Lube for Al threads

[Dead_Nuts]

My Raw Al takes a bit more effort than I'd like to twist the switch. Any suggestions for an alternative thread lube that might help?

Maybe I'm just spoiled by my NS.

 

[StarHalo]

As is usually the case with lube topics, you're going to get deluged with recommendations that haven't been comparatively tested, a lot of "I tried this and it works" posts; Having racked up several hours worth of viewing all the lube posts on CPF, what I can say is that there hasn't been any specific/objective/scientific comparison test of flashlight-application lubricants. That being said, the next best thing is the findings of those that actually make the flashlights and deal with them most often. The machiners are very picky about lubricants for any application, and thus the majority have gone through quite a few for their flashlights. The most popular lube among them is Sandwich Shoppe Krytox 50/50, a proprietary blend of teflon oil and grease that's "just right" for flashlight threads.

I use SS 50/50 on my lights and can definitely say it's better than any of the lubes my various lights from various manufacturers were shipped with. Even after several months of use, a single application still provides smooth operation and virtually no "black grit"/oxide to speak of. There's a reason the only place to buy it is from a place that sells to flashlight builders! Highly recommended :thumbsup:

See it here: http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.c...Csid=8f32d65ef12b336975e089591b868db0&x=0&y=0
(the smallest/3cc size is a few years' worth even for several flashlights)

 

[Steve L]

I use Nyogel 760G on my Raw Al. I believe that's also what Rob recommends. I've also heard good things about Krytox 50/50 for Ti.

 

[Dead_Nuts]

Thanks. I have Nyogel in my parts box somewhere (don't know what number). I'll get some of the 50/50 to try out.

 

[TITAN1833]

I wont recommend a lube,but whatever you use it sparingly and clean the threads completely before applying the new lube.

 

[iconoclast]

...
I've also heard good things about Krytox 50/50.

I love the Krytox, particularly for ti on ti threads. But I thought the one place where krytox was not optimal was bare (non-anodized) aluminum threads? I could be wrong, as I've avoided it those situations precisely because I'd heard this, so I can't say first hand that it's true. Anyone with Krytox on bare aluminum experiance to back this up or debunk it?

 

[leeleefocus]

I use fully synthetic engine oil on my L2D head this has got bare aluminium to bare aluminium contact. It makes the threads super smooth and it doesn't appear to affect the flow of the electrical goodness. I find i am lubing the threads alot less because it lasts much longer than any of the other lubes i have tried.

 

[MikeSalt]

The recommended lubricant, as used by Rob himself is Nyogel 779ZC. If you buy a big tube (50g), you pretty much can lube every flashlight in your collection for the next 10 years.

 

[Dead_Nuts]

Thanks all for the responses! I'm getting some 50/50 anyway and I already have Nyogel (not sure which) at home. I had forgotten that I bought some a while back, but never used it.

 

[jimmy1970]

If you live in Australia, you may not be able to find these American products in local shops. However, I have finally found the perfect thread lubricant - from a bike shop!

TRI-FLOW high performance synthetic grease - waterproof, P.T.F.E forumulated, non-staining, waterproofing, for use on 'O' rings.

It is a cloudy clear colour and is 'specifically designed to seal out water and lubricate under the most demanding conditions'. After using on my 6P, the threads are super smooth.

After letting it stand over night in an air conditioned room, the threads are still smooth with no 'stiffining' with the cool temperatures.

Looks good on the threads too - not that dirty brown colour like a lot of greases. Pretty expensive at $19.90 AUS for a 3 oz. / 85g tube but it should last you many years.

Highly recommended.

James...

 

[olrac]

I have been using Super Lube PTFE Synthethic Grease for last couple of years on all my lights includiing my Raw . with great results, I believe McGizmo used to use it also. You can get it at any ACE Hardware for less than 4 bucks for a 3 oz tube that will last forever.
Here is a link to it online:

http://www.super-lube.com/


http://suburbansportinggoods.com/Su...froogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=froogle

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

I'm using Krytox grease on a few aluminium threads, and it works wonderfully.

