Incan vs LED runtime and brightness comparisons

[tkoden]

I keep talking to my friends about the Fenix lights and they think I am dumb for paying $55 for a flashlight. Has anyone done any good comparisons with 3D and 2aa mag lights vs something like L2D Q5 light comparing brightness and runtimes between these industry std lights and some of the better LED lights?

 

[adirondackdestroyer]

I keep talking to my friends about the Fenix lights and they think I am dumb for paying $55 for a flashlight. Has anyone done any good comparisons with 3D and 2aa mag lights vs something like L2D Q5 light comparing brightness and runtimes between these industry std lights and some of the better LED lights?

There hasn't been all that much comparisons between high performance lights and common industry standard flashlights. This is the closest thing you'll find:

http://lights.chevrofreak.com/runtimes/Fenix L2D CE vs MinImagLED 2AA.png

It is a direct comparison between the MM LED 2AA and the Fenix L2D P4. You can see that the Fenix completely spanks the MM LED! Not even close. Also keep in mind that the Q5 version would give the P4 version a pretty good beating.

 

[Marduke]

For comparison, the 2AA Mag puts out 15 lumens for 5.5 hours. The 3D Mag puts out 77 lumens for 9-10 hours with the stock Krypton bulb.

 

[pipspeak]

Just go to flashlightreviews.com and check the output figures for both the minimagLED and the L2D cree (P4):

L2D high (not max) -- overall output 50L for 4 hours
Mag AA LD -- starts at 27.3L (and drops 25% in 30 min)

So on high, the L2D P4 has about twice the output (on turbo even more) and the Q5 version of the L2D is way more powerful. Compared to the 3D MagLED total output of the P4 L2D is about the same from what I remember but the mag obviously has far more throw.

 

[woodrow]

I have a Maglight 4D and have had a Fenix P3D R100. I would take the Fenix over the Maglight eveery day of the week. It lights up more area, does not get dim after 40 minutes of use. Does not way 6 pounds. Has a low level if needed.

It also fits into a pocket and you do not get as many looks if you carry it into a movie theater.

So to sum up... the Fenix if brighter, lighter and more versitile. Still buy which ever one you like.

 

[Vermonter73]

There is no comparison.

 

[JamisonM]

I think its also worth pointing out that while the Fenix may be brighter, smaller and just a plain more flexible light; it won't have the runtimes of even the 2D magled. With those two D cells, you'll be able to describe its runtime in terms of days, not mere hours. I love my L2D-CE, but when I really want light, I'll grab my molkoffed 3D maglite in a heartbeat.

 

[Marduke]

I think its also worth pointing out that while the Fenix may be brighter, smaller and just a plain more flexible light; it won't have the runtimes of even the 2D magled. With those two D cells, you'll be able to describe its runtime in terms of days, not mere hours. I love my L2D-CE, but when I really want light, I'll grab my molkoffed 3D maglite in a heartbeat.

It'll run at 12 lumens (55hrs) -> 53 lumens (10.5hrs). Mag's 30ish lumens is right in between there for the 2D at ~22 hours.

But the question was incan vs. LED, not LED vs. different LED.

 

[JamisonM]

It'll run at 12 lumens (55hrs) -> 53 lumens (10.5hrs). Mag's 30ish lumens is right in between there for the 2D at ~22 hours.

But the question was incan vs. LED, not LED vs. different LED.

That's close enough to a day for me and still alot of light from just 2 D cells for that length of time. No fenix can match that output and maintain similar runtime. I'm sorry, I get riled up when people suggest that magled's are somehow inferior to the fenix lights. Anyway, back on topic.

 

[Bonky]

can someone point me to a runtime graph of the maglights?

 

[CrazyCarl]

2AA maglite:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglight_minimag.htm

Their full list:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews_index/reviews_by_mfgrs.htm

Too bad the website is dead now (no more new reviews), but you can definitely compare some Maglites to fairly recent LEDs.

 

[deathkenli]

That's close enough to a day for me and still alot of light from just 2 D cells for that length of time. No fenix can match that output and maintain similar runtime. I'm sorry, I get riled up when people suggest that magled's are somehow inferior to the fenix lights. Anyway, back on topic.

The typical capacity of an alkaline D cell is about 19000mAh.

Alkaline AA is about 2700mAh.

The end.

 

[Luminescent]

For those who take the rational approach, LED's make a lot of sense from a theoretical point of view because in a compact portable light source that has constraints on both size and weight, and where you want the maximum output and runtime, it's all about luminous efficiency.

