Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in prison

[jayflash]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

Unless there is new data, past studies have shown that the constant legal appeals from death row inmates is where the added expense originates. I'll agree that the number of appeals needs to be limited but at this time that isn't the case. The cost of maintaining death row prisoners has been circulated for decades; I'm surprised this info is unknown to some. Perhaps newer info on this subject exists that I'm not aware of.

15 years ago the sister of a, current, state representative from my county, was murdered. Her family, and politician brother, continues to oppose the death penalty. They are not afraid of an escape.

 

[Bravo25]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

[ QUOTE ]
jayflash said:
The death penalty has been proven NOT to be a deterrent and is more costly than life without parole. If there is newer info refuting that, please point out the latest, accepted, findings.

If imprisonment was properly executed, more penalty, and therefore deterrent, would be extracted by NOT executing the guilty.

Women, regularly, spontaneously abort, and many never knew they were pregnant. Others miscarry later. Bravo, there is no guarantee that unviable cells will grow into a healthy baby or not harm the mother. I agree with your quote - restricting a woman's liberty and freedom of choice will not make us safe; it only gives men power over them. BTW, I favor adoption, counseling, and good birth control to abortion. I feel that men have no say in that matter.

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Ok one at a time
First http://www.doc.state.nc.us/DOP/cost/cost2001.htm
You will notice that if the cost of supporting a maximum security inmate is carried out to only 50 years it amounts to 1,536,832.50. That was 2000/2001. Most death penalty cases cost a little over a million. So that arguement holds no water. And neither does this study take into account the loss, and the cost to the victims!

Second I am still resaearching the rise, or fall (to be fair) of capital crimes when the death penalty was abolished. I will post results here. Although I can fairly well predict the outcome of that study already.

Third Yes women spontaneously abort, and some people catch the flu, and die. A healty, normal woman will produce a child in more than a majority of the cases. Thus if no outside interfence, the object of pregenacy is to produce a living, breathing, viable child, and in the majority of cases must be stopped arificially, we have no choice but to classify those "clump of cells" as LIFE! Abort = Terminate, and by this reasoning alone just assigning it a name of "pregnacy" to aleeve us of the repulsive thought of aborting a "child" does not justify it.

Fourth to say that a "man" has no say in the matter is just about as ludicrous. A woman sure didn't pregnant on her own. Even implantation requires a seed. Both (as it takes two) should share the responsabilty, and the decision. This arguement only serves to allow society to have uninhibited sex without considering the consequenses. Man and woman were to put together by design (as we are talking pregnacy we'll just accept a hetrosexual relationship). One thinks logically while one thinks emotionally. A decision of this magnitude should have both sides presented.

 

[jayflash]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

Bravo, this has gotten way off track with regard to treatment of prisoners. It's my fault for questioning why some approve of the death penalty but desire control over a woman's right of reproductive choice. Let's start a different post if this hot-button issue is important enough.

My feeling is that when men suffer nine months of pregnancy, the attendant physiological and emotional problems, nursing, and the majority of childcare, THEN they can dictate the outcome of unwanted pregnancies. I maintain that this is a control issue that some men don't recognize within themselves.

 

[d'mo]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

During my last trip to the Philippines, I visited a prison in Mindinao. There were no walls, only corrugated covers to keep the rain off the beds. During the rainy season, the night time temperature gets down to 45 or 50°F in the mountains. Beds, were narrow bunks attached to central columns. No mattresses, pillows or blankets (allowed, but must be provided from the "outside"). Punishments for taking another's belongings were severe so it does not happen frequently. Lavatory facilities - outhouse. Running water only in the showers (open air with "modesty" barrier, only one inmate allowed at a time). Food was three modest meals per day, nothing fancy, mostly rice and fish with water to drink. Nothing different on special occasions or holidays. Entertainment was a small radio. Recreation was a few decks of playing cards, a basketball court and ball, nothing more. Players rotated and there was no such thing as a "foul." Since everyone was out in the open, any deviations from accepted behavior were dealt with quickly and severely.

At first, I was quite surprised at the conditions thinking them to be cruel and unusual, but I was told by the judge that there aren't many willing to risk a second trip to prison after serving their time.

You tell me, which system is working? Theirs or ours?

 

[ewick]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

Anybody remember Dru Sjodin...the girl who disappeared off the face of the planet a couple of months ago?

What about her biggest fan, Alfonso Rodriguez Jr.? Yeah. A "reformed" violent sex offender, who was recently released from his 23 year stint in prison, who just happened to have a knife with Dru's blood on it in his vehicle.

I don't care whether it's more expensive to kill this guy or not. Some people just need to be dead.

 

[jayflash]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

Violent sexual predators can be released from prison while nonviolent, stupid but harmless, small time, drug offenders stay in prison under the three strikes law. We should be able to incarcerate the stupid politicians and voters who pass and approve these and other counterproductive laws.

The whole system and voters attitudes need to change so we can put some (nonviolent) of our two million prisoners back into jobs, paying taxes.

 

[KC2IXE]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

I have a slightly different look at this. I would shorten MOST prison sentences. Way short. A non violent bank robbery (white OR blue collar) would probably get you 2-3 years, but BOY would they be the most miserable years you'll ever send

As for 3 strikes, here is how I would do it.

1)Felonies count ONLY, but ALL felonies count
2)You must have completed your sentence for the previous crime for the new one to "count"

The ODDS of the courts getting it wrong 3 TIMES, or even 2 is very slight. Let's say they got it wrong once - I don't care, your guilty 2x then - that proves that you didn't learn from your time.