 

[deusexaethera]

I use lithium wheel bearing grease on virtually everything on my mountain bike, which has plenty of meshing aluminum parts that see far more abuse than your Raw AL ever will, and they are so smooth they look polished.

Wheel bearing grease is some badass stuff. You think about how much abuse it takes in its intended environment, it'll do fine anywhere else -- except on titanium, which requires copper-based grease instead of lithium-based grease. No, I don't know why.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

I used wheel bearing grease for a little while, but I was never very satisfied with it. I still use it alot for other things, but my flashlights were never very smooth with the bearing grease for some reason.

 

[Dead_Nuts]

Thanks all. The bottom line is that the Al is never going to be as smooth as the nickel-silver threads.

 

[deusexaethera]

Thanks all. The bottom line is that the Al is never going to be as smooth as the nickel-silver threads.

No, they're not. Aluminum is simply too soft a metal, and rubbing the threads together with ANY kind of grease is going to result in wear.

However, anodized aluminum threads are an entirely different, and much nicer, beast.

 

[Luminescent]

I used wheel bearing grease for a little while, but I was never very satisfied with it. I still use it alot for other things, but my flashlights were never very smooth with the bearing grease for some reason.

I also found inexpensive wheel bearing grease very disappointing. The blue stuff that I tried was no better than Vaseline (almost useless).

Mobil-1 Red Synthetic grease on the other hand has literally worked miracles on my tough to lubricate bare aluminum threaded lights. (the stuff I am using comes in a 1 pound tub with the bar code number 71924 96103)

Until stumbling on the Mobil-1 grease, I also thought that I was just going to be doomed to have to put up with lots of scratchiness and metal wear on my lights with bare aluminum threads.

I think the reason Mobil-1 grease works so well on bare aluminum, is that it is a very mild soft lithium soap thickened synthetic hydrocarbon grease with no PTFE particles to abrade the soft aluminum surface.

No PTFE particles, no abrasive gritty silica filler (like silicone greases), just a soft buttery grease that is very slippery and slick, which is exactly what you want on soft aluminum.

Also, Mobil-1 contains ZINC DITHIOPHOSPHATE as a anti-corrosion additive, instead of the SODIUM NITRITE used in some of the Krytox compositions. Where Sodium Nitrite seems to increase fretting and wear under heavy use, I have found no similar problems with Mobil-1, so apparently the Zinc Dithiophosphate is more aluminum friendly.

Some things to be aware of –

Mobil-1 grease will work much better after it has a chance to bond to the metal surfaces for a few days, and will be buttery smooth after a few weeks.

I did quite a bit of testing and found that Krytox is NOT good on bare aluminum in critical applications (like the head of a twisty light), and unfortunatly, after you try it, Krytox is a real ***** to clean off. The presence of Krytox will interfere with Mobil-1's bonding to the bare aluminum metal. So, I would strongly recommend that those who intend to try BOTH Krytox and Mobil-1 to find out which works best, do themselves a big favor and try the Mobil-1 FIRST. Give the Mobil-1 a few days to work in, and I predict that you will NEVER feel the need to switch to Krytox.

If you already have Krytox on your light, then do the best you can to clean it off with some soft cotton rags (from both the internal and external threads), and allow a bit longer for the Mobil-1 to displace the Krytox, and work it's way onto the bare aluminum surfaces for optimum results.

Another thing I should warn you about is that Mobil-1 Red Synthetic Grease has a pungent slightly skunky odor if you smell it close up (especially when you first open the can).

In practical terms, this odor is not strong enough to be even faintly noticeable after you have lubed a flashlight, but it can be a little pungent if you jam your nose right down next to the can and take a good sniff. If you work in a reasonably well-ventilated area, and don't go out of your way to sniff the can, it's not an issue. This odor seems to be related to some trace aromatic molecules that are a byproduct of the refining process, and it does gradually fade once the can has been opened for a few months. The grease itself is not particularly volatile, and does not dry out (I have lights that I lubed over a year ago that still are well lubricated and turning buttery smooth).