A common incandescent house light only hits around 15 to 18 lumens per watt efficiency, and the best LED emitters are 5 to 6 times this efficient.

By operating at higher temperatures, krypton and halogen bulbs in a flashlight can offer up to about 24 lumens/watt, but then the bulbs have a much shorter life, and are subject to dimming during the life as the filament degrades. LED's are more efficient than the highest performance bulb by a factor of four or more, and can run thousands of hours with almost no noticeable loss of output.

In the past LED lights were hocked only on the basis of having 'unbreakable bulbs' that would last 'thousands of hours' (or because they offered very long runtimes), but could not compete for raw output with a krypton or halogen bulb incandescent.

This has changed, and now a LED flashlight can easily surpass common incandescent flashlights on BOTH runtime and output by a large margin, but I think it's still hard for most folks to justify spending $50 on a flashlight on a cost-benefit basis, because they are thinking that you have to go through a LOT of batteries and bulbs to spend 50 dollars (and there is certainly no reason on earth why a heavy flashlight user can't use NiMH cells in their trusty incandescent Maglight).

Obviously, the most significant factor in favor of the LED light is not just the cost savings on batteries, it's the greater output, longer run times, lower weight, more consistent performance, higher beam quality, etc. but not everyone will feel that their needs justify spending $50 on a flashlight whatever it's advantages might be.

Not everyone has a 50 inch plasma TV (I certainly don't), and not everyone will feel that they need a $50 dollar flashlight (though I do).

In any case, whatever the price point, some sort of LED based light will probably still be the best solution, even for these cost-conscious folks. For example, the little $10 River-Rock 2AAA light outperforms the equivalent incandescent Maglight in output, runtime, and beam quality at about the same cost.

Even an cheapy department store 1W LED light with one of those crappy counterfeit 'Ruxeon' emitter knockoffs wll probably hit at least 25 to 30 lumens output and outperform most standard incandescent lights on runtime.

The LED emitters in these lights usually have really crappy luminous efficiency (barely better than incandescent), and they are often heavily overdriven to make up for it, but since most folks are happy if they will at least marginally outperform their old Maglight, they just don't care.

A great 'convincer' light, for about $40, that not only demonstrates the difference between an incandescent and a LED, but also between those common 'department store grade' lights and a truly cutting edge technology light, is the little L0D-Q4 light from Fenix. (currently the Q4 emitter is only available for some reason as a red 'seasonal special' light) This little light will outperform my 3 D-Cell Maglight on output on high, and has low modes that offer hours of light, all on a single tiny AAA battery.

Another great option for someone who can't quite justify spending $40 on a tiny AAA light like the L0D-Q4, is the Jetbeam C-LE v2.0 single AA light, which has at least double the performance of any department store single AA light for about 29 bucks (with the small CPF discount that most dealers offer).

 

[yellow]

just invite to a night hike and have them bring their crappy rubberized 2 AA lights ...
Even the one person with the MM gets a kick (if You are lucky, the bulb burns out while the hike, just make it a few hours long)

Online tests are not this "showing" than the reality

 

[Luminescent]

That's close enough to a day for me and still alot of light from just 2 D cells for that length of time. No fenix can match that output and maintain similar runtime. I'm sorry, I get riled up when people suggest that magled's are somehow inferior to the fenix lights. Anyway, back on topic.

I only get riled up when other folks get riled up, but then don't bother to get all the facts right.

Just kidding, I'm not riled up at all, and so far as it goes, it's perfectly true that the Fenix L2D won't run at higher than the Mag's level for more than 22 hours, but 22 hours is not 'days' (and the L0D will run 'days' on low), and in any case, by the agreed standards here on CPF the 'runtime' of the 2D 3W MagLED would only be 13 minutes (because the thermal design is so crappy that the output drops to less than half in only that short period of time).

If you had just said that Maglights are built to very high mechanical standards, with machine work rivaling Fenix and Surefire lights at a tiny fraction of the cost, and that their LED versions work pretty well compared to the old incandescent versions, I would have agreed with you.

But when you look at the performance of the MagLED lights a little closer, they ARE not just 'somehow inferior' they are MASSIVELY inferior when compaired to modern efficient designs like the Fenix L2D.

An L2D with 2 AA batteries weighs in at 1/4 pound compared to a pound and a half for the Mag 2 D.

