js
Flashlight Enthusiast
Here are some links:
First, to LED61's thread
Next, check out the X-LOLA link in my sigline, and also the M6-R link.
First, to LED61's thread
Next, check out the X-LOLA link in my sigline, and also the M6-R link.
M6 Guardian
- Thread starter 65535
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Skyline
Enlightened
Bryan said:
Wow. I wouldn't even try to have any comparison between the M6 and all the wannabes. I only have one M6 and one 10X, and I love them both.
The M6 makes for a great discussion piece during parties. I pulled mine out at night-time bbq and folks couldn't help but be stunned at the huge-beam-from-a-small-package that was cast about the neighborhood. It has to be seen to be believed.
adirondackdestroyer
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2005
- Messages
- 2,018
How long is the runtime on the 6 CR123 cells? I can see this light costing an absolute fortune to actually use, which kind of makes it almost useless in my mind anyway.
I have a 2C ROP Lo output bulb run on 2 18650 cells which is pretty damn bright and has a very smooth (Surefire quality) beam since it has a HS reflector. How much brighter is the M6 compared to my ROP? I have never handled an M6 either, is the size similar as well?
If all else is roughly the same I have no idea why anyone with a head on their shoulders would even consider the M6 when you factor in cost of actually using it.
I have a 2C ROP Lo output bulb run on 2 18650 cells which is pretty damn bright and has a very smooth (Surefire quality) beam since it has a HS reflector. How much brighter is the M6 compared to my ROP? I have never handled an M6 either, is the size similar as well?
If all else is roughly the same I have no idea why anyone with a head on their shoulders would even consider the M6 when you factor in cost of actually using it.
I've owned a butt load of mag mods... sold them all.
major part of M6's charm is the form factor. yes some mag mods were brighter, but were quite a bit larger and no where near as durable. M6's shock isolated bezel puts it a class by itself.
Surefire M6 with M6R sets the bar that no other light has even come close. besides being rechargeable for guilt-free lumens. M6R's regulated beam throws out a consistent white beam. soft start extend bulb life. best of all M6R runs cool enough to do a 20 minute run. try that with stock M6 pack and it will probably shut down from heat.
Surefire needs to put M6R design into production. it's that good!
major part of M6's charm is the form factor. yes some mag mods were brighter, but were quite a bit larger and no where near as durable. M6's shock isolated bezel puts it a class by itself.
Surefire M6 with M6R sets the bar that no other light has even come close. besides being rechargeable for guilt-free lumens. M6R's regulated beam throws out a consistent white beam. soft start extend bulb life. best of all M6R runs cool enough to do a 20 minute run. try that with stock M6 pack and it will probably shut down from heat.
Surefire needs to put M6R design into production. it's that good!
Bryan said:
JimmyB
Enlightened
People often complain about Surefire prices. You can get just as many, if not more lumens from many lights out there or by building your own hotwire, get much more light than an M6. If your only measure of performance for a flashlight is the amount of lumens, then pass on the M6.
The M6 is designed to be bashed into the brick as you're rappelling down a wall, knocked against a metal door jamb as you're breeching a door, and dropped onto the floor and kicked across the room as you're fighting for your life with a crank head. Then after more use/abuse of this kind, it still pumps out 500+ lumens.
If you can buy or build another light that can do all this and more, then by all means get it. I'll be next in line to get one. Until then there's the M6.
The M6 is designed to be bashed into the brick as you're rappelling down a wall, knocked against a metal door jamb as you're breeching a door, and dropped onto the floor and kicked across the room as you're fighting for your life with a crank head. Then after more use/abuse of this kind, it still pumps out 500+ lumens.
