Indoor LED fixture for plants?

Mercaptan

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I'm looking to see if modern LEDs provide enough spectrum to help plants (I have a few orchids, some herbs) grow indoors. City life sucks without having access to an outside area, so oh well.

The other choice is simply use two 24" fluorescent broad spectrum bulbs at 20 watts each with a ballast in a simple fixture. I was wondering if the modern LEDs are to the point where I could get this achieved for less than 40 watts... for about the same price tag (40-50 bucks for a complete setup).

Thanks.

EDIT:

It looks like my choices are these:

http://www.led-grow-master.com/

http://www.sunlightsheds.com/led_systems.htm
 
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seriously, i researched it for a long time and fluorescents are unbeatable for growing (leafy) plants indoors ... led's aren't up to the job yet for the spectrums that plants need... some cheap aquarium bulbs are all that is needed for a full spectrum range and they are cheap :)
 
seriously, i researched it for a long time and fluorescents are unbeatable for growing (leafy) plants indoors ...

"Researched" where? Dope forums perhaps? :rolleyes:

.. led's aren't up to the job yet for the spectrums that plants need

Then why are we having superior results in the Reef world using LEDs over pretty much any type of light source? Trust me, the light requirements for certain type of hard corals is helluva lot more demanding than houseplants. We also aren't using chinese 'beehive' lamps based on 5mm LEDs. See the thread I posted below on this topic if you want to see some REAL LED plant lights that outclass even metal halide.

some cheap aquarium bulbs are all that is needed for a full spectrum range and they are cheap

Baloney. Cheap aquarium bulbs typically *don't* have the optimum spectral requirements for plant growth because they are designed to keep algae growth at a minimum. Also, plants *don't* require full spectrum bulbs with most plants only requiring blue light. Some species, mainly shade and evergreen types favor additional red spectra. So, according to my logic filter; Blue and sometimes red does not equal "full spectrum".

Why are most plants green.....because they reflect green/yellow...because they really don't want to absorb that spectra. So, if the plants are reflecting green back at you, why urban myth that full spectrum bulbs are required for plant growth?

In terms of PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation), all white LEDs have their primary blue spectrum line almost right on the main absorption line of clorophyll A. So the truth is that LEDs are superb for most plant growth and very efficient.

While some fluorescent tubes are great for plant growth, they tend to vary more in terms of spectral emission than white LEDs. Basically, a cool white fluorescent tube or CFL works just fine and is cheap. The problem with fluorescent tubes is they emit half their light in a direction typically away from where you need it. LEDs on the other hand throw almost 100% of their light in a 120degree cone which is a lot more efficient.

The advantage for fluorescents is that they are cheap per lumen. Using Mercaptan's scenario two good 24" T5's in a really good fixture are going to throw about 3500 lumens of light. If I set a target goal of 3000 lumens for LED I'll need about 20 XR-Es or half a dozen Bridgelux, and a big heatsink. The LED fixture will cost a lot more than the fluorescent fixture, but it will at least equal if not surpass the fluorescent one in terms of PAR.

IMHO, none of the LED fixtures Mercaptan linked are worth the money.
 
the absorption plot on the wikipedia page on photosynthesis bares striking reasamblace with typical led spectra so leds might actually be realy darn good to grow wee.. äm plants :nana:
edit: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Lichtabsorbtion_eines_buchenblattes.svg
its only one example but i think there wont be too much difference betwen plants (they all live under the same sun after all)
i think using royal blue wold worke as there is no real need for red ( the red peak is redundant becaus cloropyll a and b both have a peek in both red and blue) but i dont realy know what to doo about the beta-carotin line it just wont match up with leds verry well but maybe the royal blue is fine for it aswell
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The advantage for fluorescents is that they are cheap per lumen. Using Mercaptan's scenario two good 24" T5's in a really good fixture are going to throw about 3500 lumens of light. If I set a target goal of 3000 lumens for LED I'll need about 20 XR-Es or half a dozen Bridgelux, and a big heatsink. The LED fixture will cost a lot more than the fluorescent fixture, but it will at least equal if not surpass the fluorescent one in terms of PAR.

IMHO, none of the LED fixtures Mercaptan linked are worth the money.
lumens dont realy mater becaus its a unit used to massure how bright something seems not how much energy is radiated and in that point leds may be comparable or better than flurescent tubes
but i have to agree the linked fixtures arent worth it (too expansive and they use 5mm leds)
i cant really tell you how many you are going to need but it might be worth a try to experiment with royal blue XR-Es
 
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I've got some miniature chilies that have been very happy under LED's for over a month now. I did have to use a lot of low power 10mm blues to hit the chlorophyll a range, but the high power red's work great.

In fact, it would appear that the other reefer people get their reefs to grow even with the less than optimal wavelengths - http://www.ledgrow.eu/
 
I know there are comparisons of the various bin tints on CPF, but are there any emission spectra? I do work with spectroscopy on a daily basis, so I guess if I knew the relative output per wavelength I would be convinced that LEDs would work.

Then I would need the heatsink, and driver, and all that jazz. The initial cost would certainly trump that of the fluorescent, although, eh, part of the fun is building right?