And now, I would NOT imprison them for life - they would get the death penalty ASAP, as they have proved that you can't be cured

 

[JOshooter]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

[ QUOTE ]
d'mo said:
During my last trip to the Philippines, I visited a prison in Mindinao. There were no walls, only corrugated covers to keep the rain off the beds. During the rainy season, the night time temperature gets down to 45 or 50°F in the mountains. Beds, were narrow bunks attached to central columns. No mattresses, pillows or blankets (allowed, but must be provided from the "outside"). Punishments for taking another's belongings were severe so it does not happen frequently. Lavatory facilities - outhouse. Running water only in the showers (open air with "modesty" barrier, only one inmate allowed at a time). Food was three modest meals per day, nothing fancy, mostly rice and fish with water to drink. Nothing different on special occasions or holidays. Entertainment was a small radio. Recreation was a few decks of playing cards, a basketball court and ball, nothing more. Players rotated and there was no such thing as a "foul." Since everyone was out in the open, any deviations from accepted behavior were dealt with quickly and severely.

At first, I was quite surprised at the conditions thinking them to be cruel and unusual, but I was told by the judge that there aren't many willing to risk a second trip to prison after serving their time.

You tell me, which system is working? Theirs or ours?

[/ QUOTE ]

The same could be asked about our punishment for both DWIs. In Europe people drink the same, but they don't have nearly the amount of DWI arrests. I asked several exchange students in my classes about this and they say that the penalty is a several thousand dollar fine, their license is taken away for years, and I'm not sure about imprisonment. Anyone cought overthere drinking and driving is also "shuned" by their family and friends. I think we should start looking at how other countries justice systems work and try to improve ours based on what our government finds.

Last year one of the Contemporary Issues classes had a group of students doing a presentation on the death penalty. They organized for a speaker to come up here (to Alaska) and give his view on the death penalty. He had a daughter killed in the Oklahoma City bombing. He was for the DP before this incident, but that changed when the bomb exploded. He said that he wanted McVeigh to suffer as much as possible, and if he was put to death what would that prove? He also got to know McVeigh's and other victim's familys. After McVeigh was put down he talked to some people who witnessed it. A half hour after the death occured they said that it didn't do anything for their emotional state.

 

[JonSidneyB]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

the deterrent effect to work has to have a couple of qualities.

First, the suspect has to believe that they might get caught and face a penelty. This cannot stand alone but is part of it, In finite math this would be called expected value. The chance of getting caught has to be multiplied by the penelty.

If the chance of paying the price is high, and the penelty weak, you get little result. If the chance of paying a penalty is low and cost high, you get little result. Then there is the concept of present value, the further out the penelty, the lower the deterent.

I think that even when the death penalty is present, we do not have the detterent effect that could be present because of the certainty. The criminal population has to beleive they are likely to face a penalty and the cost to the criminal must be hight, Death is a pretty high price. Again, think of it as a finite math problem.

This does not cover the morality of it but I am for the death penalty but I think I would like to know more about the evidence laws, perhaps they should be changed, not sure yet.

It is interesting, 4 people broke into a families home. The kids were there with some friends but no adults present. They tied up a 12 year old girl and they testified that it took 15 minuted to cut her throat because they were using a cheap knife found in the kitchen. All the kids were killed and the neighbor that was watching them. They were stupid enough to steal the car found in the garage, rent a U-Haul and clean out the house. They her found with the car in one of the crimals driveway and the positions in the house. They had prints, witnesses that saw them enter the house at daylight. The took the furniture and car later at night. With the evidence they got confessions. They did not get the death penalty.....
How is this right. They were a greek family that imagrated with nothing and were making it big and then all the childeren were lost for a car and the furniture.

 

[Kristofg]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

[ QUOTE ]
The same could be asked about our punishment for both DWIs. In Europe people drink the same, but they don't have nearly the amount of DWI arrests. I asked several exchange students in my classes about this and they say that the penalty is a several thousand dollar fine, their license is taken away for years, and I'm not sure about imprisonment. Anyone cought overthere drinking and driving is also "shuned" by their family and friends. I think we should start looking at how other countries justice systems work and try to improve ours based on what our government finds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the penalty depends on how much the alcohol level is. If you're caught driving under influence, you have to leacve your car behind or have another driver take over, you are fined according to the alcohol level and if it is too high, your drivers permit is suspended for a certain amount of time. Not that when you have caused an accident while drunk, the penalties are much higher. There have been an umber of campaigns against drunk driving which have helped making it socially unacceptable and there has been a sharp decrease in drunk driving. There is little need for jail penalties as the fact that you will get caught acts as a better deterrent than the amount of punishment you get. The current norm is that every driver gets caught on an offense once every three years. be it speeding, false parking, not giving way or driving without insurance. The more chance you have of being caught, the less likely you are to disobey the law. It isn't the fact how much punishment you get, it's the fact that you'll get caught.

 

[Greta]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

Regarding the hostage situation at the prison in Buckeye, AZ... I heard the most amazing statement on the news this afternoon. The reporter said that the negotiators were there and that they were talking with the inmates that were holding the guards hostage in the tower and they were trying to work things out so that "everyone would be happy". WTF?!?!?!?... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Bravo25]

Re: Idea: How to deal with vicious criminals in pr

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
Regarding the hostage situation at the prison in Buckeye, AZ... I heard the most amazing statement on the news this afternoon. The reporter said that the negotiators were there and that they were talking with the inmates that were holding the guards hostage in the tower and they were trying to work things out so that "everyone would be happy". WTF?!?!?!?... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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I would bet that a Remmington BDL chambered for the .308, and a 40X scope with windage, and elevation calibration could a long way towards making at least a couple of them happy.
Pun intended