At less than 1/6 the weight and volume of a 2 D-Cell Mag-LED light, if the L2D worked even half as well, then that would be pretty impressive, but it doesn't work half as well, it beats the living crap out of the MagLED across the board.

A lot of light from JUST 2 D Cells? How about FAR FAR LESS output on high, and also a lot LESS lumen-hours of light when long runtimes are needed, from a huge beast six times as heavy, with NO flexibility to switch output levels to get more output for some jobs and more runtime for others?

How about efficiency and performance numbers that are amongst the LOWEST in the industry, made only marginally acceptable by the use of heavy HUGE 20 Amp hour batteries? (Energizer rates it's D-Cells at more than 20 Amp Hours)

Flashlight-Reviews.com has looked at both lights, and is respected for the accuracy of it's data, so let's look at his data for both lights.

Here's the Mag LED 3W data -

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_mag-led.htm

Note that the overall output of the 2 D-Cell 3W LED is rated at 3800, but this drops to less than HALF in only 13 minutes due to thermal issues, then it limps along at the equivalent of less than 1900 (using the same relative units), for the rest of that 22 hours that was quoted (actually 26 hours to 25% in the Flashlight-Reviews data).


Now here is the link to the L1D and L2D (both use the same electronics)

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_l1dce-l2dce.htm


Note that on the L2D's maximum output mode, the overall output score is 8800, which is much more than TWICE as high as the initial RATED MagLED level of 3900 (again, this from a light 1/6 the weight), and this 8800 level is more than 4 and a half times the output that the MagLED falls to in only 13 minutes of operation due to thermal issues. Sure the Fenix only runs a little over 2 hours at this level but that's a lot better than 13 minutes isn't it?

But isn't there any pesky adjustment we need to make to that Fenix number like we did for the crappy MagLED, to allow for it's output falling off after a few minutes? Nope. In fact the only adjustment that needs to be made is UPWARDS, because the NEW L2D-RB100 and L2D-Q5 lights have about 1/3'rd MORE output than the LOD-CE model that Flashlight-Reviews looked at. So 4.5 times the usable output (after 13 minutes) becomes more like 6 times the usable output. Hmmm 6 times the usable output in a light 1/6th the size. That would be about a thirty-six to one performance difference when the size of the light is factored in, so if it only runs 1/11'th as long in this ultra high output mode then I think we are still ahead of the game.

Still think that the Fenix lights don't make the Mag LED's look 'somehow inferior'?

Ok, then let's look at the LOWEST mode and factor in Lumen/Hours of runtime -

On LOW the L2D scored 855 on Flashlight-Reviews relative scale, and adjusting this upward by 1/3 to account for the new L2D-Q5 model, we still only get up to about 1137. It's true that this is only about 60% as bright as the MagLED scored on the same scale (in it's one and only output mode), which may sound bad until you consider that the L2D ran almost 60 hours on plain alkalines and 86 hours on readily available L91 Lithium cells in this mode.

Taking the L91 numbers; a L0D-Q5 would give 60% of the output for about FOUR TIMES AS LONG. So the MagLED is a bit brighter but the L0D will run a LOT longer, so to be fair we have to figure it on a Lumen/Hours basis.

If we do this calculation, it's obvious that at only 1/6 the weight and volume of the MagLED 2D 3W light, the little Fenix L0D-Q5 would still score more than TWICE as high in the LUMEN/HOURS department in it's lowest mode, and run 8 hours a night for 10 days straight in an emergency situation.

There's no mumbo-jumbo here, that is actually MORE total light output on two tiny AA cells, than the 3W MagLED is able to supply with 2 HUGE D-Cell batteries.

So let's review . . .

The 2 D-Cell 3W MagLED has less than 1/6'th the usable output after only 13 minutes compared to a L0D on MAX, and less than half the Lumen/Hours of usable output on a long runtime test, in a light that is 6 times as massive, but that's not 'somehow inferior'?

Getting back to the main subject of the thread comparing the Mag Incandescent to the L2D, I would call your attention to the graph which appears near the bottom of the Mag 3W ratings on the Flashlight-Reviews.com page.

Here's the link again-

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_mag-led.htm

Sorry I can't just hot-link in the figure, but that's a no-no here on CPF, so just scroll all the way down to the bottom and look at the figure labeled-

"Mag-LEDs vs Stock 3 D-Cell Incandescent".

Wow, look at those output level and runtime curves! Even that relatively lackluster Mag 3W LED beats the living daylights out of the original incandescent model !!!

