Is it just me... or has JetBeam been doing down hill?

[peterharvey73]

Yeah, lately Jetbeam has gone a bit wonky.
Especially with their i4 Intellicharger which has had a recall.
Their RRT-0 XM-L driven hard to 550 lumens is also strange, considering that the bigger and more expensive RRT-2, RRT-15, and RRT-21 which are all powered by bigger 18650 batteries are only driven to some 480 lumens.

The RRT-0 XM-L is actually not overdriven - it's just driven hard, because XR-E R2's can be driven to about 1 amp recommended by Cree specifications.
Likewise XP-G R5 can be driven to around 1.5 amps maximum recommended by Cree.
XM-L's can be driven to 3 amps max recommended by Cree.
Only if the XM-L was driven beyond 3 amps would we say it is overdriven, if I'm not wrong?

What made the RRT-0 XM-L strange is that 16340 batteries have a low and slow discharge rate of only 1.5 amps.
The bigger 18650's have a much higher and faster discharge rate, eg an AW 18650 2900 mAH can discharge @ 5.8 amps, while a Redilast 3100 mAH can discharge at something like 6.2 amps.
So for some strange reason, the RRT-0 XM-L has been allowed to drive to 550 lumens, when a 16340 will typically only allow 1.5 amps.
Likewise, the bigger RRT-15, RRT-21, RRT-2 XM-L's can be driven to maximum Cree recommended specs of 3 amps to produce something like 750 lumens OTF ANSI, but they are only doing 460 or 480 - less than the smaller RRT-0 XM-L.
Strange?

Due to the slow maximum discharge rate of the 16340 batteries, I would recommend that the RRT-0 XM-L have a maximum output of some 400+ lumens similar to the Thrunite 1C, Lumapower Incendio V5, Sunwayman V10R XM-L T5 etc.
We shouldn't drive the emitter faster than the battery's maximum discharge rate.

The 18650 powered lights on the otherhand, can be driven all the way to 3 amps like the SC600 & the Thrunite TN11 & it's 300 meters of throw, and if the compact size of the single 18650 flashlight lacks mass to withstand the heat build up, then we put a thermal cut out protection circuitry in place.

Also strange is the budget BC25.
It is a cheap light, yet it has a copper heatsink and pumps out 650 lumens for 189 meters of throw, when the more expensive RRT-2 and RRT-21 XM-L pumps only 460 lumens for only 155 meters of throw.
Strange?
Despite the copper heatsink, the BC25 is still lighter than the other Jetbeam 18650 RRT-2 and RRT-21.

There are a few strange things going on with Jetbeam, so we godda watch out, but overall their lights are still of a high standard.
The quality of their annodising is superb; for example, I just got a brand new Zebralight SC600, and it's a superb concept of a compact 18650 with an ergonomic side switch, and a practical floody beam, however the quality of the SC600's aluminium milling and annodising, or whatever you call it, seems a bit unfinished, cheap and second rate compared to a typical Jetbeam which is superbly presented...

 

[Overclocker]

if going "downhill" means making more BC40-like lights then i'm all for it. tons of light for not a lot of money, exactly what i need

 

[Average Joe]

I tried out a couple of Jetbeam lights recently but returned them because of the really rough threads. On the M1X I tried, I had to use a whole lotta force to turn the head.
Kind of made me feel uneasy - like I was wearing out the threads. Same problem with the BA20 I bought not so long ago. Really rough threads (head loosen/tighten).
Maybe I just was unlucky both times, but since these are brand-name lights, I was expecting something more

 

[2100]

At one point I had all the RRT-2 versions. I tested them all side by side and I'm going from weight in my hand. It is a 100% fact that the old version (my favorite) had a heavy copper heat sink and the new version are no longer copper and no longer as heavy (due to less heat sink material). I suspect that is why they cannot drive their XML as hard as other XML lights of the same size. But...that is also why the new RRT-2 costs less than the oldest version.

No doubt about the weight, 10g in an A-B comparison is "feelable". The new RRT-2 XM-L is actually 5mm shorter and 1mm smaller in bezel, so that accounts for a bit too. It is just not a day and night difference, that is what i am referring to. I have quite a few single 18650 XM-L lights that are well into the 200g range.

