Governmental Regulation

[Let It Bleed]

First let me state that I have no idea if eye damage is a real possibility from hand held flashlights. And if it is possible, I have no idea how much power is required to cause it. All I know is some vendors warn of eye damage from the misuse of their products.

As more and more people can afford brighter and brighter lights that are easily carried on one's person, doesn't the odds of some imbecile doing something stupid increase. While I know that lights of immense power are not new, the compact size and relatively low cost is.

Since the power of flashlights seem to continually increase as the size and cost of them continue to decrease, can you envision any possibility that may lead to future government regulation?

I suppose I'm always struck by posters who want a 2000 lumen hand held light in case something goes "boo" while they're walking in the park or whatever. Not only will the recipient of those thousands of lumens be less than pleased and possibly react with hostility at what they consider your aggressive behavior, but you would be liable if eye damage were actually inflicted.

I'm not trying to be a "chicken little" warning about flashlight bans and confiscation. I guess I just hope those who carry "light rays" to walk the dog will do so responsibly. I also realize that most of these high powered lights are created by hobbyists for fun who likewise will match the light they use for the task.

I have no agenda with this nor have I spent a great deal of time thinking about it. It simply crossed my mind while reading another thread and I wondered what ya'll may think.

 

[KD5XB]

This probably belongs in the Cafe, if anywhere.

 

[Let It Bleed]

You're probably right. I know it's not true, but when I think of high power and handheld, I think LED.

 

[mcnair55]

I actually think you have started a good thread and I look forward to other replies,some threads on here are starting to alarm me health wise,thinking of two recent ones.

Wanting a light for a toddler and buying a nurse a light.No way under the sun would I be buying a high powered led for a baby and at the toddler age they still are and buying a light for a nurse without checking with the medical profession first is a risk to far in my book.

I would not want a toddler pointing it at there own eyes let alone mum/dad brothers and sisters pets etc.And a nurse using a light that may and I state only may cause some damage is one step to far,simple check with the nursing profession is all that is needed.

In the UK you cannot buy glues under a certain age because of misuse,blades have to be a certain length and we remember laser pointers etc.

 

[MCFLYFYTER]

I have wondered if anyone has had eye damage caused by a hand held light. Anyone have any documentation? Also, if a light does not get too hot for my two year old son to hold, I let him play with it. I see much more danger in him eating with a fork, than a flash of light to his eyes.

 

[BigBluefish]

A good topic, I think, actually, even if it may belong in the cafe.

I would say, yes, within the next few years here in the US you will probably see calls for regulation of the lumen output of LED flashlights, and then of the spectrum of light emitted.

The first will be due to the perceived use of a "high powered" LED flashlight as a weapon. Someone will try to blind or disorient someone with one as part of a robbery attempt, or will use one in the same manner against an LEO, bad things will happen, and the evil LED flashlight will take the blame.

The second will result from the risks of eye damage (real or imagined) of light emitted in the blue end of the visible spectrum from LEDs. Cree does have warnings about blue light exposure from certain of their LEDs, though you'd have to be an industrial safety specialist or ophthalmologist to make sense of the standards. I'll take it for granted though, that if Cree says there is some risk, there is some risk.

Lasers sold to the public are subject to some pretty stringent regulations regarding power and output, I beiieve. I know even less about lasers than I do about LEDs so someone with more expertise please chime in here. But I see no reason NOT to suspect that regulation of LEDs is coming.

As for kids and LED lights, I'd say be careful. I really don't know what eye damage could be caused by either bright LEDs or blue light. I've researched it a bit and talked to a couple of opthalmologists and optometrists and the answer I have gotten is "we don't know, so don't look at them." I gave my 5 year old an RC-G2. After a bit of thought I decided that wasn't such a good idea and confiscated it and he's now limited to E01s and fauxtons unless he's with me and I'm watching him. He seems to have enough sense not to look into the emitter, but I'm not giving him something that's putting out 50 or more lumens while I'm not monitoring his behavior.

