I feel like weve reached peak LED for pocket torches. Batt/LED efficiency maxed out.

[fyrstormer]

If you really want high capacity, there's still no beating 18650s, which have a total capacity of 11.1 watt-hours, compared to 8.8 watt-hours from a pair of 18350s. Voltage can be a problem if your lights can't handle input down to 2.7V though.

 

[Gryffin]

If you really want high capacity, there's still no beating 18650s, which have a total capacity of 11.1 watt-hours, compared to 8.8 watt-hours from a pair of 18350s.

Lots of capacity, yes. But a single one doesn't seem to be able to deliver enough current to run an XM-L properly; maybe it's a limitation of available driver ICs, but it seems every XM-L light that can use a single 18650 or two CR/RCR cells runs in direct drive on the single 18650, with no regulation.

 

[kaichu dento]

That's a given.

There will always be improvements. Human design is downright amazing. Will there be drastic changes within a small timeline for flashlights? Probably not. But improvements always happen.

This too is a given.

 

[kaichu dento]

I think you bring up some very good points about flashlight UI issues. Today's switches are still pretty old school when it comes right down to it even if the lights have more functions than they had years ago. This is something I've given some previous thought to and I would love to see a thumb operated miniature "joy stick"/clicky hybrid. A switch like this could be used as a side switch on the flashlight tube or a tail cap and depending on the design of the circuitry could have a wide range of control over the light, including a secure lock out. My inspiration for a switch like this would be something akin to the cursor/trackpad button (also known as a pointing stick or isometric joystick) currently built into the keyboards of the Lenovo ThinkPads.

I can't imagine trying to fool around with a multi-directional pressure-sensitive control while doing anything more complex than walking and chewing gum. Definitely not while changing a tire on a dark and stormy night.

To continue my thesis on physical limitations from earlier, there are also physical limitations to human dexterity, especially in adverse conditions where a tool such as a flashlight would actually be useful instead of merely entertaining. Clicky interfaces use a control mechanism that translates along a single axis, and twisty interfaces use a control mechanism that rotates along a single axis. Those are easy to use. Each additional axis of movement makes the interface an order of magnitude more complex, which also makes it harder to use when you don't have the luxury of stable footing, dry hands, undivided attention, zombie-free surroundings, etc.

I could see a straight-line touch-sensitive dimmer control being useful, and it could be programmed similar to some Morse-Code clicky interfaces to provide momentary function when the control surface is touched-and-held or latching function when the control surface is tapped for a split-second. Adding multiple axes of movement would be maddening to use when you can't see what you're doing, which is usually the case when you need a flashlight.

I'd love to have the money to offer as a prize for whomever could bring these ideas to fruition - both of them! :thumbsup:

 

[fyrstormer]

I dunno, kaichu. Both the joystick and the touch-slider require the light to be held in a certain orientation to be usable. Tailcap-clicky switches and control-ring/twisty switches work just fine even if you don't have the light "right-side-up". That's why they're so popular, because they require the least fuss.

 

[saabluster]

I think you bring up some very good points about flashlight UI issues. Today's switches are still pretty old school when it comes right down to it even if the lights have more functions than they had years ago. This is something I've given some previous thought to and I would love to see a thumb operated miniature "joy stick"/clicky hybrid. A switch like this could be used as a side switch on the flashlight tube or a tail cap and depending on the design of the circuitry could have a wide range of control over the light, including a secure lock out. My inspiration for a switch like this would be something akin to the cursor/trackpad button (also known as a pointing stick or isometric joystick) currently built into the keyboards of the Lenovo ThinkPads.

Well your in luck sir. Surefire has a joystick like switch on one of their new lights. Check out the 2012 catalog.

 

[kaichu dento]

I dunno, kaichu. Both the joystick and the touch-slider require the light to be held in a certain orientation to be usable. Tailcap-clicky switches and control-ring/twisty switches work just fine even if you don't have the light "right-side-up". That's why they're so popular, because they require the least fuss.

I agree completely with the idea of the rear location being the easiest to find, but as the SC-series from ZL show, many are willing to adjust to a new UI if it's worth the cost of admission.

I'm definitely interested in seeing what new ideas can be brought to fruition and, oh, Surefire is interested too!

Well your in luck sir. Surefire has a joystick like switch on one of their new lights. Check out the 2012 catalog.

Anyone got one yet?

 

[EZO]

I dunno, kaichu. Both the joystick and the touch-slider require the light to be held in a certain orientation to be usable. Tailcap-clicky switches and control-ring/twisty switches work just fine even if you don't have the light "right-side-up". That's why they're so popular, because they require the least fuss.

fyrstormer, It really seems as if you haven't read my original post about this very carefully. That post, #28, which has been re-posted by others several times now, and wherein I said, " I would love to see a thumb operated miniature "joy stick/clicky hybrid". I reiterated that assertion in post #31 where I stated, "In any event, the design I posit here still would include the basic press for on / press for off clicky function yet would still provide easy access to other controls and would be intuitive."

