I feel like weve reached peak LED for pocket torches. Batt/LED efficiency maxed out.

[hiuintahs]

......In 1970 did anyone think there would ever be a car that got 40+mpg? Or that we could make cars run on a mix composed of a majority of ethanol?.......

I don't think cars (transportation in general) have advanced very fast considering how many years they have been around and considering how fast other technologies such as computers and the microprocessor have advanced. I think advancement in cars has mostly been because of advancement in electronics.

I still love and use my 1983 Heathkit AR1650 125W stereo receiver though. I remember the stereo craze and harmonic distortion was getting smaller and smaller to the point that no one could tell the difference nor did anyone want to pay a lot more for it.

There is the possibility that LED technology advancements could level off..............but then again, the biggest advancements over the past couple of decades seem to be in electronics.

 

[Gryffin]

I think the OP has got a point, but it's not a "peak" we've reached, so much as a "plateau."

It wasn't that long ago that the state-of-the-art Luxeon 1's and 3's LEDs couldn't handle the current you could get outta a pair of Eneloops, much less a single lithium ion. Then we got Crees that could handle an amp and a half, and were small enough to focus well in a good reflector.

But the amount of light per square mm we can get out of that technology has definitely leveled off. To get brighter, you need a bigger LED; SST-50/90, XM-L, lotsa lumens, but the die size makes it difficult to get much throw out of 'em in a pocket-sized light; and since they aren't much more electrically efficient than the older LEDs, more output also means more heat to dissipate. Until somebody advances the state-of-the-art in luminous density and efficiency, that's not gonna change.

On the other hand, those big dies can handle — demand, even — more power than current lithium ion battery technology can deliver in a pocket-sized form factor. Sure, there are IMR cells that can deliver the current, but then runtimes become impractically short. Capacitor technology is just taking off, but capacity is even worse, and cost isn't competitive. So until someone advances the state-of-the-art in battery technology, that's not gonna change, either.

Then there's the UI problem: the vast majority of lights use a single button to power on/off (and most of those are#$%^& reverse clicky, too), as well as change modes. Some use a secondary mode control: a second button, a control ring, a head-twist. None of these options seem to satisfy all needs: head-twisters require two hands; single-button UIs that use multiple clicks to change levels can't be used for signalling, and aren't suitable for military/police tactical use; the combination of a tailcap switch, and a control ring or secondary button at the head, requires changing grips. Years of experimenting with alternate UIs, but still no ideal solution, so we're all fumbling around with inconsistent UIs and assorted buttons and rings and such. But unlike the luminous density, efficiency and battery technology problems, I think this one can be solved, since it doesn't require the same sort of technological leap.

 

[SDM44]

Batteries? psssht!

I'm waiting for a nuclear-cell powered flashlight that's the size of my iTP A3 and will emit 1000x the amount of light it current does now, throw as far as a laser.... all while staying cold in your hands with no heat, because new metals will be made to conduct heat better.

 

[EZO]

A battery and some bulb technology doesn't seem to be benefiting by leaps-and-bounds as such under Moore's Law.

Regarding "bulb technology", specifically LEDs, they are not governed by Moore's Law, but rather Haitz's Law. Haitz's Law states that, "every decade, the cost per lumen (unit of useful light emitted) falls by a factor of 10, and the amount of light generated per LED package increases by a factor of 20, for a given wavelength (color) of light." It is considered the LED counterpart to Moore's law, which states that the number of transistors in a given integrated circuit doubles every 18 to 24 months.

Both Moore's Law and Haitz's Law describe trends and as such they are thought to have finite limits.....at some point. So far, with both integrated circuits as well as light emitting diodes, every time an end to the trend has been forecast a new advance comes into play and the technology marches forward.

Dr. Roland Haitz feels that peak LED efficiency will likely be achieved sooner than later but this does not preclude other advances in solid state lighting. For example, this may come in the form of ancillary technologies such as nanocomposite heat sinking materials like CarbAL and new battery technologies.