 

[John_Galt]

What gives the government, any government, the right or ability to limit the output of my lights? It's a question I've head to ask. No governing body, no matter what they think, can truly understand each persons individual needs, thoughts, and reactions, no matter what type of regulation they proceed with.


As with many other issues, it all comes down to personal responsibility. It is my personal responsibility to choose equipment that suits my needs and wants, and then to use it responsibly. Yes, there will always be that person who ignores this need for personal responsibility, and thus suffers the consequences, or causes others to suffer.

But does that mean that because of a few minor incidents (that, truthfully, I've never heard of such an incident), that a governing body should assume that it has the best interests of it's people in mind by seizing more power? No, never.

It seems like an irrelevant thing to most people, hey, it's a flashlight, who cares. Well to that, I answer, I care. It is the principal of the matter. It is a group of people willing to give up a personal freedom, and thus a personal responsibility, because of apathy and sub-subservience.


To this I must also add... Why do you care? Yes, I understand that there is a level of empathy exhibited between most humans, but still, why would you wish to limit the choices and freedoms of another? Because of your safety, or the "safety" of an imagined other? What other reasons?
Many manufacturers have these, and other warnings, because their legal department seeks to limit the amount of lawsuits that can be caused by their products. But as with other things, is the lawyer fully educated in all aspects of the product they're trying to protect? Perhaps, but more likely they are trying to limit the amount of future problems they will face based on general information and popular (mis)conceptions.

 

[vasp1]

In the UK you cannot buy glues under a certain age because of misuse,blades have to be a certain length and we remember laser pointers etc.

Mcnair55, I think the two examples you cite (baby, nurse) are just prime examples of lack of forethought.

Unfortunately people will always find a misuse for something. Recent examples in the UK are the use of mephedrone as a stimulant and the use of green lasers to distract pilots, footballers, etc. Perhaps it's just a matter of time before high-powered LEDs are used for nefarious purposes but would any government go so far as to ban them or make them available to over 18s only? I'd like to hear the coherent argument for that case.

 

[kramer5150]

:green::sick2:Governmental Regulation

But yes there should (ideally) be a common courtesy among flashlight users to not shine it in peoples eyes. But to regulate it or mandate some kind of bureaucratic requirement is not an ideal solution.

 

[Roger999]

It would be kind of hard to monitor it since most emitters aren't labeled and most government workers can't tell the difference between a R5 and a cheapo LED in those free key chain lights.

 

[DM51]

This is a topic that may fit in the Cafe, but members are advised to avoid straying into political territory, or it will be closed. Politics belongs in the Underground.

 

[mtbkndad]

Wayne the original owner of Amondotech and I had several talks about this in the past.
He seemed to think most manufacturers were more concerned with litigation then government regulation when it comes to really bright lights.

Those were his thoughts not mine.

I think that the people that like to tell others what to do because they are sure they "know best" will do that in any area they can anytime they feel it is necessary.

I am not saying this is true of all people in government, just that with the right people and the right circumstance the government would be more then happy to let all of us know how many lumens we "need" or they will accept us having.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

 

[Patriot]

I know the topic was started out of concern but frankly the notion makes me :sick2::green:


The old, "It could be bad or it is bad so therefore regulate it" mindset. Perhaps we should federally regulate kindergartners who contest to see who can stare at the sun the longest without blinking, or maybe it should be mandatory to wear sunglasses at all times while outdoors. I suspect the the big bright ball in the sky is responsible for far more vision problems than any flashlight misuse.

Here is the possibly "game end-er" though. List five examples of people in the US alone who can have vision loss positively linked to the misapplication of a flashlight. Suddenly it doesn't seem like much of a problem does it. It's just as difficult to come up with a list of examples for laser misuse even though they're magnitudes more focused that any flashlight, even a Maxabeam.

 

[John_Galt]

I know the topic was started out of concern but frankly the notion makes me :sick2::green:


The old, "It could be bad or it is bad so therefore regulate it" mindset. Perhaps we should federally regulate kindergartners who contest to see who can stare at the sun the longest without blinking, or maybe it should be mandatory to wear sunglasses at all times while outdoors. I suspect the the big bright ball in the sky is responsible for far more vision problems than any flashlight misuse.

