How much damage can an E2D do?

[Joe Talmadge]

Perhaps the question to start with is, what will the E2D do, that the E2e won't? The E2D will cut someone more readily, but bad guys don't break down and cry just because they're cut, and it's very doubtful to me that the E2D will cause eventual stoppage due to blood flow. It's blunt force trauma that will stop a bad guy, and getting hit with the metal rim of an E2e will probably hurt nearly as much as getting hit with an E2D. So my guess, and it's just a guess, is that the E2D would cause more ripping/cutting/bleeding injury, but probably not be decisively more effective than an E2e in actually stopping an assault.

I personally believe that a pocket stick -- as the E2D is being used as, in this discussion -- is not all that useful for someone not trained in its use. It will be useful as a fistload, and at illuminating threats that are a few feet away. The thing is, if you haven't done at least some training in (say) hammerfist blows, you probably won't do them under the pressure of a real assault, and they'll be fairly telegraphed.

In summary:
- Use as a light for identifying threats or a temporary distraction (if you're lucky, it will make the bad guy squint or blink) tool, and also as a fistload, make carry of the E2e or E2D worth it for self defense.
- While I think the E2D, when used as a pocket stick, will cause more bleeding damage than the E2e, I'm not quite convinced it's more of a fight-stopper than an E2d used similarly.
- I'm not convinced of the utility of a pocket stick at all in self-defense, unless some training in its use is done. I'm not trying to be defeatist, just suggesting that other equalizers be considered in your self defense strategy instead of, or in addition to, a pocket stick.

Joe

 

[jbroker83]

I believe there are certain "soft points" that a flashlight can really deliver the message home. I was just reading an article by Steve Tarani who is the master of the Karambit knife, and he talks about fighting and self-defense with Surefires. He recommends striking in the throat, temple, or eye sockets. Sounds violent, but I guess in a fight for your life, there are no referee's and no rules. Do what it takes to win, cause in a fight for your life, second place usually isn't good enough. Also, I'd think a hard strike from a flashlight to the groin region wouldn't feel very nice either. I think that an e2D in the forehead is going to cut and deliver an impact blow.

 

[Lightraven]

Remember, many violent criminals in the U.S. are going to have weapons--probably guns, but otherwise knives. You'll be critically injured before you can use your E2D.

What I know of impact weapons is that they are surprisingly ineffective. I don't bother carrying my ASP baton anymore. Heavier impact weapons can do damage, but the point is what happens to you at the same time--you are stabbed or shot. Small impact weapons would be useful in only certain limited situations. One female officer friend nailed an unarmed attacker with her aluminum Stinger.

Since just about anybody can carry a folding knife, a far more effective weapon, and pepper spray which allows for non-injurious incapacitation (sometimes) at a distance, why would you opt for a small sharp edged flashlight?

 

[Samuel]

Legalities for edged tools are going to vary from municipality to municipality, state to state.

As the saying goes, pepper spray is about 80% effective against BG's - 100% effective against good guys. YMMV legality wise also...

Flashlights, to borrow a term, are more "sheeple-friendly" than knives... But, along the lines of "doing what it takes", like most people who may choose to carry something for protection, you have to look at all your options and weigh your alternatives - there's that other saying "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

FWIW, I know guys who carry non-departmentally authorized weapons on duty. Their rationale is that, if it ever comes down to needing to use that item, at that moment, policy/legality is the Last thing they would be worried about.

Wrto impact weapons, IMO, most people don't train with them hard enough or realistically enough (should at least be training at the Dog Brothers level). All things being equal, "wood seeks bone, steel seeks flesh". From many of the posts I've read online, too many people choose to carry short, ultralight/airweight batons, have trained to strike less effective areas (e.g. meaty parts), have ignored footwork during training, and/or have attempted to use all of the above against heavily clothed BG's and wonder why it's not working...

Btw, IMO, Steve Tarani is one of the best MA practitioners and instructors out there. And he's a really nice guy to boot.

