In the dark about remaining charge?

[Poppy]

<snip>
As there ARE lights with this feature, the end result of whether they SELL or, end up on the clearance rack, will be if the feature is as important to THEM. If so, more lights will follow suit.

If they languish on the shelves, makers will drop it from the features list.

It seems to me that WE are on the cutting edge, and that WE are NOT joe user.

Personally, I have found the Brinkman battery indicator more useful, than the Nitecore MSC20 one that flashes Green or Red when I turn it off. I be willing to bet, that at the manufacturing level, that it would cost pennies, OK, maybe a hundred or two, to add battery charge indicator features to a light. I'll predict that we will see more in the future. Let's face it... it is a selling point. Joe user doesn't know throw from flood, but can recognize a "battery charge indicator" in a heart beat. That would make one light better than the next.

Hmmm... two lights, what's the difference... oh THIS one has a battery charge indicator--- I'll buy THIS one.

 

[thedoc007]

What about a voltage flash system like the Nitecore P12?
(5xflash/pause/2xflash=5.2volts)
That would work with any cell combination and chemistry.

Well, it might give you a number...but the number might not be at all useful. With lithium ion, the voltage gives you the charge, more or less. But this is not true with CR123s, for example. They are 3V at start, and 3V right before they are about to die. Likewise, NiMH have a relatively flat discharge voltage compared to lithium ion. This means the voltage has no real meaning for most of the discharge cycle.

Something that tests a cell under load, like a miniaturized ZTS battery tester, would be a somewhat better way to do it...but that is more complicated, and would probably make the light larger and more expensive. Tradeoffs everywhere...that's why I actually LIKE the way Li-ions drop voltage in use. I can always tell how much charge I have left very easily. And for those lights that have it, the simple voltage readout is adequate for that cell type.

 

[reppans]

What about a voltage flash system like the Nitecore P12?
(5xflash/pause/2xflash=5.2volts)
That would work with any cell combination and chemistry.

Now that's a great way getting around the multi-cell/config problem, although it's still tough to estimate remaining capacity for cells with very flat discharge curves (1.5/3.0v Lithium primaries and NiMh). I'd love to see that in a 0.9-4.2v light that will run Alks/NiMh/L91/CRAA/14500, thanks for pointing it out .

EDIT: thedoc beat me to it.... still, it's better than nothing.

 

[Brewer]

Wow, what great responses, thanks. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone.

What inspired this, in particular, is that I own a bunch of Ryobi Li-Ion power tools with a button on the battery itself, and an LED indicator that lights red, amber or green based on the remaining charge. I find this so useful that now I honestly wouldn't even consider buying a tool system that didn't have it. I go to put up a shelf or similar, grab a drill, quickly check it's juiced up, and go. If it's amber and it's only a quick job, I know I'll be right. If it's red, or the job might be too much for amber, I'll swap the battery. If I'm heading to the end of the yard for a bigger job I'll make sure there's a green on board and one in my It's just so damn fast and convenient. Sadly the Ryobi flashlights are a bit on the clunky side.

I actually wouldn't mind proprietary, click-in batteries for daily flashlight use if extras were available at a reasonable cost. But I realise this may be a step too far for some

I'll concede that it might not be the easiest thing to incorporate into standard designs that can run on a variety of battery chemistries, but I bet it's not impossible. In terms of the actual interface, you don't necessarily need a second button, you could just have an indicator that works whenever the flashlight is in use. Maybe a translucent switch cover that glows from a micro LED mounted behind it? Or if you want it to work independently of the main operation, how about a spring-loaded head? Push it towards the body and see what colour the base of the reflector lights up? I'm sure the various flashlight developers could come up with suitably creative solutions.

 

[Overclocker]

yes fuel gauges are always good to have. i don't think they add too much cost to implement

however if it involves another point of failure like a side button then no thanks

some flashlight designs aim for SIMPLICITY so here the added complexity of a fuel gauge isn't desirable

i'd be happy with a simple voltage readout. i really don't mind if it won't give meaningful results on NiMH because i really don't want to pay for more complex coulomb-counters and such

fuel gauge could be easily implemented on conventional tail-clicky designs by having to enter a special mode, perhaps by 3x loosen-tighten, then the main LED could blink out the voltage. really no need to have to drill out the body for a side button or indicator LED (another thing to leak!)

 

[subwoofer]

The OP raises an interesting discussion point.

A flashlight is in essence a very simple device, and in many cases very inexpensive. Certainly for cheaper lights there would be little justification in including any battery indicator.

Of course the OP's point is regarding lights costing over $100, but taking a price point is not really practical, as a $100 single-AA light should be very good quality and have many features, a $100 light outputting thousands of lumens will be a relatively cheap item. So taking a price point is not really appropriate.

Whatever the particular price point, even if the technology is there, is it worth the cost of implementing it? If you are making a $100 MSP light, but by adding in a battery meter your costs increase by 10%, then immediately you are losing money for a feature not everyone would worry about.