Since the Fenix L2D just STOMPS the Mag LED into the ground (it's not even close), this should give you at least a small idea of the HUGE margin that the L2D beats the original Mag incandescent by.

 

[JamisonM]

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2259288#post2259288

So basically, the fenix can be run at a much brighter level then the 2D magled, but for a much shorter amount of time (something like a tenth of the total time) and can also run for a much longer length of time (somewhere around twice as long), but at a much lower level then the 2D magled.
I'm sorry, but as I see it, you'll either run your fenix in low and get a longer total runtime while not even equaling the magled or you will run it in medium and get a similar output, but at a the cost of a much shorter total runtime. Use your fenix in high or turbo and total runtime goes out the window. I don't care about agreed standards. I'm only concerned with the amount of time a light can emit light from the moment it's turned on to the time it doesn't.
Another thing I don't care about is the weight of a 2D maglite. It's not like it's a huge burden to bear with those two huge lead D cells. I consider a 2D light to be an ideal form factor. Even a 3D and 4D light are no problem in my opinion.
Bla bla bla bla etc...
Instead of writing a huge post like you did I'll just say it; the fenix lights are not superior to the magled lights. They may be able to produce a brighter light, are lighter, and have multiple output levels, but these features don't make them superior, just more flexible. If it was superior, it would be able to equal the magled in both total runtime and brightness and still retain those features.

 

[Marduke]

You do realize that a MagLED is only putting out 30-40ish lumens, right? The Fenix is roughly 4x as efficient. But go ahead and EDC that 3D Mag in your back pocket if you want. I'm sure you won't even notice that it's there. :shakehead

 

[woodrow]

Surefire and Maglight (and Fenix) when any of these brands are challenged here, loyalists and detractors of each brand are quick to post.

Let me be honest. I HATE maglights. More than any other flashlight ever made. I was the happiest kid in the world when I traded my old 2D for a SF 6p back in 1989. And there (in my opinion) have been way better lights than the 6p made since.

Now that I said that, it kind of disqualifies me from a rational discussion on the subject.

My advice, Buy a Fenix Q5 light and buy a Maglight. Any of them with out the led (and there are better led lights out there than Magleds) are super cheap...often $10. Now you can decide for yourself which is better.

Keep the one you like, give away or sell the other. At least then your curiosity will be satisfied. Just my .02

 

[meuge]

So basically, the fenix can be run at a much brighter level then the 2D magled, but for a much shorter amount of time (something like a tenth of the total time)

Magled will average 25 lumens or so after the first 10 minutes...

and can also run for a much longer length of time (somewhere around twice as long), but at a much lower level then the 2D magled.

The Fenix L2D Medium level is about 2X the brightness of the MagLED 3D, and will burn for 10 hours or so.

I'm sorry, but as I see it, you'll either run your fenix in low and get a longer total runtime while not even equaling the magled or you will run it in medium and get a similar output, but at a the cost of a much shorter total runtime.

Well, I guess 2X shorter can be considered "MUCH" shorter.

Use your fenix in high or turbo and total runtime goes out the window. I don't care about agreed standards. I'm only concerned with the amount of time a light can emit light from the moment it's turned on to the time it doesn't.
Another thing I don't care about is the weight of a 2D maglite. It's not like it's a huge burden to bear with those two huge lead D cells. I consider a 2D light to be an ideal form factor. Even a 3D and 4D light are no problem in my opinion.

If weight is no problem, then I will go ahead and carry a 4-pack of Eneloops along with my L2D-CE... which will still be lighter and possible to pocket, unlike the Maglite, and will let me run the light on High, for about the same amount of time a MagLED runs, except at like 3-4X brightness.

Bla bla bla bla etc...
Instead of writing a huge post like you did I'll just say it; the fenix lights are not superior to the magled lights. They may be able to produce a brighter light, are lighter, and have multiple output levels, but these features don't make them superior, just more flexible. If it was superior, it would be able to equal the magled in both total runtime and brightness and still retain those features.

Firstly, I find it hilarious that you're suggesting that in your typical use, you will evidently be walking around with a turned on flashlight for upwards of 20 hours straight.

Secondly, I find your aggressive attitude rather annoying, and I would suggest that if you're going to behave like a spoiled child, you do it elsewhere.

 

[Gunner12]

You also have to factor in battery capacity.

A typical AA has about 5-7 times less capacity then a D battery.