Tekno_Cowboy – Mobil-1 Grease is quite inexpensive compared to Krytox, but not everyone needs to buy a full pound of the stuff. It would seem like there is a good opportunity here for some enterprising individual who already has experience repackaging grease into small syringes for flashlight use.

In my book, Krytox is still king on stainless steel, titanium and hard plastic lights, so the ideal 'Flashlight Lubricant Set' would consist of a few CC's of Krytox in one syringe and a second syringe with a similar quantity of Mobil-1 Red Synthetic grease (as a specialty aluminum lubricant).

Sorry to keep popping up with this, because I know that this flashlight lubricant issue has been talked to death, but from the way that this subject does keep popping up, lubing bare aluminum threaded parts on lights is a lot harder than most folks realize, so finally finding a lubricant that will absolutely guarantee buttery smooth operation with almost no wear in these lights is not something to be taken lightly.

- Luminescent

Edit -
Mobil-1 Red Synthetic Grease is also available in grease-gun cartridges. I thought I should mention this because Tekno_Cowboy once mentioned that he actually had to work hard to eliminate bubbles when filling syringes with Krytox (and always overfilled to allow for the odd small bubble).

Using an inexpensive grease gun and Mobil-1 grease cartridge, you should be able to simply force fill the empty syringes like you would service the grease fittings on a car with no mess , fuss, or bubbles.

Just a thought . . .

 

[fyrstormer]

After trying Krytox in a number of applications, I gave up on the stuff entirely. Silicone-based greases simply are not suitable for metal-on-metal contact, and if Krytox works at all it's because of the Teflon particles suspended in it. I also had trouble with it interrupting conductivity on flashlights that used the threads as part of the conduction path. (the Wee and Raw don't conduct through the threads though, so it's not an issue for them.) Nyogel, in my opinion, isn't worth using at all because silicone doesn't like to stick to any metal, even the ones that usually hold lubricant films quite well.

For steel and aluminum, I use a MoS2-laced grease. (I haven't had the chance to try the Mobil 1 Red stuff that Luminescent suggested; who knows, I might like it better.) Some people have commented that "moly", as it's called, will chew up the metal, but while molybdenum might be harder than hell like chrome is, molybdenum di-sulphide is much softer and the crystals are not the right shape to cause damage -- they are perfectly flat and slide over each other like poker cards.

For titanium, the only thing I've found that works well is Lucas Oil Stabilizer mixed with a little bit of grease and a LOT of Teflon powder. The Teflon, obviously, acts as a rolling agent, but even though it wears out after a while, it allows the titanium to shear off microscopic bits of metal to take the place of the Teflon as the parts break in. Without the Teflon, though, the bits of titanium that shear off are large enough to see with the naked eye, and that's what causes the gritty sensation with titanium threads. My homemade concoction doesn't work so well on aluminum and steel -- it actually seems to completely prevent break-in on low-wear parts like flashlight threads -- but it has made living with titanium downright pleasant.

 

[Luminescent]

After trying Krytox in a number of applications, I gave up on the stuff entirely. Silicone-based greases simply are not suitable for metal-on-metal contact . . .

You mentioned that you use molybdenum disulphide grease on aluminum. Have you tried it on titanium? (I have heard of MDS being recommended for use on titanium, and was wondering how well it works)

I can see why you would equate Krytox with Silicone, because on aluminum, I find both Krytox and Silicone grease to be equally gritty, and after only a few dozen rotation cycles the grease is completely black with metal particles.

But they aren't equivelent. Real Krytox grease is based on a PFPE synthetic base oil that is very different from the silicone oils used as a base for silicone greases.

Also, the thickener in Krytox Grease is PTFE (Teflon), instead of the finely pulverized silica used as a filler to thicken most silicone greases (silica = finely ground glass or sand, which is why silicone greases have such crappy lubricant properties).