I'm puzzled by your repeated assertion that the design I propose would be so unworkable unless it were held in a particular position as if I never mentioned from the beginning that it would employ a standard clicky function. (a forward clicky, of course ) Why would you repeatedly ignore this fact in making your argument? Also, you seem to be making hard assumptions about how the joystick functionality would be implemented without thinking or using your imagination about the potential interesting possibilities for a multi-tiered - click/joystick UI.

And as kaichu points out, the Zebralight UI is similar in complexity and this would be no more or less difficult to master. And of course, with the side mounted, thumb operated position, the orientation would be already known to the operator - although my concept would not necessarily be dependent on axis-orientation.

 

[EZO]

Well your in luck sir. Surefire has a joystick like switch on one of their new lights. Check out the 2012 catalog.

Thanks saabluster, that's very interesting.
The design in their catalog for a joystick-like switch is very similar to what I have envisioned although they refer to it as a 4 function switch which is described a bit differently than my concept for functionality which might also include clockwise and counter-clockwise joystick motion for low-to-high and high-to-low. I found their patent for this switch online and it is interesting to me that it does basically encompass my concept of a joystick/clicky and they use the term "joystick" in the description". The patent title is, "LIGHTING DEVICE WITH MULTI-POSITION JOYSTICK". They refer to it as a "tailcap".

"The tailcap assembly includes a multi-position joystick adapted to pivot relative to the body in response to lateral pressure and move vertically relative to the body in response to vertical pressure. The tailcap assembly also includes switches adapted to provide signals to the lighting control circuitry in response to pivot movement and vertical movement of the joystick. The lighting control circuitry is adapted to operate the light source in response to the signals."

Interestingly, they are also offering a light, the "ISIS/AEGIS" with a touch sensitive tail cap and an included rechargeable Li-Ion. I've gotta' say, some of Surefire's new offerings are absolutely awesome and as cutting edge as it gets.

 

[ev13wt]

Just don't drop that light on its end.

Sounds cool though. Just way to complicated for easy operation methinks.

 

[EZO]

Just don't drop that light on its end.

Sounds cool though. Just way to complicated for easy operation methinks.

I don't see why this switch as it appears in the Surefire photo would be any more vulnerable to being dropped on its end than any other protruding rubber tailbooted switch. As has been mentioned, a UI like this wouldn't be any more complicated than the Zebralight SC lights, perhaps less so.

 

[fyrstormer]

fyrstormer, It really seems as if you haven't read my original post about this very carefully. That post, #28, which has been re-posted by others several times now, and wherein I said, " I would love to see a thumb operated miniature "joy stick/clicky hybrid". I reiterated that assertion in post #31 where I stated, "In any event, the design I posit here still would include the basic press for on / press for off clicky function yet would still provide easy access to other controls and would be intuitive."

I'm puzzled by your repeated assertion that the design I propose would be so unworkable unless it were held in a particular position as if I never mentioned from the beginning that it would employ a standard clicky function. (a forward clicky, of course ) Why would you repeatedly ignore this fact in making your argument? Also, you seem to be making hard assumptions about how the joystick functionality would be implemented without thinking or using your imagination about the potential interesting possibilities for a multi-tiered - click/joystick UI.

And as kaichu points out, the Zebralight UI is similar in complexity and this would be no more or less difficult to master. And of course, with the side mounted, thumb operated position, the orientation would be already known to the operator - although my concept would not necessarily be dependent on axis-orientation.

I read your post and I understand that the joystick would include a clicky-switch, much like a clickable thumbstick on a video game controller. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your post. It is nearly impossible to click a thumbstick without tilting it a little bit. Perhaps the effect of that tiny bit of tilting would be negligible, but I prefer robust interfaces where the operation of one control cannot possibly interfere with the operation of another control. That is also why I prefer to use a trackball instead of a mouse, because I can bump a trackball all I want without changing the position of the cursor. Things like that matter when doing precision work like editing images pixel-by-pixel.

So to answer your question, the reason I don't like the thumbstick idea is because my imagined use-cases are more demanding than yours are. As an engineer I'm used to thinking about things in terms of whether they will work right when everything else is going wrong at once.

 

[EZO]

I read your post and I understand that the joystick would include a clicky-switch, much like a clickable thumbstick on a video game controller. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your post. It is nearly impossible to click a thumbstick without tilting it a little bit. Perhaps the effect of that tiny bit of tilting would be negligible, but I prefer robust interfaces where the operation of one control cannot possibly interfere with the operation of another control. That is also why I prefer to use a trackball instead of a mouse, because I can bump a trackball all I want without changing the position of the cursor. Things like that matter when doing precision work like editing images pixel-by-pixel.