Oh yeah, and for everyone thinking I want to grow weed... *sigh*

I'm trying to grow venus fly traps indoors. They're pretty cool little buggers.
 
I'm using CFL's now to grow some bhut jolokia's (world's hottest hot pepper) but I don't think its enough light and everyone on the hot pepper forum seems to think the same way. I don't want to go HID because of all the power it will eat up so some more info on growing with LED's would be great.

Anyone try one of the UFO lamps on ebay?
 
Previous thread on it:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=204092

IF you hit the peak photosynthetic responses in the blue and red region, you could in theory be much more efficient. LEDs are not that far behind HID in terms of lumens/W, but the theory is that if you create specifically the wavelengths the plants NEED (the whole green region is reflected, the energy's of no use to the plant), you could get the same photosynthesis rate with far less total lumens on it.

Meeting the blue peak in no problem. The red is a MAJOR problem, it's at 680nm and almost all red LEDs are like 630-635nm or red-orange 615-620nm, which has little response.

Very few makers of "deep red" 680nm LEDs. LEDEngin (Mouser) makes a big one at a sort of reasonable price. The lumens/W is deceptive. The lumen scale is compensated for human eye response, which is poor in the deep red 680nm range and highest in the red-orange range. So it scores low on the VISIBLE lumen scale, but scores much higher in terms of Photosynthetically Active Radiation, PAR, which is all you care about. In fact, despite widely varying visible lumen figures, I saw deep red, red, and red-orange have very similar" mW light out"/"mW power in" efficiency ratios once the human eye response of the lumen scale was factored out.

The makers of LED "grow lights" frequently sell useless 630-635nm red. Even if you find a supplier claiming "deep red 680nm", there's no telling if they'll actually provide you the wavelength claimed. How would you even tell, without something to measure wavelengths?

As best I can tell, photosynthesis requires BOTH the red and blue wavelengths. However, I'm not certain that this meets the needs of all plants. There are a number of possible channels for photosynthesis, and different plant may not grow the same with the same nutritional content when odd proportions of specific wavelengths are used. For example, that Wikipedia chart suggests the carotenoids may barely be fed at all by a blue/deep red source. I suspect what grows in reef aquariums could be different then Venus flytraps, strawberries, or corn. After all, the leaves are different colors in part BECAUSE the photosynthetic chemistry is different. In fact we can be sure of that with a reef tank because the plants evolved to grow underwater which filters out a lot of the red wavelengths, so they'll probably be evolved to not use red, at least not in the same way. The subject of what each type of plant needs does not seem to be well-researched. In fact the only halfway serious publicly available research seems to be done by pot growers.

They do seem to use many more reds than blues in grow lights. I don't know if they're doing that because they're using 635nm reds with very poor response, or if the plants actually need that much more more red than blue.

Your plants will look pretty sickly with red/blue on it. The photos I saw of plants growing that way showed black leaves with only a weak purple reflection, with the room lit in that reddish-purple hue. It wasn't pretty. The leaves absorbed all the incoming light and the usually reflected "green" wavelengths were absent.
 
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I'm using the Ledengin deep reds and it's certainly not pretty. I added a neutral white to try and mitigate the ugly and add some of the "trace" wavelengths, but the leaves are still mostly black. But the chilies like the light and that's who I built it for - though I did move it out of the living room to a more obscure corner of the house where I don't see it as often :D
 
Thanks Oznog, Garibaldi and jbos.

So what amount of light do you think is necessary for a 2 square foot area (1x2 feet, I suppose)? Could I get away with a two 5W deep red LEDs and two 5W blue LEDs?

What sort of a power supply would I use for these?

Maybe I'll throw in a nicely tinted MC-E or something just to make it all look pretty.
 
The red is a MAJOR problem
does the chloropyll need both red and blue to work ?? becaus both a and b have absorption in red AND blue so i thuoght red would be redundant..maybe im wrong.
I do work with spectroscopy on a daily basis, so I guess if I knew the relative output per wavelength I would be convinced that LEDs would work.
there is a thread some wehr on here that hase spectral analysis of all kinds of things ill search for it and post a link.
in the mean time you could just use the manufactur graphs in the datasheets (thy arent perfect but realy not that far off)
http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E.pdf (on page 5)
 
I'm using 6 5W reds, 1 5W neutral white, and 60 10mm 430nm blues to replace an Aerogarden CFL hood powered from a Xitanium driver (1050mA) with the current to the 10mm's limited by Supertex CL2's. The chilies have spread to about a 2x2' area under the original CFL's. They have been fruiting continuously for about a year on the standard "large nutrient" tablets and two week feeding schedule from Aerogrow. I've only had them under the LED's for about five weeks, but they have produced new fruit in that time.

Different wavelengths affect different plans in different ways. But basically all green plants interpret light as if it were coming from the sun. If they're getting sufficient blue, they think the sun is overhead and in the middle of summer, if they are getting all red, they think the sun is low and getting near the end of the year - standard atmospheric filtering of wavelengths. But how they deal with it depends on the specific plant, its genetics and heritage. Most need some combination of red and blue but the percentages vary in all the studies because of a number of variables. Besides the plant genetics, heat, humidity, watering, wind, CO2, etc. all play their parts and are seldom reported in the studies I've seen online.