If you can buy or build another light that can do all this and more, then by all means get it. I'll be next in line to get one. Until then there's the M6.
deranged_coder
Enlightened
The runtime for the MN20 is 250 lumens at 60 minutes. For the MN21 it is 500 lumens at 20 minutes.adirondackdestroyer said:
I think a big factor of the cost of the M6 is the fact that it is designed to survive all sorts of abuse that could easily destroy lesser flashlights.
bryan, no question supporting Surefire M6 is not cheap. at 6x CR123's a load. that's why a regulated rechargeable solution like M6R is so compelling.
due to safety issues using private label Chinese lithium cells in series. I've switched to rechargeable cells in all my lights that lithium cells in series. Using brand name primary lithium cells for backup.
Surefire's stock battery pack is usually loaded with 6x Surefire cells for backup to M6R.
due to safety issues using private label Chinese lithium cells in series. I've switched to rechargeable cells in all my lights that lithium cells in series. Using brand name primary lithium cells for backup.
Surefire's stock battery pack is usually loaded with 6x Surefire cells for backup to M6R.
Flakey
Enlightened
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2005
- Messages
- 425
In my opinion the M6 is not a good light. the M6-R is however a SUPERB light. now there is reasoning behind my madness. the m6 has a few flaws from the factory. it DEVOURS lithium primaries, secondly the high output bulb draws too much power from the lithiums, so much so that the batteries when removed from one are hot to the touch. when you throw in regulation, and a powersource that is more capable of meeting the demands of the bulb inside of it it is wonderfull. when thinking about flashlights there are some main components. BODY, LIGHT EMMITER, POWER SOURCE, SWICHING / DRIVE MECHANISM. in the M6 everything but the power source is top notch, no doubt surefire makes great lights, but they dont engeneer new batteries, and they have not "seen the light" of lithium ion yet. No i dont own one ... 600 Lumens isnt Alot of light to me anymore, i have two flashlights that have more than 3000 lumen output and BOTH of them have more than 20 minute run time. If you want to make 600 legitimate lumens for about $80 you can build an ROP LE 2c. although the fit and finish may be much better on the m6 i could make a batch of rop's for the price of one m6.
just my .02
just my .02
LED61
Flashlight Enthusiast
Many of you guys are still talking 250 lumens out of the MN20 lamp. I agree with JS measurements that put it closer to 400 lumens. It's plenty bright for most things and rugged. I love my M6's.
bwaites
Flashlight Enthusiast
Flakey,
You are right in that you can make a bunch of ROP's for the price of one M6.
BUT...if I gave you the option of taking all those and dropping them from a height of 6 feet while running, and doing the same with just 1 M6, which would you bet would still be running after the drop?
That's why an M6 is my "SHTFL" (S...Hits the fan light)!
Milkyspit is now producing some long running LED replacement heads for the M6 that produce roughly the same outputs as the HOLA, although I have yet to see if they have close to the same throw, so there may be a reasonable long running LED option also. Like all things M6, they don't come cheap!
As for the MagMod options, I have produced literally hundreds of them over the last 3 years, none are as dependable as the M6 is.
There is ONE light that is comparable and is much cheaper. That is the HOLA version of the Tigerlight FBOP. Roughly the same size as the M6, it is almost as tough, (check out this video: http://www.tigerlight.net/getVideo.php?videoName=Durability)
Trust me guys, NO MagMod I've seen can compare with that kind of durability!!
Bill
You are right in that you can make a bunch of ROP's for the price of one M6.
BUT...if I gave you the option of taking all those and dropping them from a height of 6 feet while running, and doing the same with just 1 M6, which would you bet would still be running after the drop?
That's why an M6 is my "SHTFL" (S...Hits the fan light)!
Milkyspit is now producing some long running LED replacement heads for the M6 that produce roughly the same outputs as the HOLA, although I have yet to see if they have close to the same throw, so there may be a reasonable long running LED option also. Like all things M6, they don't come cheap!
As for the MagMod options, I have produced literally hundreds of them over the last 3 years, none are as dependable as the M6 is.
There is ONE light that is comparable and is much cheaper. That is the HOLA version of the Tigerlight FBOP. Roughly the same size as the M6, it is almost as tough, (check out this video: http://www.tigerlight.net/getVideo.php?videoName=Durability)
Trust me guys, NO MagMod I've seen can compare with that kind of durability!!