Market forces will drive what features must be included in a product. If only lights with a battery meter are selling, then all manufacturers will follow suit.

I have tested many different implementations of battery meters, almost all of which were in an implementation that results in parasitic drain on the battery. My preference is to avoid parasitic drain completely which makes reporting the state of charge a simple voltage check.

An example of one version I do like is in the NITECORE HC50. I leave this locked out when not in use. Every time I pick it up I then tighten the battery cap and the switch flashes up the current cell voltage. Simple and relatively reliable. Of course what it does not do is to report the condition of the cell.

In most cases, I would not want to rely on a single device. Take a cordless drill battery as an example; I would never rely on one battery, and would always have one on the go, and one fully charged. When I need to I swap over. The same goes with lights. I have one cell on the go, and a spare ready to go. I would also have an entire spare light, making it even easier to swap.

If a function is essential, then have a spare.

 

[ven]

The OP raises an interesting discussion point.


In most cases, I would not want to rely on a single device. Take a cordless drill battery as an example; I would never rely on one battery, and would always have one on the go, and one fully charged. When I need to I swap over. The same goes with lights. I have one cell on the go, and a spare ready to go. I would also have an entire spare light, making it even easier to swap.

If a function is essential, then have a spare.

+1,
If its a tool ,have a back up,if it requires cells ,have a back up/s.

Thats how i use my lights,some have volt readings,other not ,but i work with the same principle,i run my cells down a bit during use,top them back up from around 70% give/take depending on use, and put a replacement in.

Of course this is within reason as i have around 50+ li-ion cells,so having back up for every light would not be cost/user friendly. But the lights i use the most,i always have back up cells ready,when i get back (depending on time of use,not topping of a cell thats had 5 mins of use but say around 30 mins+) i put a fresh cell in and charge other back up for the next day/time and take as spare.

If its a daily use you know what run times to expect,how much life you get,i can guess the volts from the cells before i put them on the vp2 or MM and usually very close.Some lights loose turbo,then high for example so depending on light,some dont need a volt readout.

Admittedly useful all the same,how many peeps need/want them on their lights again is dependent on user needs/wants and many companies offer a model that offers this.This way you can choose a light to suit needs,off the top of my head my ea4/ea8/p25/tm15 all have read outs via flashing buttons.Others loose the highest level...........

My lenser t7.2 does not need a readout as not regulated,i get more out of the cells,can tell once it gets to a point i change them.My Thrunite t10s(soon t10t and t10) are single AA and have no need for any readout or want one. As well as cost,would it effect reliability long term,more to go wrong possibly,would it become an obsession checking............only thoughts.

Sometime i just want to use a light without all the MM and read outs,simplicity sometime is great,less modes,less blinkies,more user friendly.

Again just my opinion,not right or wrong,just down to my use of lights,for me its handy to have,but with the right mind set(not saying anyone hasn't :laughing: ) i generally dont see it being too much of an issue,preparation for everything is key.

I do think more beneficial on multi cell lights over single,but thats just me
Regards ven:thumbsup:

 

[TEEJ]

Wow, what great responses, thanks. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone.

BUY A TM26.....you say you want a light with this feature, and, this light HAS it. This is not a theoretical issue, lights COME with it, you just didn't BUY ANY OF THEM.

If its important, do it.

Its available now....problem solved.

 

[kbuzbee]

The key, for me at least, is that if the cell has to be in the device to charge it, I am out of action during the recharge.

Youre trying to tell us you don't have another light you can use while that light is charging up! Hmm....

JK!

Lots of great points here. I for one am very glad flashlights use batteries I can replace (and generally accept a variety of batteries in different sizes and chemistries) I don't really "need" it to have a cell phone style indicator.

Ken

 

[Overclocker]

I have no problem if my light has a battery level indicator. Do I really need this feature? I would say no. Whenever I go out, I just put a freshly charged cell(s) to my light and carry 4 fresh primary cells.
I EDC a HDS Hi CRI (with a SF with Malkoff M361N as backup), so I can tell when the battery needs to be replaced.

ok so each and every time you drive out you head to the gas station to fill up first? you carry 4 large gasoline containers in the trunk too?

for me i just glance at the fuel gauge. if i think i have enough i just drive off to where i'm going...

 

[TEEJ]

Youre trying to tell us you don't have another light you can use while that light is charging up! Hmm....

JK!

Lots of great points here. I for one am very glad flashlights use batteries I can replace (and generally accept a variety of batteries in different sizes and chemistries) I don't really "need" it to have a cell phone style indicator.

Ken

LOL

ME?

More than 1 light?




I agree an indicator is useful...but, I'm so used to DMM-ing cells on the way in/out every day, that I just don't NEED the light to have an indicator. I HAVE lights with various indicators though, and, its useful.


Generally though, as li-ions don't have a memory, and, a partial recharge cycle = less wear and tear than a full recharge cycle, I simply use the lights, and then put the cells onto a charger, and swap in freshies...w/o worrying that I might have had more run time left or not, its just a habit that's easy to follow.

