Is the SF KL1 LED head still considered tactical?

[mcb7777]

I have a Surefire E2D Defender, and I bought a KL1 head for it, just because I wanted to save on the battery consumption. My question to all the experts out there is: Is the KL1 LED head still bright enough to be considered a "tactical" light where if I shine someone in the face, it'll disorientate them temporarily? From what I read, it's only 30 lumens when the Incan light that the E2D came with is 60 lumens. The KL1 LED head seems plenty bright and with the white color of the light, it almost seems on par with the MN03. I bought the E2D because my neighborhood has gone down hill the past year or two and I like to have a powerful flashlight with me when I walk my dog at night. The E2D seemed like a perfect choice, except for the 75 min run time of the MN03 lamp.

So, what do the experts out there think? Is the 30 lumen KL1 strong enough to temporarily blind someone? Is there a minimum level of lumens for this?

Hope it's not a stupid question.

 

[AR_Shorty]

I believe someone determined that at least 60 lumens is necessary for tactical disorientation purposes.

 

[Dinan]

I have a Surefire E2D Defender, and I bought a KL1 head for it, just because I wanted to save on the battery consumption. My question to all the experts out there is: Is the KL1 LED head still bright enough to be considered a "tactical" light where if I shine someone in the face, it'll disorientate them temporarily? From what I read, it's only 30 lumens when the Incan light that the E2D came with is 60 lumens. The KL1 LED head seems plenty bright and with the white color of the light, it almost seems on par with the MN03. I bought the E2D because my neighborhood has gone down hill the past year or two and I like to have a powerful flashlight with me when I walk my dog at night. The E2D seemed like a perfect choice, except for the 75 min run time of the MN03 lamp.

So, what do the experts out there think? Is the 30 lumen KL1 strong enough to temporarily blind someone? Is there a minimum level of lumens for this?

Hope it's not a stupid question.

Well I'm not sure about the lumen cutoff for this kind of thing but my new E1L rated at 30 lumens is pretty bright in the eyes because of the more focused beam I'm guessing. Also, LED's seem to be more irritant than incans since I guess incan beams are more natural looking. That said, the E1L and E2D I have both appear bright enough to kill my night vision, the E2D being a tad brighter but also the beam isn't as tight so at farther distances they seem the same. On fresh batteries the E2D does a better job of "overloading" my eyes with light so I'm guessing that's what the goal is

 

[KeyGrip]

SureFire's minimum for what the call "tactical" is 60 lumens. Keep in mind that the effectivness of shining a flashlight in someone's face will vary greatly with a few factors like ambient light, the determination of the attacker, and if the attacker is on any drugs. Do you have any self defence training? If you do, have you practiced using the flashlight as a defensive weapon? If you don't have training, it would be wise to get some if you expect a confrontation. The ability of light to stop an attacker is vastly overrated in my opinion, and might lure a user into a false sense of security. Short answer: No, the KL1 is not bright enough.

 

[lightemup]

Short Answer: No. Aim for at least 100 lumens, more like 200 lumens.

Long Answer:

Is it tactical? Depends on how you define tactical. Can you beat the hell out of it, is it reliable, does it have long runtime, is it modular etc? Yes.

Is it bright enough to temporarily disorientate / confuse someone? Perhaps, in a VERY dark environment at point blank range. Surefire talks about 60 lumens being the minimum amount for what I believe your intended purpose is. IMHO you should be aiming for at least 100 lumens, and more like 200 lumens. Especially in urban areas there is alot of 'dirty' light from streetlamps / buildings etc.

If it is completely dark the effect is more substantial. But when you have deployed the light, you've now created some more problems, of which I will mention 3:

1. You've given away your position (i.e. strobe and move because you've just created a 'fatal funnel' for bullets / knife attack etc)

2. You have only temporarily gained the initiative and only have a couple of seconds at best to do something else: flight / fight etc.

3. If you've just flashed someone in the eyes, if they weren't angry before, they most probably are now (i.e. negotiations are now over )

Sure every now and again someone will react like a deer in car headlights, but this the exception. Some won't even react at all to the light, they will stare it down and engage with whatever vision / other senses they have left. If it resolves the situation and the threat is no more, that's great! Just don't bet the farm on it, have other tools and/or action plans available.

As has been suggested, undertaking some training, even if it consists of you and a buddy (or even a mirror). HOW DO YOU REACT to it? How do others react?

I've found 200 lumens is about right to RELIABLY make people look away etc. But then you need to be more aware of factors like 'splashback.' In other words blinding yourself from your own light, especially indoors (mirrors at the end of hallways aren't that fun to light up!).