 

[brightnorm]

A determined aggressor, hopped up on adrenaline/hate/fear will laugh at many of your book-learned blows. There was an account here a while back of a LEO who broke an assailant's nose with his Monadnock but the assailant kept coming and floored the officer. A 3D Mag, illegal in some departments, has a lot more stopping (and potentially killing) power than a baton but most of us don't carry one 24/7.

People speak of being "trained" in a martial art, but that training means little in a sudden violent confrontation unless it is drilled so deep into your bones that your reaction is truly instinctive. Even then, your actions are circumscribed by the particulars of the learned technique and may or not be effective in a given situation.

When I studied Karate many years ago I realized after a few lessons that it would take years before I could use it for effective self defense. About five years ago I enlisted the services of a highly regarded personal defense trainer who gave me private home lessons preparatory to class combat. This wasn't Karate but a amalgam of defense and "street fighting" techniques that would hopefully provide an edge in a real life encounter.

I'm an older guy with injuries from earlier indiscretions along with a bad disc and arthritis, and midway into my second lesson Cesar said he wouldn't teach me anymore and that I should forget about physical techniques because my body was a wreck. He said I should avoid contact if at all possible and use a stand-off technique, the most practical of which was pepper spray. (Guns are illegal in my city). Pepper sprays vary significantly in effectiveness but there is near-unanimous agreement and ample anecdotal evidence that Fox 5,2000,000 SHU is superior to the others. One officer who took pride in his ability to fight through any pepper spray said that after being sprayed with Fox 5.2 there is no way he would ever do it again.

Here is the advice my trainer gave me, which I have enlarged and reinterpreted:

1) Make a point of being alert and aware of your surroundings
2) Respect your instincts; they will often warn you before your mind will
3) Walk tall and purposefully
4) Get the most powerful pepper spray/stream/cone available. (Fox 5.2 was either on the market or about to become available). Buy several inert units and Practice, Practice, Practice!
5) Get Doug Lamb's excellent Tactical Use of Defensive Sprays". Read it at least three times and Practice, Practice, Practice.
6) Imagine different confrontation scenarios, enlist friends as "pseudo attackers", use your inert sprays and Practice, Practice, Practice
7) Start integrating a bright EDC light into the scenario and develop a specific carry/deploy technique, and …..P, P, P!

The basic technique I evolved was simple. When I felt I was in a potential risk environment at night the Fox (protected flip-top version) came out of its right side ready-deploy belt holster and was held inconspicuously, right arm down. Simultaneously my PM6, ASP Taclite or TACM-III was held in my left hand, with arm down. I had practiced this countless times and could bring light and Fox to bear in a second. The daytime routine was the same minus the light. The actual steps were

1 Ready position (bilateral at night)
2 Deploy
3 LOUD shout while stepping FORWARD and SPRAY
4 Duck and run

(Condensed): DEPLOY/SHOUT-STEP-SPRAY/RUN

Will this work in real life? I hope so but there are no guarantees. The advantage of this approach is that it is far better than nothing and has at least a reasonable chance of success. It also minimizes feelings of helplessness often experienced when one is prey among the carnivores. The weakest aspect of this is the lack of backup, whether gun, knife, blunt object or even an E2D. I'm still working on it.

It's critically important to be realistic about your capabilities both physical and mental/emotional and whatever approach you choose must be drilled into you until it is second nature.

I had a small moment of pleasure the other night waiting for a bus. I was suddenly alert to an individual near me and without even thinking found the Fox in my right hand and the (pre-primed) PM6 in my left. I had stepped back and to the side and I was READY. False alarm. The bus came and the night proceeded in an orderly fashion but I felt a little tingle of satisfaction knowing that I had increased my survival potential, even if only a little.

Brightnorm

PS, I think Doug Mccoy's post (among others) is instructive and worth a second read.

 

[Cornkid]

I do not like the idea of a light saving your life. IT DOESNT MAKE SENCE. Someone that is going to mug you WILL have a weapo n and it WILL NOT be a flashlight unless the mugger is an absolute IDIOT. He will have either a gun or a knife... and a flashlight may discourage him... but in a fight... you lost!