Silicone Grease -
Silicone Base Oil
Silica Thickener

Krytox -
Perfluorinated polyether (PFPE) Base oil
Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) Teflon Thickener

Also, the PFPE base oil used in Dupont Krytox greases comes in various viscosity grades that Dupont arbitrarily numbers from 100 through 107. The Grade 100 base oil has a viscosity of only about 12.4 centistokes (watery thin), and the grade 107 has a viscosity 1535 centistokes (thicker than molasses).

So the lubricant properties (or lack of lubricant properties), in Krytox Grease depends a lot on the exact composition of the grease and the viscosity of the base oil.

The Loctite P/N 29710 Krytox grease I am using is based on Dupont Krytox grade 206 grease which in turn uses a relatively thick grade 106 PFPE base oil with viscosity of about 800-820 centistokes.

Contrary to your experience, I have found that this particular Krytox Grease works really well on stainless steel. VERY smooth operation with no galling, and virtually zero wear.

On titanium, the Loctite 29710 Krytox composition is also quite reasonable, giving me results very similar to what you described for your home-made goop – I.E. very smooth turning operation, but some slight fretting being indicated by gradual blackening of the grease.

It's sad that better results can't be obtained on Titanium, but from the results you described, I guess this is about as good as it gets for titanium (even with a custom grease).

The same Krytox Grease that worked incredibly well on stainless steel, and reasonably well on titanium, causes severe fretting and wear on soft bare aluminum however.

I think the PTFE Teflon particles in the Krytox are the culprit rather than the PFPE base oil. Aluminum is so soft that these small Teflon particles dig into the surface and cause fretting.

As is the case with your home concocted lube, 'Teflon' powder can be added to virtually any type of grease, including those based on silicone oil bases, as well as those based on a traditional hydrocarbon lubricants (and of course the new PFPE based Krytox greases).

With this in mind, I have tried every type of 'Teflon' filled grease I could find, and regardless of the underlying grease type, every single one of them caused fretting and wear on bare aluminum.

This may be why some are having better results on bare aluminum threads with the 50/50 mixed Krytox which, if I understand correctly, has been thinned with a bit more of the PFPE base oil (and therefore has relatively less PTFE)

In any case, I have tried real PFPE Krytox (and several other varieties of generic 'Teflon' PTFE lubricants), plus several types of silicone grease including Nyogel, and all were at least slightly gritty and caused some degree of metal fretting when bare aluminum threads were turned under moderated loads.

The Mobil-1 one grease starts out smoother from day one on aluminum and gets even more buttery smooth the longer it is used.

Also, one last question for fyrstormer -
The Mobil-1 works so well, I am thinking of compounding a nice thick custom grease like yours from the Mobil-1 grease plus some PTFE filler for use on titanium, so I was wondering where you obtained your dry PTFE Teflon power ???

 

[fyrstormer]

http://www.spurlocktools.com/id39.htm

It's not the most uniformly-powdered stuff ever, but it's a good price, and the larger bits seem to get torn to pieces by the threads in short order.

I have a jar of fluorocarbon-gelled silicone grease, which I assume means it's silicone oil mixed with Teflon powder. That means it should be better on threads than the silica-gelled silicone greases you've tried. It's incredibly sticky stuff, but with or without the Teflon in it, silicone simply does not stick to metal the way hydrocarbons do. I had forgotten that Krytox was actually made from another fluorocarbon, not a siloxane, but regardless of the formulation, it just doesn't give titanium threads the feel I want.

I haven't found anything like the stuff I made for myself -- it's the thinnest of thin greases, just barely capable of resisting gravity, but it sticks to metal amazingly well. Actually, I don't think a super-thick grease will give you the results you're expecting on titanium, because titanium's ability to shed lubrication means that the lubricant needs to be able to flow back into spaces it was squeezed out of, or else the threads will end up dry again in short order. I ended up with the formulation I have because I tried the super-thick approach and discovered it was quite happy to stick like glue in places it wasn't needed after getting squished out of the threads, which did me no good.

I should probably try the synthetic Lucas oil as a base, because that stuff worked so well in my old Mazda's engine that the rings couldn't scrape the oil off the cylinder walls anymore. Shortest oil change interval ever -- just long enough to billow my way back to the auto parts store to buy more oil.