Bill
Size15's
Flashaholic
cy said:
Single samples of products being put through their paces are one thing - multiple units (one or two dozen) would begin to give me confidence. Perhaps my standards are too high as a result of working for a product test lab but I think they are appropriate based on my experience of breaking things for a living.
I regard the TigerLight 8" FBoP highly as I've posted many times in the past. It didn't start so well though since one of the wire leads of my first TigerLight lamp assembly snapped off without any abusive use and no drops etc.
My confidence in it's ability to handle the sort of abuse I've personally dished out to various individual samples of SureFires is not too high but then my use of flashlights does not require such performance to be an important characteristic.
When considering whether a device can handle abusive use or conditions one should consider why it is so important that the device should have this ability for us the users in each of our own various applications.
One thing to consider is that subjecting a product to abusive use and it surviving should not give you more confidence that it will survive another encounter. Such is the case with 'crash' helmets that should be replaced after each impact/incident.
I have ten so-called lifejackets in my team (for seven of us who work near water). On a recent training exercise three failed to inflate when the wearer entered the water. Of those one failed to inflate with the pull-cord and had to be inflated by the blow-tube. All of the ten had been fitted with brand new firing mechanisms and checked by a certified training instructor as well as my team members themselves. In the group we were training with two other jackets failed to inflate with the auto mechanism. That's five out of 18 LIFEjackets from the manufacturer supplying the whole Agency which I understand has many thousands of jackets. The failure to automatically inflate is not uncommon but it is quite rare.
What I'm saying is that confidence in product performance should be earned through close experience of ability to perform under realistic training and in-use conditions.
I drop one of my M6's and the bulb fails. I have a backup flashlight on me because light is important for the task I am performing.
Never rely on one device alone. That's why lifejackets have three mechanism for inflation and I will be pushing for my team to attend the water-safety training course out at the man-made river instead of in the indoor swimming pool. I also want the top three mileage drivers in my team to attend advanced driving courses including skid-pan and off-road.
I read that some people consider the M6 to be far to expensive because you can build several far brighter flashlights for the same price. That's nice.
I read that some people consider the M6's output to be understated and that others use output ratings to compare flashlight brands. That's nice.
Nice has nothing to do with the M6. It is what it is.
Cost irrelevant to purpose.
Output rating irrelevant to purpose.
The M6 is designed and built to better allow operators to prevail and it does that. If you need it – you need it. If you don't you don't.
It is what it is.
Do I need the M6? No.
So why do I have three? Good question.
I like the M6. A lot!
Al
65535
Flashlight Enthusiast
Ok so basically it's about yoru favorite light. I am buying it for the sole purpose of a high output flashlight. when output no other light can reach that I would own thats what its for. Aside from that being the Battery king (www.rcgroups.com) at least I have a strong history workign with batteries I should have no problems handlign the Exp. of primary cells. Btw what is the input voltage across the 6 batteries? is it a whopping 18 volts 6 or is it 9?
js
Flashlight Enthusiast
65535,
If you looked through the LED61 thread I linked to above, you would know that the battery holder takes the 6 123's and turns them into two parellel stacks of three 3 volt 123's. So open circuit voltage is 9 volts, and voltage under load for the MN21 is about 6.8 volts, and about 7.5 volts for the MN20.
If all you want is massive output, the M6 is not the light for you.
As for the comments made here, I pretty much have responded to all of them in the LED61 thread, so since I provided the link, I won't bother re-typing all that stuff again. Suffice it to say that I do not think that the M6 power source is deficient, nor do I think that mag mods are better than an M6.
Also, I do not think the lumens ratings of the M6 are irrelevant (with all due respect to Size15s). A mag85 IS NOT twice as bright as a SF M6. The mag85 is probably putting out around 800 lumens out the front of the light if the batteries are fresh. The M6 is putting out 630 lumens with fresh cells. NOT half as bright at all. More like 3/4 as bright, in a much smaller, much more reliable and rugged package.
cy,
Loved your posts in this thread! Right on the money. Totally agree about the extensions thing, too.
