qualified to claim any expertise whatsoever on this statement but I would not like to see someone damage their light by being too cavalier about it and depending on claims of capability without considering the required conditions to be met.

 

[BC0311]

[ QUOTE ]
The tailcap can retain a fair amount of water I would guess and like a sinus cavity, decide to "leak" at a later moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh heh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

Don is the one who got me to be properly concerned about seal integrity in flashlights.

Before one of my trips where I expose my gear to wet and messy environments I get all of my fiddling out of the way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Since I'm not a soldier or cop, I never have to conduct tactical battery changes so I avoid changing batteries in the field. I try not to open what's meant to remain sealed, under anything other than optimum available conditions.

I have found the biggest threat to the seal integrity of my flashlight is me. Everytime I open it up I am affording an opporunity to bypass the designer's sealing or compromise it.

If you regularly carry equipment like a flashlight into wet and messy environments you have to get all of your fiddling over with and get it in the condition the designer intended and then quit fiddling with it. Leave it alone. Stick it in the sheath or pouch and leave it there until time to use it.

If you buy top notch gear, it will rarely fail you if you adopt this modest discipline.

Now, so I don't come across holier-than-thou, I have an expensive piece of equipment sitting in a box on my table here, that I am having to send back to have it fixed. I fiddled with it. Dadgummit, I fiddled with it and got something "stuck". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif

I first heard the expression "fiddling" from my Dad and it has only been in recent years that I've come to realize the lifetime of wisdom behind his admonition to keep a ring in its (fiddling's) nose.

I watched a country western fiddler once and his fingers and hands moved frenetically, too fast for my eye to follow. He couldn't possibly think a thought for each movement of a finger or hand. Hmmmm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

I've transitioned to a dry lubrication for my flashlight threads and seals, as well as for some other equipment and gear.

One particular time a year ago, I remember this with significant clarity for some reason, I was changing the batteries in my now ancient Surefire M3T. I had removed the O-ring and cleaned the threads and inside of the battery tube thoroughly with 91% alcohol. I had wiped the O-ring and threads off meticulously with a clean, non-fuzzy, cotton shop rag carried along for this specific purpose. I put the O-ring back on properly and then smeared little dabs of lubricant straight from the almost-sterile, applicator's mouth. As I was about to screw the tailcap back to the body I noticed a hair-thin piece of "forest fiber" had wafted down and stuck to the lubed O-ring.

I gingerly removed it and quickly closed up the light. I don't know if that little piece of fiber would be enough to compromise the watertight seal or not, in the conditions of the time. But, you see the potential.

Funny thing, I didn't really need to change the cells, I was just putting fresh ones in just-in-case . For me, just-in-case is often my way of excusing more fiddling. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

Britt

 

[Frenchyled]

I read with a lot of attention the comments of some and the others.. Thank you for these messages relatively rich in information. Has anybody the two flashlights ? I shall visually like seeing these two lamps face to face on the same photography /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[BC0311]

Hey Pascy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

I have the Gladius but not the U2 (yet). In my opinion, this is one of those situations where if you can afford both, do so.

They are both different, interesting and powerful. I look at the beamspot of the Gladius and say, hmmm, where did I first see that? You and me used to bid against each other for them, remember? Ahh, those were the good old days when Custom & Modified B/S/T was family entertainment and somewhere you checked in on constantly.

BTW, I landed the Serial #13 Pelican HA3 M6 3W LED from The Battery Station. Knowing your affection for the number 13, I am holding it in safekeeping in the event you should want to work out some sort of trade.

It's beamspot also begs the question, "where have I seen this before?"

Neither have the beautiful precision and gentle shepherding of every single photon in the intended direction that Don's masterpieces have, but they're definitely both in the "excellent" category in my opinion.

Britt

 

[ygbsm]

mtbkndad:
"Turn it on and go swiming with it. If it dies send it in for a warranty repair."
I'd hate to take undeserved credit for this idea and thus wouldn't feel right unless I let you have the opportunity to be the first to try it with YOUR $250 Gladius! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif I eagerly await your results -- as you note the warranty states "50 meters," Thus, please feel free to take it to the full 50 of the guarantee! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I myself will have to remain content with my "normal" albeit non waranty-testing useage (although my $2500 Breitling says 100m -- I just have to find a way to get it that deep so I can really test the waranty service; the Zeiss binoculars I have say claim are waterproof, so perhaps I should schedule those for submersion also). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Which brings me to McGizmo's: "Frankly, I think the submersability of this light is too dependent on conditions of components being just right with little margin for disruption. I am not qualified to claim any expertise whatsoever on this statement but I would not like to see someone damage their light by being too cavalier about it and depending on claims of capability without considering the required conditions to be met" As with most of McGizmo's posts, my reaction to this is that truer words have never been posted, which is why I have not subjected my Gladius to submersion. I appreciate the info: "If you are referring to the external O-ring on the battery tube, this O-ring does not keep water from getting into the tail cap chamber. The tailcap chamber floods by design (from around the button)" and "The tailcap can retain a fair amount of water I would guess and like a sinus cavity, decide to "leak" at a later moment." I guess my Gladius like its owner occassionally has has "post nasal drip?"