Seriously I play with a heck lot of budget lights which are driven much much harder (over driven in fact) and lasers (yep copper heat sink there) as well and it's not really that there is insufficient heatsinking or what.... just probably a matter of staying too safe on the safe side (warranty). The copper heat sink is only responsible for wicking the heat out to the host faster. I actually done some tests on triple XM-Ls in which i have 2 drop-ins, one is very efficient in wicking heat to the host and another not so much, in 30 deg C heat both performed the same after a period of time, simply because the host is heat saturated and that is the limiting factor. At 460 lumens there really is not much heat to wick out.

Like peterheavey76 said, it IS wierd, the quite a bit smaller RRT-0 at only 76g is gunned quite a bit harder. PC51 is 51g and 550lm and is even smaller than RRT-0. BC25 is 650 lumens and same format size as RRT-2 but at 129g. Just makes no sense. Can't really say that the 460lm RRT-2 can't be driven harder.

But seriously I am just happy with low pricing and a solid light.

 

[member 6142]

Yeah, lately Jetbeam has gone a bit wonky.
Especially with their i4 Intellicharger which has had a recall.
Their RRT-0 XM-L driven hard to 550 lumens is also strange, considering that the bigger and more expensive RRT-2, RRT-15, and RRT-21 which are all powered by bigger 18650 batteries are only driven to some 480 lumens...........zip

Ditto

 

[coolperl]

At one point I had all the RRT-2 versions. I tested them all side by side and I'm going from weight in my hand. It is a 100% fact that the old version (my favorite) had a heavy copper heat sink and the new version are no longer copper and no longer as heavy (due to less heat sink material). I suspect that is why they cannot drive their XML as hard as other XML lights of the same size. But...that is also why the new RRT-2 costs less than the oldest version.

You might want to look at these old threads:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Jetbeam-Raptor-RRT-2/page4&highlight=jetbeam

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...tor-RRT-1-with-XP-G-R5-Nice!&highlight=alexgt

In the second link, there is RRT-1, but apart from head diameter, they share exactly the same internal design. Both with big, empty hole just under the led with minimum thermal compound. Also, there is no copper heatsink in RRT-2. The "yellow" metal part that threads to the battery tube is just a circuit housing and have nothing to do with direct cooling the LED. See above links. What's more important, it's not copper, it's brass, so even if it was LED heatsink, its thermal conductivity would be worse than aluminium.

Since the beginning, the internal design of Jetbeams was far from perfect. The heatsinking was poor, the circuits had poor efficiency, etc. Their machining quality and visual design was always good, but inside, there's a lot of stupid ideas and QC negligence.

 

[chadvone]

doing down hill

 

[2100]

You might want to look at these old threads:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Jetbeam-Raptor-RRT-2/page4&highlight=jetbeam

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...tor-RRT-1-with-XP-G-R5-Nice!&highlight=alexgt

In the second link, there is RRT-1, but apart from head diameter, they share exactly the same internal design. Both with big, empty hole just under the led with minimum thermal compound. Also, there is no copper heatsink in RRT-2. The "yellow" metal part that threads to the battery tube is just a circuit housing and have nothing to do with direct cooling the LED. See above links. What's more important, it's not copper, it's brass, so even if it was LED heatsink, its thermal conductivity would be worse than aluminium.

Since the beginning, the internal design of Jetbeams was far from perfect. The heatsinking was poor, the circuits had poor efficiency, etc. Their machining quality and visual design was always good, but inside, there's a lot of stupid ideas and QC negligence.

Hey bro, nice find and nice info there!

Yeah i guess that's brass. Anyway i think overall for XR-E and XM-L at ~ 1.3A that's pretty ok. Just to satisfy myself, i did a direct beam measurement (the spill) and got this for the RRT-2 XM-L and this is with 2 x 18350 (the Bestinone/powerwholesale.net IMRs, the ones which Shao.fu.tzer is selling) so i think the regulation should be pretty good as compared to single cell :

1st minute = 1083
2 mins = 1077
3 mins = 1073 (0.92% drop)
4th minute = 1070 (1.2% drop)
5th minute = 1067
6th minute = 1065
7th minute = 1063
8th minute = 1061 (2% drop)

This is actually among the best all in my budget lights but the thing is, it's not driven hard. (I don't own that many "branded/premium" lights so can't compare LOL!)