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Batteries? psssht!

I'm waiting for a nuclear-cell powered flashlight that's the size of my iTP A3 and will emit 1000x the amount of light it current does now, throw as far as a laser.... all while staying cold in your hands with no heat, because new metals will be made to conduct heat better.

For what it's worth, a modern RTG (Radio-Thermoelectric generator) produces around 3 W/kg of TEG device. It's basically a plutonium pellet with some mechanism to turn a heat flow across a temperature difference into energy. An 18650 weighs what, 40 grams? So 75mW for the next decade or two, if your RTG is a bit heavier than an 18650. Of course, it's a use-it-or-lose-it thing, since the Pu decays no matter what. This probably doesn't address the need for reasonable shielding, since RTG figures are usually given for space probes with the RTG on a long stick away from important things.

PS: They don't scale down well.

 

[davyro]

Batteries will become better,Led's will become more efficient & versatile(be able to become multi-coloured)that's just an example,the materials used will get better.Basically everything can be improved & it will happen.By the way i think your opinion is
very negative considering how far lights have advanced in recent years.

 

[fyrstormer]

In 1970 did anyone think there would ever be a car that got 40+mpg? Or that we could make cars run on a mix composed of a majority of ethanol?

Considering all American automakers started out building electric cars or ethanol-powered cars before gasoline was discovered...no, in 1970 probably nobody thought that would happen, but that's because they all forgot it had already happened.

 

[EZO]

Then there's the UI problem: the vast majority of lights use a single button to power on/off (and most of those are#$%^& reverse clicky, too), as well as change modes. Some use a secondary mode control: a second button, a control ring, a head-twist. None of these options seem to satisfy all needs: head-twisters require two hands; single-button UIs that use multiple clicks to change levels can't be used for signalling, and aren't suitable for military/police tactical use; the combination of a tailcap switch, and a control ring or secondary button at the head, requires changing grips. Years of experimenting with alternate UIs, but still no ideal solution, so we're all fumbling around with inconsistent UIs and assorted buttons and rings and such. But unlike the luminous density, efficiency and battery technology problems, I think this one can be solved, since it doesn't require the same sort of technological leap.

I think you bring up some very good points about flashlight UI issues. Today's switches are still pretty old school when it comes right down to it even if the lights have more functions than they had years ago. This is something I've given some previous thought to and I would love to see a thumb operated miniature "joy stick"/clicky hybrid. A switch like this could be used as a side switch on the flashlight tube or a tail cap and depending on the design of the circuitry could have a wide range of control over the light, including a secure lock out. My inspiration for a switch like this would be something akin to the cursor/trackpad button (also known as a pointing stick or isometric joystick) currently built into the keyboards of the Lenovo ThinkPads.

 

[Gryffin]

I think you bring up some very good points about flashlight UI issues. Today's switches are still pretty old school when it comes right down to it even if the lights have more functions than they had years ago.

Remember how fun it was to have to turn our reverse clickies off and on again to switch from HI to a (resistored) LO? Fun times... We put up with it because even that was an improvement over having just ON and OFF.

Now we expect at least three fully current-controlled levels (or preferably, infinitely variable), momentary on, strobe, SOS... That's a LOT to ask of a single switch, isn't it? Even with programmable electronic drivers, it's a bear.

This is something I've given some previous thought to and I would love to see a thumb operated miniature "joy stick"/clicky hybrid. A switch like this could be used as a side switch on the flashlight tube or a tail cap and depending on the design of the circuitry could have a wide range of control over the light, including a secure lock out. My inspiration for a switch like this would be something akin to the cursor/trackpad button (also known as a pointing stick or isometric joystick) currently built into the keyboards of the Lenovo ThinkPads.

Interesting... if I understand you right, that would give you three degrees of control in one switch: click for on/off, plus left<=>right (mode, maybe?), plus fwd<=>back (brightness?). I think you may be onto something!

I've been giving a lot of thought to these UI issues lately... might hafta start a new post elsewhere to discuss, don't wanna derail this thread any more than I have.