-tom

 

[brightnorm]

There has been much discussion here in the past about light as a "force option" with some very interesting input from Ken Goode. I'll try to find it tomorrow but in general, despite some exceptions, you're best off using a light as a light.

Brightnorm

 

[CQB]

For 2005 I must say I've enjoyed THIS thread the MOST so far!!

Lots of excellent points, many different opinions, all make for interesting & enlightening reading.

As to the subject: "How much dmg can an E2D do" here's what i think...

AFAIK the E2d was designed meet a niche demand - this market carries flashlights with them (EDC) and sees the added benefit of carrying something they already carry (ie. flashlight) that can double up as a weapon if needed. A sort of "all in one" tool - a tool for illuminating, and a tool which could be used for defending oneself.

How much damage this piece of kit can do, DEPENDS LARGELY ON THE PERSON WIELDING IT.

In the hands of someone untrained, the E2d may not do much damage at all, and may in fact, as suggested by others, only further aggravate the BG (badguy).

Conversely, I also believe that in the hands of someone trained, the E2d may be able to *take a life* if need be.

The determining factor does not necessarily have anything to do with the E2d at all(!!) but rather has everything to do with the user.

How much damage can a screwdriver do? In the hands of a small child, maybe not much. In the hands of a psycho killer... well, you get the picture.

BTW, I would like to say that I am very impressed with some of the other CPFers who have shown their own level of expertise, experience, and knowledge regarding self defence issues. CPF members pretty much always display integrity and passion in their posts, two competencies I truly appreciate, especially on an online forum. I think self defence is one of those things that not enough people are aware of. They turn a blind eye to the notion of using force to protect oneself - that is, until something actually happens to them.

Sadly, I also have observed other posts where I am reminded that some poeple still do not fully understand the concept for self defence and how it is the RIGHT of every individual to defend oneself. "Reasonable" force is not the same as "unreasonable/excessive" force. Someone does NOT have to be a LEO to be authorized to use "reasonable" force to defend oneself, one's family, or property.

Back to the SF E2d. A very nice piece of kit which combines:
a) an output which is able to temporarily blind an assailant,
and b) features on the flashlight's ends which allow it to double up as an impact weapon if desired.

Please remember that *training* (as with most/all weapons) is a definite MUST-HAVE. Unfortunately, these types of weapons are *not* magic. They require hours & hours of realistic instruction, training, practice, and sweat equity. Do NOT be fooled into thinking that by carrying an E2d you will also possess the knowledge on how to effectively wield it as a weapon if needed.

Much like how a stick or knife does NOT really require training for someone to know how to hurt someone else with it - rather it *does* take training to learn how to use these tools more effectively & efficiently to defend oneself.

Be safe this 2005...
CQB

ps. AFAIK in North America, less than 2% of the population train in any form of martial art or self defence - less than 2%!! Sadly, in our country most people are simply not willing to invest in thsi type of training. Regrettably it usually takes SOMETHING BAD to happen to either themselves or someone close, before they even LOOK INTO this type of trianing. Just something to think about.

 

[CQB]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not like the idea of a light saving your life. IT DOESNT MAKE SENCE. Someone that is going to mug you WILL have a weapo n and it WILL NOT be a flashlight unless the mugger is an absolute IDIOT. He will have either a gun or a knife... and a flashlight may discourage him... but in a fight... you lost!

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe the point you are trying to make is that when it comes down to defending yourself, dont rely SOLELY on a flashlight, since the BG (bad guy) will undoubtedly be armed with something more serious and damaging, right?

Maybe another way to say it is, dont think a flashlight will save your life against a gun... right?

I guess warnings such as yours are actually needed since there ARE people who place all their faith behind something like the E2d to defend against more menacing threats which could be encountered on the street. So I can see the reasoning behind your statement.

So for the most part, I agree. Odds are, a flashlight will not win against a gun. That's reality.

But from the point of view of someone who knows better - that simply carrying an E2d will NOT automatically save my *** vs a knife or gun, I wanted to make these few points.