The only rule in natural sciences is there are always exceptions to every rule, and the bell curves are huge and covered with spikes.
 
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I was able to scrounge up some laptop power supplies (all 18.5 volts, ~ 3.5-3.8 amps each) for free.

So, if I'm getting this right... a laptop power supply + a buckpuck at 1000 mA + a few of the Mouser Deep Red LEDs (5 watts) in series and I'm good to go?

Is there a good way I can do a heatsink?
 
I used the recommended heat sinks, also from Mouser, but they are a bit expensive @ $4.50 each.
 
a few of the Mouser Deep Red LEDs (5 watts) in series and I'm good to go?
can anyone point me to studys that show that red is needed at all ?? blue seems to be more efficient in terms of photosynthesis and also in terms of led efficiency. i have the feeling il have do do tests my self ( havnt anything planed for sience calsses yet anyway) :naughty:
 
I was able to scrounge up some laptop power supplies (all 18.5 volts, ~ 3.5-3.8 amps each) for free.

So, if I'm getting this right... a laptop power supply + a buckpuck at 1000 mA + a few of the Mouser Deep Red LEDs (5 watts) in series and I'm good to go?

Is there a good way I can do a heatsink?

IIRC the LEDEngin devices may not have an electrically neutral Star backing (not sure). Why you'd make an MCPCB without isolation is beyond me, and I may have misread, but be sure to figure this out.

Heatsinks are all about CPU heatsinks. Even the cheap ones are really good, and they're sized right. The ones with fans are even better.
 
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can anyone point me to studys that show that red is needed at all ?? blue seems to be more efficient in terms of photosynthesis and also in terms of led efficiency. i have the feeling il have do do tests my self ( havnt anything planed for sience calsses yet anyway) :naughty:
Well you can experiment if you want. I saw the 2-step "Z-scheme" and I kinda suspect the 2 steps, being different reactions, need different wavelengths, and without both the process would not complete.

No grow lights use only blue that I've seen. It's all red and blue, with reds significantly outnumber blues (like 3:1?) though number of emitters does not directly tell you how much light power is created.

Another theory on this. Photosynthetic rate plateaus out after a certain light intensity. So if you reach a light intensity that saturates the capacity to respond, additional light won't help. However, if there are 2 different energy channels, then I would bet that after you saturate the red channel and have nothing to gain by providing more red, that the blue channel will still provide more photosynthesis just fine until the blue channel is saturated as well. They're independent and it would be best to saturate both. Just a theory, I have nothing to back that up.

IIRC, the LED efficiency for deep reds is NOT less than blue. Eyes don't respond well to deep red, and the lumen scale is heavily biased against them.

Furthermore, photochemical effects typically respond on a per-photon basis. Blue photons have higher energy than red. But if you get 1 reaction per photon regardless of energy, the higher energy of blue will produce less reactions than red on a per-mW of light basis.

If you're not at work, Google through the pot growers' stuff. They do a lot of somewhat amateurish but still results-oriented "research".

Photosynthesis IS quantifiable simply by placing the plant in an airtight container with an accurate CO2 meter and light source. As the photosynthesis proceeds, it consumes CO2 and the CO2 level decreases. This takes only minutes or hours. This is certainly more practical than trying to measure plant growth. The plant's weight will have far more to do with the water in the potting soil.
 
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While I can't point you to a single, specific source (there's a lot of botany research out there), all plants need multiple wavelengths. Blue's and red's are the most actively absorbed by chlorophyll a and b, but photosynthesis is controlled by other pigments too. Like all biochemical processes, it's actually very complicated and affected by many elements. Each species of plant will have different needs for various wavelengths. You might get a given plant to grow under limited wavelengths, but they may grow short, or tall, or not flower and fruit. The leaves may be shaped oddly. Just like you can't feed them just nitrogen or just phosphorus, let alone all the other nutrients they need. Over time, you could probably get a strain to adapt to more limited wavelengths because that's evolution - survival by adaptation.
 
IIRC the LEDEngin devices may not have an electrically neutral Star backing (not sure). Why you'd make an MCPCB without isolation is beyond me, and I may have misread, but be sure to figure this out.

Yes, the stars are electrically neutral, the bare emitters are not.
 
Well you can experiment if you want. I saw the 2-step "Z-scheme" and I kinda suspect the 2 steps, being different reactions, need different wavelengths, and without both the process would not complete.

No grow lights use only blue that I've seen. It's all red and blue, with reds significantly outnumber blues (like 3:1?) though number of emitters does not directly tell you how much light power is created.

If you're not at work, Google through the pot growers' stuff. They do a lot of somewhat amateurish but still results-oriented "research".

Dope growers are where I started my LED grow light research because they had the most practical information published on the internet. But keep in mind that once again, that is one particular plant, and one that can grow under almost any conditions. Other plants need other wavelengths, nutrients, dark periods, etc.
 
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