 

[fyrstormer]

I can't imagine trying to fool around with a multi-directional pressure-sensitive control while doing anything more complex than walking and chewing gum. Definitely not while changing a tire on a dark and stormy night.

To continue my thesis on physical limitations from earlier, there are also physical limitations to human dexterity, especially in adverse conditions where a tool such as a flashlight would actually be useful instead of merely entertaining. Clicky interfaces use a control mechanism that translates along a single axis, and twisty interfaces use a control mechanism that rotates along a single axis. Those are easy to use. Each additional axis of movement makes the interface an order of magnitude more complex, which also makes it harder to use when you don't have the luxury of stable footing, dry hands, undivided attention, zombie-free surroundings, etc.

I could see a straight-line touch-sensitive dimmer control being useful, and it could be programmed similar to some Morse-Code clicky interfaces to provide momentary function when the control surface is touched-and-held or latching function when the control surface is tapped for a split-second. Adding multiple axes of movement would be maddening to use when you can't see what you're doing, which is usually the case when you need a flashlight.

 

[EZO]

I can't imagine trying to fool around with a multi-directional pressure-sensitive control while doing anything more complex than walking and chewing gum. Definitely not while changing a tire on a dark and stormy night.

As with any multi-mode flashlight you wouldn't want to monkey around with different settings when you are changing a tire or engaging in any other activity that demands focus and attention. In any event, the design I posit here still would include the basic press for on / press for off clicky function yet would still provide easy access to other controls and would be intuitive.

And this is the 21st century where engaging with something like an iPod touch/click wheel is second nature to many people who are going the extra step of navigating menus. (And probably while chewing gum and snowboarding on a dark and stormy night.)

 

[cland72]

Considering all American automakers started out building electric cars or ethanol-powered cars before gasoline was discovered...no, in 1970 probably nobody thought that would happen, but that's because they all forgot it had already happened.

:thumbsup:

 

[fyrstormer]

As with any multi-mode flashlight you wouldn't want to monkey around with different settings when you are changing a tire or engaging in any other activity that demands focus and attention. In any event, the design I posit here still would include the basic press for on / press for off clicky function yet would still provide easy access to other controls and would be intuitive.

And this is the 21st century where engaging with something like an iPod touch/click wheel is second nature to many people who are going the extra step of navigating menus. (And probably while chewing gum and snowboarding on a dark and stormy night.)

There is a distinct difference between operating a mechanical control ring that is restricted from moving except in the intended direction, vs. operating a touch-sensitive control that can't hold on to your fingertip to keep it from sliding off the touch-sensitive surface.

Anyway, consider whether you would want something like that to be exposed to rain and road grime while you're changing that tire. It will be all over your hands and it will get on the light too. Touch-sensitive surfaces have to be kept clean or they malfunction.

 

[ledmitter]

I'm sure in the late 1800's there were some people who thought we'd reached the pinnacle of medical care. Look at how much we've advanced in just the last 20 years.

In 1970 did anyone think there would ever be a car that got 40+mpg? Or that we could make cars run on a mix composed of a majority of ethanol?

Personally I'm hoping for higher capacity batteries -- if I could get a 17670 with 10,000 mah capacity my M61LL would run for 636 hours... Think how great that would be.

I'm surprised we aren't seeing 18340's already. (Thicker versions of the 16340 aka RCR123). That's a testiment to the lack of innovation where there's a viable need. You'd think an extra 1000mAh could be achieved with this form factor.

Lithium flashlights these days pidgeon hold themselves to old school battery types.

 

[fyrstormer]

We already have those, except they're a millimeter longer than you expect. They're called 18350's. I haven't heard of any situations where the extra millimeter of length has gotten in the way of a proper fit; usually it's the diameter that causes incompatibility issues.

Anyway, you can load 2x18350 into a 1x18650 light, get the same total power at twice the voltage, and no battery rattles. There you go.