And I thank BC0311 for his story that he "had removed the O-ring and cleaned the threads and inside of the battery tube thoroughly with 91% alcohol. I had wiped the O-ring and threads off meticulously with a clean, non-fuzzy, cotton shop rag carried along for this specific purpose...": does anyone also think this sounds as if there is some amount of OCD ("inside of the battery tube"? and "rag carried along for this specific purpose") included in BC0311's notion of "fiddling." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif I understand this for I have been known to keep various rags for specific purposes with respect to firearms cleaning. I derive an unatural satifaction from a good OCD gun cleaning/fiddling. With the Gladius, however, so far the "fiddling" I have done has amounted to installing the batteries, rinsing and drying the light when dirty, and opening when the intermittent issue occurred and leaving it open for a while (can't find the flashlight lube). The light works fine now. But aside from this, the point is well taken -- I do try to refrain from "fiddling." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/huh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Thanks. and I hope you all have a good Memorial Day.

 

[mtbkndad]

ygbsm,

When I get one, which should be in the fairly near future, I will test it underwater. Remember my suggestion had two parts, one that was definitely cavalier and the other that was a sincere suggestion.

I still think the best people to ask these questions to are the people at
Night-Ops customer service. Their answers and more importantly, what they do to either fix your problem or demonstrate to you it is not a problem will be pertinent to all who currently own or are planning to own a Gladius.
If you get ingored or brushed off by Night-Ops it may make me think twice about my purchase. After all, more important then the written warranty, is the fact that expensive sophisticated lights are only as good as the company behind them.
My gut feeling is this is a good company and you have the chance to do me and other prospective or current Gladius owners a favor by contacting them and letting us know how it goes.

For me the decision regarding the title of this thread has already been decided for reasons stated in another post. I plan on getting the Gladius.
You have an opportunity to demonstrate first hand that the company will be as good about supporting their products as I believe they will. At the same time it will fix the problem with your light. It is a win win situation.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

 

[dougmccoy]

I think I should chip in here and let you guys know about Night-Ops and Ken Good. Over the past few weeks lots of us in the UK who belong to British Blades had bought the Gladius and the the BHI pouch which was specifically designed to carry it.

Unfortunately the pouch didn't work as well as it could have, ie. it was difficult to quickly remove the Gladius from the pouch without it snagging. Not something that obviously would endear the pouch to LEO's and the like!

Anyway, I amongst others, did complain to BHI about the pouch and posted about this issue on the BB forum. Within days Ken Good had responded to our concerns telling us that the pouch was to be withdrawn pending a resolution to the problem and advising us of how to obtain a free exchange from BHI of an alternative pouch which did work.

In my own case I found a quick and simple modification which allows the pouch to work as intended and the problem is not of any major concern. However, I hope this illustrates that Night-Ops and BHI do listen to problems and appear to be ready and willing to act if needs be.

I'm also aware that over in the UK some reports have filtered through about the ceramic coating being less durable than anticipated. I've no doubt that if this proves to be the case Night-Ops will respond by modifying the coatings on revisions to the Gladius.

In any case in my personal experience the first examples of any new product are always going to have some minor teething problems. Nothing which is complicated and has to live up to high expectations usually continues without modifications and refinement! The obvious analogy being the earlier versions of Windows? Cars which are recalled due to design faults, etc, etc.

If any of us was truely expecting no issues we could have bought a Surefire! Oops.......I seem to remember they have had problems with switches and other issues with the U2? (I'm not incidentally Surefire bashing as I've loads of their products and consider them a world class company!) However, I'm simply pointing out that No company can bring a new product to market without some issues occurring!

Doug

 

[mtbkndad]

Doug,
Thank you for the post, my feeling after folowing the Gladius and Ken's posts for some time is that this is a very good company to do business with. That is why I am planning on getting a Gladius. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

 

[McGizmo]

Good post and points Doug! I would like to add an additional comment regarding the switch and water. I took my light swimming a couple times while on Maui. I never went below 25' and the light performed well with no indication of any flooding. However I only rinsed it with fresh water while still together and complete. I held the light, tail up, under the faucet and worked the switch to try to get fresh water into the cavities and displace the salt water. After giving the light a good shake and allowing the surface water to dry away, I took the light apart and wiped off the few beads of water in the rear of the battery tube.

Months later, looking down into the bowels of the switch, I can see some corrosion in the Al. In retrospect, since the switch is designed to flood, I think I should have removed the switch from the light and rinsed it seperately while letting water pour into the front end of it and really do a thorough job of displacing the salt water with fresh water. Even letting the switch sit in a rinse bucket or bowl would probably have been a good idea.

If I have gleaned the function of this light, your ground path does travel through the switch and into the battery tube in a contact area that is "wet" while submerged. If the submersion is in salt water, I see this as an invitation to electrolitic corrosion. The Gladius is not designed as or being sold as a dive light per se. Yes, it can function in such a role but not without potential or possibly accelerated degradation, IMHO. If the light is used on, in or around salt water, I think the switch should be removed afer use and dropped in a glass of distilled or filtered water and allowed to come free from any residual sodium cloride. Fresh water immersion and rain are likely non issues, what so ever.

I stand to be corrected but will sit if the correction becomes too painful! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

 

[TENNlumens]

A brief observation:
On comparing my E2e (Incandescent), and L4 (LED), I have noticed how much more "Contrasty" images are with the E2e, versus the "Softer" spread of the L4. There is also a visual difference of the "Yellow" light, versus the "White/Blue" light to the eye. As much as I like the L4, I believe the Incandescent in just "Beam Quality" still has the upper hand. Especially at a distance. I actually prefer the L4 up close, due to its lesser "Harshness".