As I mentioned/guessed in my posts above, maybe from the die to the MCPCB (is there one? Not sure how it's mounted for the XM-L) to the host is pretty decent. I mean it's only 1 over amp.

So I guess we will still be buying our Crelant, Shadow, Balder at BLF. Believe it or not, the Fandyfire STL-V2 is slightly better at 2.8amps but that's a big 2 x 18650 light. Still waiting for the 7G5.

Fandyfire STL-V6 budget light = 1022,1018, 1014, 1010 (1st/2nd/3rd/4th min) 1.17% drop

Sunwayman T40CS (2 x 18650 light) : 1051, 1044, 1038, 1033 1.7% drop after 4th minute. 1.7% drop

 

[roadkill1109]

I think we should not fault Jetbeam for their low budget lights, i believe they are just expanding their portfolio to cover more markets. they still have high-end lights and specialized lights, so flashaholics like us can get our fill of the various options out there. Sysmax is the company that makes Jetbeams and Nitecores.

I dont have anything against Jetbeam and find their lights to be quite cool, albeit there may be some bad eggs (nobody's perfect) but otherwise good, dependable lights!

Road out!

 

[357mag1]

Unfortunately Jetbeam lights have been anything but dependable for me. My Jet-1 Pro EX is dying and my M1X died. Before I started having trouble with my Jetbeam lights I liked my M1X and RRT-1 so much I bought a second of each. Unfortunately the second RRT-1 didn't perform anything like the first. Much weaker beam. Even worse the M1X was changed to a shallower reflector so my second M1X didn't throw nearly as well as my first. In fact the second M1X was beat out by all three of my TK40s in throw and overall output.

At that point I decided no more Jetbeam products due to spotty quality control. But my troubles weren't over because shortly after that the second M1X failed (fortunately repaired under warranty) and then my Jet Pro-1 EX started to die. It is out of warranty.

I will stick with my Fenix (lifetime warranty through one of our retailers) and 4Sevens (ten year warranty). Their lights aren't perfect though the Quark Turbos (not counting the new XML version) come close for me. I've also had good luck with Olight, wouldn't trade my SR-90 for anything out there.

Surefires have been flawless if a little behind the times.

The only faulty lights I've purchased have been Night Core and Jetbeam. I believe they are affiliated.

I have well over 300 lights and over 40 of some brands so it isn't like I just got lucky due to the small samplings. If the Jetbeams I purchased were reliable I would have many more.

 

[B0wz3r]

Don't get me wrong, I like JetBeam lights....

Anyone else share the same sentiments about JetBeam?

You might want to be careful about expressing negative opinions on a particular company's lights here. If one of the advertisers objects, the mods will drop an anvil on you for it.

 

[Derek Dean]

B0wz3r, I think it has more to do with how those opinions are expressed, and while that can be quite a subjective call, somebody has to make the decision on when a poster crosses the line. For the most part I think the mods get it right more often than not.

And as to the original assertion that Jetbeam has been going downhill, from what I've seen it appears to vary from model to model. Some of their products have fantastic build quality, while a few have had quality control issues.

I imagine that most companies are facing difficult decisions in today's economy, and hopefully Sysmax will keep their focus on producing a few quality products, while not restraining their R & D department.

 

[firelord777]

+1

As our parents used to say, if you are not going to say something nice, dont't say it at all.

But then again, who really remembers that 24/7?

As for the topic, I dont have any jetbeams, but their BC40 seems to be all right,

Best wishes, Firelord

 

[aimxplode]

+1

As our parents used to say, if you are not going to say something nice, dont't say it at all.

But then again, who really remembers that 24/7?

As for the topic, I dont have any jetbeams, but their BC40 seems to be all right,

Best wishes, Firelord

While I would agree with you, this isn't about hurting someones feelings. This is about making an educated purchase as a consumer.

 

[jcw122]

I remember entering the flashlight market and thinking how cool Jetbeam was because of the programmability, so YES. To see their current offerings is disappointing. I don't treat them as a quality light maker anymore. Waterproof to 2M? That's only 7ft....

 

[jimmy1970]

My first and favourite Jetbeam is the original Jetbeam Military III R2 - a really nicely built light. A local dealer has them for $40 with free local shipping!!! - Just picked up another one!

James

 

[firelord777]

While I would agree with you, this isn't about hurting someones feelings. This is about making an educated purchase as a consumer.