If I pop a set out of the light at 3.9 v or 4.0 v or 3.6 v, it doesn't matter...when I come back for them, they'll all be at ~ 4.2 v, and, the ones I put in the light will be too.

The indicators I find MORE useful are on lights I don't use as often, and that take dedicated battery packs, say the Polarions I use for disaster response, and, I can hit the indicator and confirm they are ready to go if needed, or, top them off if they are not, etc.

 

[880arm]

Good thread and interesting discussion.

I agree with others that there has to be some justification for built-in battery monitoring before a manufacturer will consider adding it. Just because they make a business decision to not include it does not necessarily make them lazy or cheap as, for most companies, this is something that would make a meaningful difference for only a very small percentage of their users. A lot of the implementations I have seen so far have been little more than gimmicks, in my opinion, particularly when they only provide readings with the battery under no (or a very small) load. As mentioned above, there is more to battery capacity than resting voltage.

That's not to say a simple voltage indicator can't be useful. Of the lights I have tested so far the most useful has been the simple LED used on several SureFire lights such as the UB3T, R1, UNR, and UB-R. The indicator only illuminates when the light is being used so it creates no standby battery drain and provides some indication of the battery's voltage while under load. Generally green means it's fully charged, amber is where you will spend most of your operating time and red means it's time to change/charge the batteries or switch to a lower output level. INOVA uses something similar on their rechargeable lights but it gives almost zero warning before the light shuts off. They get points for trying but it needs to be refined a little bit.

 

[reppans]

Generally though, as li-ions don't have a memory, and, a partial recharge cycle = less wear and tear than a full recharge cycle, I simply use the lights, and then put the cells onto a charger, and swap in freshies...w/o worrying that I might have had more run time left or not, its just a habit that's easy to follow.

If I pop a set out of the light at 3.9 v or 4.0 v or 3.6 v, it doesn't matter...when I come back for them, they'll all be at ~ 4.2 v, and, the ones I put in the light will be too.

Top-off charging Li-ions is actually the worst thing you can do to them, after exposure to high heat. While it is true that shallower discharge cycles are better than deep discharge cycles, attaining, and retaining, max and high voltage is even more stressful for the cell.

Battery University and this Military Study on Cycling Habits are consistent on that.

That said, flashlight cells are cheap and easily replaced, and some like to have maximum capacity when they walk out the door.... so who really cares .

 

[bbrins]

I don't particularly care for charge indicators on my lights, the ones that I do have or have had, have never been very accurate, usually they tell me that the batteries are dead very shortly after swapping in fresh ones, so I tend to just ignore them.

If I am going out after dark, or if the need of a flashlight is critical, I just grab a spare light, and maybe a spare battery too, this also allows for a light failure and not just a dead battery.

I tend to keep a pretty close eye on my batteries, so it would be a rare thing for me to grab any of my lights and there be any less than a half charge, and since most of the time I use medium or low modes, this means that I have a couple of hours of bright usable light left, at least on any of the lights that I would grab for something critical.

 

[Brewer]

Buy a TM26

buy a TM 26

BUY A TM26

Exactly what are you suggesting TEEJ?


Actually that's a great solution. One by the back door, one by the front door, one in the car, one in the other car, one in the shed... Do they sell them by the dozen?

 

[Richwouldnt]

The lights that do have some sort of battery charge indicator are ones that either use a proprietary battery pack like the Olite SR series or the Fenix RC40. The Nitecore TM26 mentioned uses four 18650 cellls but they can be charged in the light. Fine for Lithium Ions but harder to implement for use with primary lithium 3V batteries, NiMH cells or Energizer Ultimate Lithiums all of which have very flat discharge voltage curves.

 

[TEEJ]

Exactly what are you suggesting TEEJ?


Actually that's a great solution. One by the back door, one by the front door, one in the car, one in the other car, one in the shed... Do they sell them by the dozen?

I hear that they are cheaper by the dozen.



I kept posting it because it seemed you needed one (or however many. ..), yet, didn't just buy one.

 

[nbp]

Hey great, the fattest most uncomfortable to hold light in the world comes with a charge indicator, our problems are solved! Lol. :laughing:

I don't thing that particular light is what most buyers are looking for, charge screen or not, you know?

 

[thedoc007]

Hey great, the fattest most uncomfortable to hold light in the world comes with a charge indicator, our problems are solved! Lol. :laughing:

I think you are partly joking here, but still. I can tell you have never owned a TM26. The light is phenomenal. Very comfortable to hold. It is one of my go-to lights for night hiking, and if it was even a little uncomfortable, that would not be the case. And you haven't fully appreciated how good a voltage indicator can be until you see the OLED in person.

 

[Viperbart]

We need a light with a charge indicator that works exactly like the SC600 but can also be programmable to whatever type of batteries you put in to make it work with all chemistries and combinations.
(Cycle the light on and off 6 times to go into program and double click once for li-ion, triple clic once for cr123, quad clic for ni-mh etc and click once to end programming)