Let's design a road front light beam

swhs

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I Do believe in Daytime Running Lights. If it helps for cars, then why should it not help bicycles and velomobiles? Which is exactly why I drive around with the B&M IQ Cyo and an additional helmet light (White in front, red in back).

You do get a lot of funny looks and remarks under way, but you also get that when you ride a velomobile without the helmet light :D

"If it helps" isn't the point. It shouldn't be done (and I think BrianMC misunderstood what I meant in thinking I don't like small daytime lights and that I think running the full beam is better, well, that's not what I mean).

My thoughts are placed here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~swhs/fiets/tests/verlichting/irritant_en.html#lampen_overdag

Summary: All daytime lights attract attention away from things/people without lights (cats crossing the street, children playing on the pavement that you must watch as they may step onto the street at any time etc).

I also don't like to be riding somewhere and have lights shining all the time. The whole road will be one big christmas tree, not just at night but during the day.

Daytime lights helping cars? I don't think so. One country (austria?) reversed its decision
on these lights too.

I've got the study from Reelight about daytime lights which I will analyse on my website later (already done, but need to reread etc first).

I think all this crap is insane. If they want less people killed on the roads: lower speed limits and even better, don't drive cars. What's next: A watergun spraying each pedestrian near a road by all cars because that would make it safer? Sure it would but it would make things incredibly uncomfortable for pedestrians. I would only agree daytime lights are useful if they are not annoying in *any* way. So no dipped beam (think bumps), no pulsed low frequency lights (these light designers often just seem to be morons!), no point source lights (use diffuser), not too bright, etc.
 

BrianMc

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I think this is a case where we may have to agree to disagree or find some aspects we agree with and others, not so much.

The case for or against Daytime running lights, IMHO is in large part a case of vehicle, cyclist, pedestrian, and pet density, plus informational overload on the routes we tavel. So I suspect this environment is a huge factor in whether Daytime running lights do more harm than good. I think they were very effective when motorcycles, small sports cars an a smattering of other vehicles ran lights in the day. I am not so sure that if everyone does, people just get used to them and they are ignored. That might be the Austrian conclusion. On that possibility, a helmet and light on the bike makes an unusual vertical pair and stands out.

A case for:
I have been driving with my lights on since my first car, a British Racing Green MGB which had features that caused problems for other drivers and as a result, for me and Kathryn.

Firstly, it was a color that melded with asphault roads especially when they were wet and it was overcast (commonly together). This rendered it a kind of invisibility cloak/steath aspect. Secondly, it was narrrow and low so the proportions made it look like a larger vehicle farther away. Once I began driving with lights on, the numbers of left and right hooks requiring immediate evasive manoevers dropped to almost none. This is anecdotal and I did not collect data. However the anxiety level dropped noticeably when adrenalin isn't called on so frequently. :) This was in urban, suburban, and rural driving in Southern Ontario. Denser than most of Canada, less dense that NL, I imagine. Driving licensing procedures were a bit more strict then and there than they are here and now.

We have continued to use my lights in the day and between us we have over 1.5 million miles (2.4 million km) with only one accident each, caused by the other driver, and neither were from not being seen. Again anecdotal.

I am one of the very few regular cyclists in town. Drivers looked through me. I was invisible not to a few but to almost all drivers. Hooks were commonplace. Since running lights in the daytime? Hooks are rare and I have aimed my flashing helmet. It has avery narrow beam and stopped 4 cars that were rolling into a potential hook. I cannot prove they would have proceeded but all others that looked like that proceeded with the hook. Oncoming drivers are not in my cone of bright headlights but can see them readily. I likely shine in people's mirrors but those can be adjusted, or they can pull away. Riding two-way cycle paths 2 m wide would be rude with the same lights on unless aimed well down.

The percentage of vehicles with daytime headlights has risen, and I have found no grade or bump issue with brightness whenthey were oncoming as long as they were on their side of the road (something that is not guaranteed on rural roads here). The only times I have are under low light conditions like a bad storm or civil dawn or dusk when you simply can't see dark colored vehicles without lights, so a momentary glare is a small price to pay.

If my lights distracted a driver so they hit a pedestrian, that would bother me. I don't see this as likely, if the pedestrian is doing as they should. Or the parents of young ones do as they should. I have come close to several recently at night wearing dark clothes and carrying no light, and yes the car lkghts of a vehicle turning into the raod further up distracted me some. That was not the fault of that driver's lights nor mine.

I like cats, but if it is a case of making free range cats safer when the dart into traffic (and which eat the wild birds in my yard), or making me safer, well, I am a bit self centered there, I'm afraid.

If we could get people to not talk on phones or anything but paying attention to driving, not be surprised by a cyclist, especially a fairly quick one, then I could ride like I did 30 yeras ago, with just a reflector and light colored clothing in the day. Every driver I have met who has seen my lights, compliments them and my effort to be seen. I don't want a neighbor to hit me as much for my injuries and their mental and financial health.