Hope that helps

 

[lightemup]

BTW Welcome to CPF

 

[mcb7777]

Thanks everyone for your advice, all very helpful. I'll keep the KL1 LED for the camping trips, and stay with the 60 lumen incandescent for the late night dog walks. I like the size of the E2D so I don't think I'll be able to switch to a 100-200 lumen light, but hopefully 60 lumens will be strong enough to do the trick if needed. If anything, I think it would be helpful to identify a bump in the night as a bad guy or a cat rooting through a garbage can.
I guess that leads me to a new question, would the KL1 have a farther "throw" than the MN03 ican bulb? With that magnifying glass lens, it seems like the KL1 might have the advantage here. The ican bulb seems more "flood" like. Or is that just my eyes?
I'm pretty new to using flashlights as another form of self defense, hence my questions. As pointed out, I realize the limitations of a flashlight, but I do like the idea of an additional non-lethal option to get out of a bad situation. If a flash in the eyes gives me a second or two to get my dog and I out of dodge, then I'm all for it. Plus, that "strike bezel" seems like it would leave a mark if it ever came to that. Anything that prevents a bad encounter from escalating is a good thing right?
I do have quite a bit self-defense traing, but none using flashlights. Seems like a good idea to take some more classes. Always room for more training right?
Great advice from everyone, glad to be part of this forum.

 

[Brizzler]

A KL1 with an upgraded LED (I have one with an SSC P4 and an McR20s) will give you more lumens (80+ using stock driver) than an MN03, will be more shockproof than the incan while having better runtime characteristics (flatter, longer curve) -more "tactical"(?). And you can use a range of cell configurations incl. rechargables without problems.
Of course if you'd rather have a good incan then maybe a Lumens Factory bulb upgrade could give you more than 60lumens to play with.

 

[mcb7777]

I know Surefire made two versions of the KL1, and I do have the updated version of the magnifying glass type lens, but I thought it was only 30 lumens per the SF website. If this new version of the Surefire KL1 is rated at 80+ lumens, then that changes everything. It does seem aweflly bright for only 30 lumens, but I attributed that to the white color of a LED light vs. the yellow light of ican. Are you sure it's rated at 80+?

 

[lightemup]

I believe Brizzler's kl1 is modded (according to his post)

 

[270winchester]

where did you see the 80+ figure?

I know Surefire made two versions of the KL1, and I do have the updated version of the magnifying glass type lens, but I thought it was only 30 lumens per the SF website. If this new version of the Surefire KL1 is rated at 80+ lumens, then that changes everything. It does seem aweflly bright for only 30 lumens, but I attributed that to the white color of a LED light vs. the yellow light of ican. Are you sure it's rated at 80+?

 

[RedLED]

I like the SureFire L4.

The L4 has 100 lumens, and is a very nice size for self defense carry.

Redled

 

[LukeA]

It's not about lumens, it's about lux. Lots of lux. I can't recommend any light under 10k lux for self-defense.

It's been my experience (shining lights into my eyes from arm's length with night-adapted vision) that 3k lux or so produces a reaction like "wow, that thing's pretty bright", but I can still see or attack it. 10k lux produces a reaction more like, "My eyes! My eyes! What the hell was that?" It's much, much more disorienting. Admittedly, no light will buy you very much time, but a 10k lux light will buy you much more than a dimmer light.

Reference lights: MTE 1 mode SSC and Pelican 7060.

The only lights I feel I can recommend that you carry for self-defense are the Pelican 7060, MRV, Tiablo A8 or A9, SF M6, Borealis, or multi emitter Mag Mod/incan mag mod.

 

[jcompton]

If you are "expecting" a confrontation, tactical training is #1 and worth every penny especially since it may save your life. #2 would be to avoid the confrontation at all costs. If #2 is an impossibility, then as far a tac light goes I would recommend a SF X200A as well as your "frame" of choice for mounting.

 

[Monocrom]

30 Lumens = More for runtime.

Considering that about an hour is all you get with a stock E2d, I can understand getting a KL1 head to improve runtime. But it won't be as bright as the stock inca set-up on that light.

I recently realized that out of the handful of Surefires I own, I only have one LED model. Love my L4, but wanted to convert a couple of my inca Surefires into LED models. And I'd rather use Surefire parts to do it. (No cheap aftermarket Cree in my Surefires). I can wait for Surefire to start offering the G2L's LED set-up for those who own G2s. Convert one of my G2s....

I figured I'd get a KL3 head for one of my other lights, and remembered a B&M store that sells it. When I saw how many lumens it puts out, I decided better to buy a KL4 or KL5. Surefire heads alone are pricey! But in the end I decided on a KL5. Either going to convert my C2 into basically an L5, or possibly get a 9P for the KL5 head.