Well buddy, I guess you do have a point there, but what I really meant was refraining from what some call rants. Unless its an issue like a company not honoring warranty, which I would love to hear about, but not dedicated posts designed to degrade a company's reputation. A cool debate with constuctive critisicm is all I would like to see.

Best wishes, Firelord

 

[lautamas]

Altough I am not in the mood to be at the side of Jetbeam, I need to admit that some of their torches do really work and survive over the year.
However, out of 10 models that they release, at least 4 of them are failing. When I say fail, it might fail within the QC (DOA) or surviving in customer's hand no more than 3 months (2:5 ratio for retured unit: units sold).
We have been selling Jetbeam since 2007 and got sick and tired of their bad quality torches. However, again, some of their torches are very good.
Lately, with the release of 'not ready for market' torches and overrated lumens, Jetbeam has set a new low against their already the top guy on the list.

Unlike Fenix who are still playing conservately, Jetbeam seems to target people who only look at their screen when deciding a torch. Needless to admit, they also have one of the most beautiful looking torches among competitors. Along with their magnetic ring, Jetbeam has won in cosmetic department for people who are not familiar with torches.
If you are really familiar with torches and how the construction is assembled, you can tell everyone to stay away from Jetbeam at this moment.

In good hands, I am sure Jetbeam will win over the competition. They have the hours in producing torches. They sure have the marketing skill (and good photography skill as well ). So, a better QC and quality of torches is just what they need to win customers over.


Wait..one more thing.of course ..the prices...

 

[aimxplode]

Altough I am not in the mood to be at the side of Jetbeam, I need to admit that some of their torches do really work and survive over the year.
However, out of 10 models that they release, at least 4 of them are failing. When I say fail, it might fail within the QC (DOA) or surviving in customer's hand no more than 3 months (2:5 ratio for retured unit: units sold).
We have been selling Jetbeam since 2007 and got sick and tired of their bad quality torches. However, again, some of their torches are very good.
Lately, with the release of 'not ready for market' torches and overrated lumens, Jetbeam has set a new low against their already the top guy on the list.

Unlike Fenix who are still playing conservately, Jetbeam seems to target people who only look at their screen when deciding a torch. Needless to admit, they also have one of the most beautiful looking torches among competitors. Along with their magnetic ring, Jetbeam has won in cosmetic department for people who are not familiar with torches.
If you are really familiar with torches and how the construction is assembled, you can tell everyone to stay away from Jetbeam at this moment.

In good hands, I am sure Jetbeam will win over the competition. They have the hours in producing torches. They sure have the marketing skill (and good photography skill as well ). So, a better QC and quality of torches is just what they need to win customers over.


Wait..one more thing.of course ..the prices...

I agree everything you said. I'm a huge Jetbeam fan and have the RRT-0 S2, PA40, and 2x BA20's. My RRT-0 has survived some pretty hard drops, and one of my BA20s is on grill duty, which gets greasy and hot. All of my Jetbeams work as good as the day I got them.

My disappointment with Jetbeam began when they started overdriving their lights to extreme lumens. I mean, who really needs a 1x RCR123 light to put out 500+ lumens for a measly 15 minutes? Coupled with questionable QC/rush release, I don't like where Jetbeam is currently going. Their new line of lights looks absolutely amazing, and they are a great company. I really do hope they fix their problems and return to the old Jetbeam that I know and love.

 

[peterharvey73]

I have purchased four traditional type pure throw Jetbeams in the last 7 months: TC-R2 S2, RRT-0 S2, RRT-2 XP-G R5, RRT-3 SST-50.
I also have one new modern design pure flood Nitecore TM11 Triple XM-L.
All no problems.

My friend has had his new flood-thrower type RRT-0 XM-L running on AW 16340 for about 6 weeks now.
He runs them on both AW IMR and AW RCR chemistries - no difference in brightness - may as well use RCR for added cell protection.

I only had one RRT-0 S2 with a "pre-flash" - on a low lumen setting, it would do a single blinding flash like a camera flash, before it turned on like normal.
I returned it, and Jb sent me a new one instantly.

I think Jetbeam's main problem recently has been the i4 Charger lemon - which was later recalled!
All the major manufacturer's have small glitches in their flashlights from time to time...