Anyway, that's the way I see it from the roads I must travel. YMMV a lot.
 
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Marcturus

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I've got the study from Reelight about daytime lights which I will analyse on my website later (already done, but need to reread etc first).
Oh no, not another DRL "study." Has Dutch SWOV gotten sued already, for their farcical methods in pushing DRL?
 

Steve K

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That is an interesting light, and reminds me of some of my own projects. My only issue with this light, in regards to its prospects as a host, is the apparent lack of heatsinking. I don't see any aluminum that would dissipate heat. ...or did I miss it?

The other concern would be the beam pattern. Is there any info on this?

Otherwise, I can see the attraction. My preference is to run the LED at 1A or so, in order to get a decent run time. With a good led, this seems reasonable (and this is why I need to rework one of my lights that has a Lux III).

regards,
Steve K.
 

znomit

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That is an interesting light, and reminds me of some of my own projects. My only issue with this light, in regards to its prospects as a host, is the apparent lack of heatsinking. I don't see any aluminum that would dissipate heat. ...or did I miss it?

See the user pics for the innards. Thats why I said "host"... as it is you wouldn't want to put a lot of power through it.
 

Savvas

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"DX have a cheapish(33$) host gagging for some DIY action."

I plan on getting one of these for the very purpose you mention! I'll post a report when it arrives...
Savvas
 

BrianMc

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It is an interesting road beam reflector source. With a 3 W light, figure 2.5 watts of heat, so if exposed to the airstream, needs 2 inches minimum, up to 3 inches. As I read the dimensions, the smallest is OD at 1.77 so the squarish tab behind the reflector is about 1-1.5 sq. in. and the rest is about another 2 or so, but no venting. Hmmm. Looks like it could use a new housing, anyway as most plastics don't shed heat well and the air between is a great thermal insulator. The LED appears to be close to XP-G size by that micrometer. Still be tempted to see what it would do with an XM-L. I have one of these which is 2 1/4" ID, 2 3/8" OD chrome plated aluminum. About 14 square inches. Enough to keep an XM-L cool with a good thermal path to it even at 3 W. A bit heavier than I'd hoped (no scale, sorry, copper/nickel/chrome plated, and 1.5 mm thick walls, except for a 1/2 " band near the front where they are about 2 mm thick so will move heat throughout rapidly), but some ways to lighten it. So about 1/4 inch all around play for this reflector. Looks like a half scale classic bike lamp, so should look good on my good bike if I can get the housing a bit lighter.

BrianMc
 

Steve K

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See the user pics for the innards. Thats why I said "host"... as it is you wouldn't want to put a lot of power through it.

I assumed that "host" meant that you could drop a LED and perhaps electronics into it. Adding heatsinking and modifying to permit airflow (perhaps) is more of a significant modification. The optics and housing could still be useful, depending on what the beam looks like. The battery holder is a nice feature too. Sorta reminds me of my intentions to modify a Cateye Micro II with a LED & optics, regulator, and heatsinking. I'm expecting it to be a bit homely by the time it's done, whereas this DX light could likely survive relatively unscarred.

Steve K.
 

Steve K

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Here's the money shot:

http://www.dealextreme.com/customer...2138-12514670-7668-4684-acef-f11f03b3df04.jpg

There is a bit of heatsinking, but it's not exposed to the moving air outside the light (unlike, say, the B&M Cyo).

It might be possible to add a thermal path to a bit of finned heatsink at the lower exterior of the light. It shouldn't much risk of water intrusion that way.

Or.. add some ductwork to bring in some air. I recall a post some time ago where the jet engine intakes from a plastic model airplane were added to the headlight in order to bring cooling air into the light. Pretty clever, and looked nice.

Steve K.
 

BrianMc

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We discussed the issue of tamed road beams not providing for much 'to be seen' light at night and certainly in the day. While bright and reflective clothing shows up in sunlight as well as powerful headlights and better than most tail lights; night, post-dawn, pre-sunset, and overcast conditions reduce the effectiveness markedly. Many of us try to avoid such riding, but it is not always possible commuting. Being identified as a bike with the plethora of distractions both in and outside of vehicles in competition with us is a daunting task.

This post in MTBR is not exhaustive, but lists some options to make the wheels show up and scream: "BICYCLE!". A major share of car-bike accidents are from the side or side angles, most of those are between 5 and 11 PM, and the most of the deadliest ones at night, in intersections. This is similar to rear collisions. Though rare, they are more likely at night and more serious when they happen. No data on lights used by the cyclists involved, so we can only conjecture that well lit bikes and easily seen cyclists show up less frequently in the statistics. Be seen or be hit. Most of us report better sharing of the road by motorists when we have good lights.