Here is the possibly "game end-er" though. List five examples of people in the US alone who can have vision loss positively linked to the misapplication of a flashlight. Suddenly it doesn't seem like much of a problem does it. It's just as difficult to come up with a list of examples for laser misuse even though they're magnitudes more focused that any flashlight, even a Maxabeam.

I'll admit, I did that.

+1 to your post. Excellent points!

 

[PayBack]

Such laws should be passed after the law that limits how hot you can sell your coffee. I could easily use hot coffee in a robbery or to injure someone.

 

[Larbo]

When your no longer able to buy a high powered just build one or get one modded.
They can have my sst-90 when they pry my cold dead fingers from around it.
BTW look what they did with lasers...

 

[Dances with Flashlight]

Governmental regulation over flashlights... good topic for the Cafe since it will surely bring out the beast in many of us. But it is a worthy topic.

The OP starts out on the safety issue - always good sport for the government. We can envision controls over lumens, cp, current, battery chemistry, and Rambo bezels. The Federal Highway Safety Commission should certainly have a role - what could be more dangerous than a six-year old in the backseat of a Chevy with a 200 lumen tactical light sabre? Why stop there? License buyers and issue permits (for a fee) for authorized users of higher output lights who attend specified classes, demonstrate a justifiable need and who can present character witnesses to the local police chief. Set up a new federal agency, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Flashlights and Batteries. Prohibit the manufacture, importation, sale, gift or ownership of any light over 50 lumens or under 10cm in length. The Center for Disease Control could designate such lights as harmful, like Smallpox.

And while we're at it, why assume that only the US can regulate light? Shouldn't Interpol or the UN have oversight? At a minimum, there ought to be some sort of Ten Power Treaty to prohibit international trade in nuclear grade materials, tritium inserts and LiIon batteries. And if we're worried about little bitty flashlights hurting people's eyes, why don't we address the real problem: the SUN!

Please forgive my rant, but issues such as this (along with the wild-eyed comments they generate) do belong here in the CPF. Put another way, when it comes to lights, I value and trust the opinions of CPF'ers more than I value or trust the opinions - or decisions - of any government agency.

 

[DaveTheDude]

All...at the risk of putting this entertaining discussion into perspective, we've had a gazillion lumen emitter hanging in the sky for millenia, without apparent harm to the vision of the general population sufficient to cause the authorities to attempt to regulate the photosensitivity of eyewear manufacturers, or generate cries for mandatory wearing of sunglasses. Let's not give the good people in Congress something else to think about; they already have more on their plates than they can digest.

 

[Let It Bleed]

My point was not to advocate for anything. I also see no reason for this to devolve into a political debate regarding the power and scope of any level of government.

I think it is safe to say that few if any on this forum want any restrictions on this hobby, me included.

The point was simply to step back and consider what could happen with the continual advancement in technology that further increases the brightness of flashlights. Combine this with posts about the desire for 2000+ lumen pocket flashlights and the seemingly cavalier attitude about blasting this level of brightness at any unknown sound, or choose any other relatively similar post. Now assume that eye damage is possible at some level of output.

Based on this I am simply suggesting that there could be future eventualities that bring increased scrutiny to our hobby. We can only use hypotheticals in this discussion as by definition an eventuality is something that has not yet happened.

 

[John_Galt]

Realistically, we here at CPF are an extremely tiny minority compared to the rest of the flashlight users of the world. We like to stay at the bleeding edge of advancements, while most consumers look for what is cheapest, at the expense of everything else.

The average person out there doens;t care about output, nor will they ever. They will look for the cheapest thing that is bright enough to get the job done, even at the risk of personal safety. Your average consumer isn't going to care about that 2000 lumen pocket rocket, and won't want it, unless it can be found at Wal-mart for less than $5.


It's a non-issue, in my mind.



The day they outlaw flashlights, only outlaws will be able to see in the dark.