I ask this: Since it seems only a GUN will have a chance at winning against a gun, should all GGs (good guys) carry guns then? Or since only a knife will have a chance at winning against a knife, should all GGs carry knives then?

It seems your issue with the E2d is that you dont believe anyone has a real chance for defending themselves against a [enter weapon of choice] with a flashlight.

The thing is, being a GG who isnt looking for a fight in the first place, the GG is usually ambushed - attacked by surprise. And when the assault is in full swing, the GG has little-to-no time to react - s/he simply reacts. I can assure you there are people out there that CAN defend themselves quite effectively against a knife or gun WITH a flashlight. ANd there are people out there that CAN defend themselves against these same weapons with their EMPTY HANDS as well.

Would it be argued then that fighting against a knife or gun with just your hands & feet doesnt make sense either? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You might not like the idea of a light saving your life. But if it DOES end up saving your life, would that be such a bad thing? A drug addict tried to assault you with a machete or a needle, or with their own enraged bare hands... and you were able to defend yourself with proper training and an E2d. I am pretty sure you wont say to yourself that you still dont like the idea of a light saving you... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

IMHO, the reailty is an innocent citizen will not always have the opportunity to deploy an equally threatening weapon that is pulled on them by an assailant. If the BG pulls a knife on me, I wont realistically always have the chance to pull a knife on him in return. Likewise with a gun. Or a bat. Or a macheté. Or a needle. Most times I will only have my own MIND & BODY to use to defend against such an attack. That's just the nature of this world. No one ever said it was fair.

Yes a flashlight is NOT the most "effective" self defence weapon available. But IMHO it's not marketed to be the most effective weapon either. It's simply another option for the self defence conscious. If you'd rather carry a gun good for you. Rather carry a blade, go ahead.

If you met someone who carries a screwdriver with them for self defence, would you say that you think he's an idiot b/c a screwdriver isnt the same as a knife or gun? Have you SEEN what someone can do with a screwdriver?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's scary - maybe not the tool itself, but the rage & determination b/h the person wielding it.

Remember, if you lose your weapon as well during a struggle, that same weapon can be used on you too. I'd rather have my E2d turned on me by the BG than my gun. But then again, I live in Canada where we are not permitted to carry firearms. So I guess i am forced to consider alternative use of force weapons other than firearms. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

In relation to this thread, the E2d simply can be a good choice for some, a bad choice for others - it all depends on the user and his/her mindset & training. Dont judge a weapon on its own merits. We have to also consider the merits of the user. And with training & the right "survival" attitude, something as simple as an E2d can actually be quite devastating in the hands of the determined.

 

[AngelEyes]

Is the E2D or any other HA-III flashlights allowed on board airplanes now? I hear even a small innocent nailclipper or multitool gets confiscated these days.

 

[AuroraLite]

Hi, John.

I don't know about E2d on board of US flight(not in check in baggage), but I did carry other form of HA3 flashlight and experienced no problem(on board US flights).

And E2d on any other non-US flying planes are ok, so far.(some airline, btw, still have metal knifes for meals, and will serve meal even under 3 hours flight /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif).

 

[GCalifornianus]

The title of the thread references the E2D, but when I think of dual-use flashlights, the big multi-cell Mag Cs or Ds come to mind more than lights in the E2D class. Of course, the big flashlights aren't the most inconspicuous, and can't be taken at all some places (I took a 6D Mag on airplanes in carry-on baggage 20 years ago, usually with no trouble, but that was a different environment; there's no way that would work today). Even where they could be taken, using one of them defensively wouldn't necessarily be much easier than using an E2D, with probably much worse consequences if it was taken away from you.

 

[jbroker83]

I just flew on a flight and had a PT Rage, Blast, and a SureFire G2Z Combat Light. No problems at all. It was re-assuring knowing that I had light in case of an emergency. I feel very comfortable carrying my E2D in the inside pocket of my leather jacket. I also have other options at my disposal for self-defense, but the E2D is small, unobtrusive for the most part, and very lightweight. Nobody even knows I have it in my pocket.