I was wondering about using 2 Q3 very warm white XP-Gs (the have a very high yellow to red output and about 93 lumens @ 350 mA, up to 250 @ 1.2 A as 1.5 A gives more heat than light, with amber lenses per side per wheel in front red-orange in back and hub mounted batteries. Should be bright enough to do in the day what the wheel lights in the link above do at night and be backed off to save night vision at other times with a multi level/mode driver like a B2Flex . "Overspray" glare would not be an issue in daylight. Would a single one per side balanced opposite each other be enough or would it take a pair per side per wheel? If this idea is of interest, I'll start a new thread.

It was a light bike, now with the battteries and LED units, it's heavier and 'light bike' takes on new meaning. :)

BriainMc
 

mfj197

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That DX light is a good find znomit, and as BrianMc says it could be a good reflector source. I'm just finishing off a pair of lights that use XM-Ls firing downwards into half-reflectors but the reflectors I've ended up with came from butchering my wife's very old halogen light! The principle works well though.
 

BrianMc

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His thread is here in this forum. A good excuse to link in to this thread. So those interested will see it.

I also took my latest road lights to a new thread. A narrow spot for close, a die projection beam like an aspheric for middle, and the aspheric stacked headlight beams for far.

BrianMc
 

trout

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I wanted to show you guys this video of my Spidereyes light I have mounted it on the bars as a
road experiment ( though I try and stay off road as much as possible )



there is virtually no sideways spill for the aspheric beam
A bit of food for thought though I thimk BrianMc has ordered some lenses to play with .
 

BrianMc

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There is virtually no sideways spill for the aspheric beam.
A bit of food for thought though I thimk BrianMc has ordered some lenses to play with .

Nice video. My camera isn't as good. ;( It is about what I pictured.

That was the idea behind my triple XP-G aspheric helmet light. The cutoff is great. Ideally you would like a trapezoidal beam that is brighter at the narrower top end. I separated my three beams too much vertically in the second iteration, and the bottom two beams overlapped too much in the first. I am planning to revise it after I test and build a triple XP-E, XP-G. XM-L light using three 27.2 mm aspheric lenses to get my crude trapezoid with higher light intensity at the top XP-E beam, lowest with the XM-L. The old light may become my walking/headband light.

The IRIS and XM-L almost gives a die projection alone but has some with easily dealt with spill. Great for middle distance. The EVA is a nice very sightly floody spot for close and side output under the hood to ditches 5-10 feet ahead. They just flat outshine the aspheric XP-E/2 XP-G helmet light and overdrive with an extra heat sink will likely not be enough.

I also have two 3 1/8" Al reflectors you showed (one to experiment on, one to use) coming with the LED's for a 4" Al Bullet housing that approximates the shape of a classic bike light. If it works out, I may use it on a bike, if not so good, it may end up on my lawn tractor. Two XM'Ls in a classic hi/low setup with one firing center forward for high beam, the other down like mfj197's lights for the low (except the top part of the reflector will still be there).

A dyno tail light is first up.

BrianMc
 

Marcturus

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It looks like the Hella HL 2000 uses a collimating optic, yet Peter White reports that it produces an ECE style cutoff beam with gradient brightness:

hl%202000%20bulk%20new%20wb.jpg


(Image from http://www.spanninga.nl/xhtml/product_details.php?l=en&tid=&nid=&cid=9&pid=13&q=)

HL2000-full-power-web.jpg


(This last image from http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/headlights.asp)

Does anyone know more about the optic used in this light?

-Jim G

The above post from page 2 seems the most appropriate to add this to ...

If anyone in Europe still wants the K411 optic of Hella's HL 2000 Micro LED, you can get one (plus a lot of mechanically flimsy, but awfully smelly plastics) in this TP 2500 set by Spannninga. Produced around Y2007 in China, it's cheap, just 10 euros if you're in the Netherlands, payment and shipping elsewhere gets more tricky and expensive:

http://www.internet-bikes.com/en/index.php?p=513&id=4688

The optic features a distinct segment below the LED and produces a narrow, acceptably even, cut-off beam, I'd guess in the 2001 to 2500 cd range for the version with the white-colored plastic emitter on a black mcpcb. But maybe the product name and packaging isn't really indicative of anything, and the seller is correct just claiming 1000+. Might work better with brighter leds featuring similarly sized dies. If you intend to re-assemble the lamp, take note of the wiring's position and the led's original orientation after pulling up the black & golden parts, then proceed to carefully pull up the optic and the led.

There is a video showing the TP 2500 set and some disassembly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePUXOSXqHhk
(Hella HL 2000 Spanninga Bicycle light set Unboxing ...)

It claims to show the HL2000 with a 7 watt LED inside, producing 6000 cd. I don't believe the data, and the beam isn't shown, but it seems achievable once you build your own lamp with the optic.
 
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