So to answer your question, the reason I don't like the thumbstick idea is because my imagined use-cases are more demanding than yours are. As an engineer I'm used to thinking about things in terms of whether they will work right when everything else is going wrong at once.

Fair enough fyrstormer, I can certainly understand your perspective. You know, your statment regarding: "thinking about things in terms of whether they will work right when everything else is going wrong at once" is an interesting one in light of the fact that Surefire is the company that has brought this concept to the marketplace considering their long term, well known design philosophy in this regard and their reputation for making products that people stake their lives on. I think if a clicky/joystick tailswitch were to be introduced by just about any other manufacturer it would be much easier to dismiss this idea as just a gimmick.

 

[ev13wt]

I don't see why this switch as it appears in the Surefire photo would be any more vulnerable to being dropped on its end than any other protruding rubber tailbooted switch. As has been mentioned, a UI like this wouldn't be any more complicated than the Zebralight SC lights, perhaps less so.

Look at all the small parts in there, more part to fail that standard clicky. An unprotected protuding switch is not very sane in any case, but I guess surefire doesn't agree with me.

Possibly you need to move the joystick into a certain direction for some seconds before it switches anything, but still, I think it really complicates things.

 

[EZO]

ev13wt, like I said in my previous post #73, This is a Surefire product! For anyone who is familiar with their products nothing else needs to be said. Also, consider that the diagrams I posted are from their patent illustrations. Their final product runs may be quite different in number of parts or beefiness thereof while still adhering to the patent specifications. I'll say it again, it's a Surefire! That's all anybody needs to know, really, if you are questioning the device's reliability and durability.

 

[ev13wt]

EZO, even the best can sometimes bring something to market that will fade away or will need some revisions. I guess if SF brings it to market it will be quite rugged.

i hope I get a chance to fondle one and perform some drop tests. Wonder what a replacement would cost? Probably more than a simple clicky.

:beer:

 

[BobBarker]

I'm just a little old school... I like a simple, hand it to anyone to use type interface. I don't want to have to memorize anything or perform a flurry of clicks to change or program anything.
I doubt that reliability will be an issue. I've had good quality joy-sticks that have lasted for over a decade and don't have the slightest problem (would guess something on the order of 4 million movements along the horizontal an vertical axis. Plus it being surefire, they probably have some tricks up their collective sleeves (like a ball type joint that would prevent the button from being pushed to the point of causing damage.
I guess my biggest problem has been noted above. this will be orientation based you could use some kind of solid state inclinometer to detect orentation... but it would have to work better than the mag light xl100 (that doesn't really work). And if it was going to have a side switch... then why not go with the much more intuitive stepless magnetic control ring ? It would be easy enough to add a "true" off position with a simple reed switch to disconnect the batteries from the driver when in the off position using the same magnet in the control ring. That would be my ideal light control... Or just use something like the RRT-0 without the secondary standby mode. I can set the brightness to what I want and it would stay there. Or I could adjust the brightness without even turning it on... so If I only needed a little light I wouldn't blind myself with the light coming on full blast from the last time it was used...
I guess it might just be me... But i don't really like programmable flashlights or 700+ lumen lights that only offer a handful of settings. They always end up on the low end with something like jetbeams rrt-3 xml that is set up 5-180-400-620-850-1200-1950 lumen settings. The more light the bigger the output change needs to be to be noticeable. But I can think of plenty of times working where I would need more than 5 lumen but WAY less than 180...
So to me, the ability to just dial in exactly what I want, without having to toggle through a bunch of modes or hold down a button to vary the output seems like the ideal. But I guess I should mention that I don't really consider one of the continuously variable lights (or any light with more than 2-3 modes truly suitable for a tactical (or weapon) light. Those types of lights really are a specialized design requiring as simple an interface as possible. The most complicated I would consider usable would be something like a "recon" mode that would be enough to flood a room with relatively bright light... and then double click your pressure pad (or make it dual pressure sensitive) to activate the strobe. Any more complicated than that and it becomes more of a hindrance than anything.
That is just my take on things... But the sales longevity of Surfire's new light will really be the only way to tell.
One last note before I descend from my soap box... I don't really see the point of a strobing light unless you are carrying a firearm. The only reason that they started making strobing lights is that it makes it harder to draw a bead on someone because the human eye cant pinpoint the actual location of the light, making it harder to effectively return fire. If you are only carrying a light then you wouldn't want it strobing... it could in fact INCREASE your chances of being hit. If you hold the light to your side with an outstretched arm they will fire at that instead of firing erratically around you.
And if you are carrying a light to use tactically... you are again in the "as simple as possible" U.I. category again.

Sorry for the rant. And just in case... No offense was intended at all (just in case someone takes it that way) Everyone has their own wants and needs... So no ones opinion is any more or less valuable than anyone else.

Bob