 

[ledmitter]

We already have those, except they're a millimeter longer than you expect. They're called 18350's. I haven't heard of any situations where the extra millimeter of length has gotten in the way of a proper fit; usually it's the diameter that causes incompatibility issues.

Anyway, you can load 2x18350 into a 1x18650 light, get the same total power at twice the voltage, and no battery rattles. There you go.

Just checked out the AW 18350's at lighthound. They're IMR unprotected. =\ But thanks for the heads up.

And out of stock.

 

[EZO]

There is a distinct difference between operating a mechanical control ring that is restricted from moving except in the intended direction, vs. operating a touch-sensitive control that can't hold on to your fingertip to keep it from sliding off the touch-sensitive surface.

Anyway, consider whether you would want something like that to be exposed to rain and road grime while you're changing that tire. It will be all over your hands and it will get on the light too. Touch-sensitive surfaces have to be kept clean or they malfunction.

First of all, this has never been described as a "touch sensitive" surface. I mention the iPod only as an example of a somewhat complex thumb operated UI. It sounds like you've never used the keyboard "pointing stick" device I am referring to and that is in the photo I provided. Rather than being touch sensitive it reacts to applied force using strain gauges and is a mechanical joystick with whatever resistive force, click stops and detents you'd want to design into it. Secondly, some of the existing designs already in use as isometric joysticks bear a remarkable resemblance to the current Zebralight switch caps as shown below and could be as waterproof and free of dust intrusion as any other rubber switch cap on any flashlight and operated just as securely and easily.

fystomer, this is just an idea for a more modern switch concept in connection with the overall topic of advancing the state of the art . Please don't derail the thread into an argument about the finer points of how this switch would function or why you think it's such a bad idea. Gryffin's right, perhaps this would be best taken up in it's own thread.

 

[ledmitter]

First of all, this has never been described as a "touch sensitive" surface. I mention the iPod only as an example of a somewhat complex thumb operated UI. It sounds like you've never used the keyboard "pointing stick" device I am referring to and that is in the photo I provided. Rather than being touch sensitive it reacts to applied force using strain gauges and is a mechanical joystick with whatever resistive force, click stops and detents you'd want to design into it. Secondly, some of the existing designs already in use as isometric joysticks bear a remarkable resemblance to the current Zebralight switch caps as shown below and could be as waterproof and free of dust intrusion as any other rubber mounted switch on any flashlight and operated just as securely and easily.

fystomer, this is just an idea for a more modern switch concept in connection with the overall topic of advancing the state of the art . Please don't derail the thread into an argument about the finer points of how this switch would function or why you think it's such a bad idea. Gryffin's right, perhaps this would be best taken up in it's own thread.

Imagine a "flashlight stylus" that can increase or decrease brightness by sliding it forward or backward.....

That might actually be progress.

 

[cave dave]

I've read about a dozen tech articles where they have doubled the capacity of LiIon cells in a lab environment by various different methods. I expect it will take about 3 yrs for that to make it to the marketplace though.

example:
http://cleantechnica.com/2011/05/26/li-ion-batteries-with-nearly-double-the-usual-energy-density/

 

[zenbeam]

In my newbie layman's terms here's what I do and don't want in flashlight advancement (not sure of the how's and maybe it would involve technology that hasn't been created or considered yet)-

I don't want batteries with higher capacities. I want safer flashlights that are so efficient a single AA eneloop could produce 1000 lumens and last 100 hours easily while doing so; and all the while generating virtually no heat.

And like HDTV's where the human eye can essentially no longer distinguish detail past 1080p resolution - hence the direction of increasing Hz or pushing 3D, etc .... isn't there a point where 1,200 lumens can illuminate no more than what the eye perceives with 700 lumens let's say (the numbers are just for the example)? And at what point is throw too far for us to make out any detail of what's being illuminated anyway... say at 1,400 meters? As such, then the next steps in innovation almost have to lead toward safety and efficiency, if not convenience and simplicity along the way. Perhaps? :shrug: