Li-Ion Motorcycle battery?

[poormanq45]

I was just wondering.

What would it take to make a li-ion battery pack that could be used in a motorcycle.

The voltage of the charging system ranges from 12v to 15v.

The pack would obviously have to be safe.

The charging system is always running. So overvoltage would be an issue I'd think.

In the motorcycle the battery is constantly in use. You can not disconnect the battery while the bike is running or the bike will die instantly.

The battery has to take the draw of the starter. So high discharge rates are needed.

Thank you for the input.

Oh, the reason I was looking in to this are for weight savings and/or a possible capacity increase in the same size space.

 

[march.brown]

I was just wondering.

What would it take to make a li-ion battery pack that could be used in a motorcycle.

The voltage of the charging system ranges from 12v to 15v.

The pack would obviously have to be safe.

The charging system is always running. So overvoltage would be an issue I'd think.

In the motorcycle the battery is constantly in use. You can not disconnect the battery while the bike is running or the bike will die instantly.

The battery has to take the draw of the starter. So high discharge rates are needed.

Thank you for the input.

Oh, the reason I was looking in to this are for weight savings and a possible capacity increase in the same size space.

If you want to save weight, go for a bike that has magneto ignition and a kick-start ... I don't know whether there are any modern bikes using this system, but there were oldies that did.

I wouldn't risk using Li-Ions on a Motorcycle ... Read the threads on Li-Ion and you will see that they need to be treated with care.
.

 

[herulach]

I have no idea what the starter will draw, I know car starters can be upwards of 200A on bigger engines, I suspect bikes will be lower, but probably still upward of 100A.

LiPo is probably the most practical, so you'll need to get up to 6/7ah from at a 4 cell pack, so you're talking upwards of $400 (batterystation prices) maybe more like $5/600 to build in some extra capacity, and thats before you've even started on a charging system, which I'm guessing would be a pain, as I'd be surprised if you could charge faster than the bike drains it.

Short version, you might be able to do it, but it will be very expensive, probably not that safe, and may mess with the ECU (nominal voltage at 14v, maybe a bit high for sustained use, I don't know)

 

[poormanq45]

For the actual pack I was thinking RC packs should be sufficient.

Something like this:
http://www.batteryjunction.com/tenergy-31151.html

Two of those in series. There max draw is 150amps for 5 seconds.

Because the voltage is 3.6~3.7 nominal do you think it would be better to go with 11.1V or 14.8V? I am thinking that with a 14.8 pack the charging system wouldn't be able to charge the pack properly.

I would think that 11.1v should be able to spin the starter. Maybe two 11.1 packs in parallel to minimize voltage drop.

I have read the Li-Ion dangers post before. As long as the protection and charging circuits are properly setup there shouldn't be an issue.

There isn't an issue with these cells being vibrated constantly is there?

*edit* The starter draw is around 90 amps

 

[ICUDoc]

Li-ion batteries are, to my mind, too fragile and potentially dangerous for this application. Investigate the A123 Li nanophosphate cells- they are tough as nails and can source very high currents (A123systems to start, but youtube for examples and EBAY to buy!). Remember that cold cranking currents can be ridiculously high so I would spec the pack dramatically over what you expect.

 

[The Dane]

If it worked i think it would be an option from the factory?

Porsche makes a LiIon battery and at "only" $2000 it's a steal right?
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/23/porsche-announces-lithium-ion-starter-battery/

 

[VidPro]

i wouldnt do it, to much heat, most of my motorcycles have the battery somewhere behind its air cooling stuff, like they really dont care about the battery.
then the voltages wouldnt match WELL with the li-ion, BUT it would match better with the li-FE , and you know they are now making Psudo SLA batteries now that have li-fe-po in them its starting to look pretty darn cool.
http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4...with10timeslongerlifeand597lighterweight.aspx
this one by itself probably does not have the amps for starter amperages, unless it is a smaller bike.

http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4...atewopcm-replaceslawith10timeslongerlife.aspx
this one doesnt yet have the nessisary protection stuff, but would handle the average mid sized street cycle starter amps, but it certannly would need some measuring , and testing, and proper curcuitry. or just hanging out for a bit till they start making this stuff more avilable and usefull.

if you look close you will realise they are just jamming these things in that one http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4prismaticmodule32v40ah3crate128whceunapproved.aspx
these li-fe prismatic are showing to be some of the lower COST for higher amps Li-fe stuff (everywhere on the web). w/$ or whatever. measure your original batt, then spec the sizes of these out X4, rack em stack them and protect them.

one could be DIYed using that same idea, put a good ABS frame around some hi-amp poly type li-fe and add in some mondo protection board for the amps.

there is one on e-bay too, but i lost it again, it explains it a lot better, and what company is making it. its built in protection makes it much more viable for direct easy simple replacement.

 

[Apollo Cree]

I'd be concerned about the effects of vibration on any battery not intended for motor vehicle use. Lithium batteries tend to have more severe consequences when they fail than other battery types.

There are some hybrids that use some kind of lithium cells, but they're specifically designed for automotive use.

 

[jasonck08]

I would say finding a suitable charging method would be the hardest part of the whole rig.

I'd probably suggest using LifePo4's because they are the most forgiving of being over charged and over discharged, not to mention the safest of the bunch. They will never explode or vent dangerious fumes. They also have a higher cycle life of up to 2,000 cycles, vs about 500 for a traditional LiCo cell.

The bigger cells can also be charged and discharged at insane rates.

 

[csa]

Make sure you've got a smartish charge controller on there. You're likely to run into problems with "standard" charge controllers as they expect constant, reliable current coming in. Starting, stopping, voltage spikes from the bike are all likely to be really hard on both your charging and your protection circuitry. Get automotive spec'd parts.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Poormanq45,

You may find this informative...

There is actually another site that has replacement batteries for Civic's and Acura's, but I can't find it at the moment. It is basically a plug and play replacement.

Tom

 

[kingnba6]

sorry to bump the old thread. but check out shorai battery. i recently put one in my motorcycle and it works great! never had a problem with it starting. however in the cold it does need some "warm" up time. meaning it might not start it the first crank but will 100% start it the second crank. it was basically a direct replacement. offers more CCA and amp/hr than a lead acid and is also much lighter and smaller.

 

[damnedfish]

My 1983 motorcycle (GSX550), didn't have enough power to crank the engine and provide enough spark at the same time.

So I re-wired / put a Li-Po purely across the contacts of Starter relay (the coil (and everything else) is still driven by bike battery). Starts first time, every time. Li-Po is of sufficient C rating for the bike, wiring is too (and relatively safely inside a firebag). I just charge the Li-Po once a month. Never been drained more than 65% D.O.D.

But back to the point of Lights (as this is a lighting forum). My mates' GSX250 (1983) is having problems with charging circuits, so we are looking into solar/li-po/ & converting everything to LED. And perhaps lensed headlights, or HID, for low current draw.

 

[StorminMatt]

Traditional LiCo would be a HORRIBLE choice for a SLI battery on any kind of vehicle. There are safety issues, charging issues, voltage incompatibility issues, and LiCo can't deliver much current. However, LiFePO4 has been marketed as a lead acid replacement for a while. Since the nominal voltage is 3.2V per cell, four of them come out to 12.8. When you consider that a charged lead acid battery comes out at about 12V, this is about perfect. Also, LiFePO4 can deliver insane current and is MUCH safer than LiCo. The only issue I am uncertain of is whether LiFePO4 can take the constant float charge that is typically given to a lead acid battery in a vehicular electrical system. This is definitely something worth looking into, as circuitry that disconnects the battery when it is fully charged could be potentially harmful to the electrical system (the battery also serves as a surge protector, and eliminating it at times means losing this protection).

 

[Norm]

But back to the point of Lights (as this is a lighting forum). My mates' GSX250 (1983) is having problems with charging circuits, so we are looking into solar/li-po/ & converting everything to LED. And perhaps lensed headlights, or HID, for low current draw.

Your addition to your post wasn't necessary to justify posting useful information.

Please repost the above quote in Automotive, Motorcycles Included.

Norm

 

[darkangel55555]

I have a Shorai in my bike, it's a fifth of the weight of the stock lead acid battery and will crank many more times from cold. An added benefit is that I can charge it with an external charger at much higher rates than an equivalent lead acid battery. LiFePO4 also avoids many of the risks of the traditional lithium ion chemistries.

Weight savings? Check.
High discharge rates? Check.
Low voltage sag under high drain applications? Check.
Resilience against overvoltage from continuous charging? Check.

Capacity would be lower than an equivalent lead acid, I think but the CCA rating should be equivalent or higher even though you're using a much smaller and lighter pack.

EDIT: Wanted to add that it doesn't leak, like some of my "sealed" lead acid batteries have. Another cool thing is that the first bit of current drawn will heat it up a little, and improve its resting voltage/voltage under load.

 

[Ted Andkilde]

These guys also make commercially packaged lithium ion batteries in motorcycle form factor:

http://www.braillebattery.com/

Were you trying to put your own pack together using 18650s or similar?

t

 

[357mag1]

I use Shorai Li-on batteries in several of my motorcycles and have for a few years. It is nice to come back from being deployed 9 months or more and have the motorcycle start right up. The company claims their batteries will work with the stock charging system and so far they have worked fine.