If you looked through the LED61 thread I linked to above, you would know that the battery holder takes the 6 123's and turns them into two parellel stacks of three 3 volt 123's. So open circuit voltage is 9 volts, and voltage under load for the MN21 is about 6.8 volts, and about 7.5 volts for the MN20.
If all you want is massive output, the M6 is not the light for you.
As for the comments made here, I pretty much have responded to all of them in the LED61 thread, so since I provided the link, I won't bother re-typing all that stuff again. Suffice it to say that I do not think that the M6 power source is deficient, nor do I think that mag mods are better than an M6.
Also, I do not think the lumens ratings of the M6 are irrelevant (with all due respect to Size15s). A mag85 IS NOT twice as bright as a SF M6. The mag85 is probably putting out around 800 lumens out the front of the light if the batteries are fresh. The M6 is putting out 630 lumens with fresh cells. NOT half as bright at all. More like 3/4 as bright, in a much smaller, much more reliable and rugged package.
cy,
Loved your posts in this thread! Right on the money. Totally agree about the extensions thing, too.
js
Flashlight Enthusiast
You know, I've been thinking, and there maybe is something I didn't really address in the LED61 thread, and that is the question of why the SF M6 might be a good choice for "the rest of us"--the people who aren't LEO or S&R or Special Forces and so on. Why would something like the M6 make any kind of sense for the average Joe to buy?
I think maybe that there are some answers to that question, --some reasons why it DOES make sense to own the M6 even if you aren't repelling from helicopters into a war torn city.
So, what are they?
1. For starters, the M6 is almost completely immune to oxidation and degradation over time due to contact resistance buildup at the switch and lamp assembly. The inside is Chem Koted or electrically plated (MB20 battery holder contacts) and thus the M6 can sit by your bed side or in a kitchen cupboard for years and be good to go when you need it. That's a definite plus!
2. The Li-Mn-02 primary batteries are also very resistant to degrading and self-discharging while sitting around. They can stand up to the harsh temperature extremes to be found in a car glove box or hatch back or trunk, and still have almost all of their charge intact when your car breaks down. Or they can sit happily around just about anywhere else on earth and still be good to go when you need them. Try that with alkalines or NiMH!
3. The M6 running the MN20 has a full hour of runtime and really incredible brightness, all of it packed into a light that is smaller than a 2D mag. Or, if you install the MN15, which I am calling the X-LOLA (see link in sigline), you get very respectable brightness for two and a half hours. At this rate, the M6 isn't eating batteries significantly faster than the typical 2x123 light. And you get 200 lumens instead of 100 (or less)! In other words, what I'm saying is that if you run the M6 as if you ARE an average Joe instead of GI Joe, then the typical criticism against the M6 really doesn't hold anymore.
4. Sheer durability and ruggedness. The M6 will work and will stand up to some heavy use and abuse. Here's a great example: I actually do keep my M6 by my bedside, underneath my bedside table. Well, one day one of the legs of my bed frame came off the little block of wood and furniture caster that I use to keep my bed level, and the full weight of me and the bed landed on top of the SWITCH of my M6. It was for all intents and purposes a freaking bed leg for a moment or two. Yet, despite that, it still works perfectly. I didn't notice any damage at all nor did I notice any difference in the action of the switch. That impressed me! So, what I'm saying is that while most of us don't need the level of ruggedness and quality built into the M6, it sure can come in handy at times!
5. Sheer joy of use and function! The M6 is a joy to use and handle. Every time I grab my M6 and use it I get a return on my investment in the pleasure of using it. The beam is lovely and the light is lovely. It's a thing of beauty.
Does any of this mean that the M6 is "worth it"? Only you can answer that. I know it's worth it for me! I was thinking about selling my M6 some time ago because I could have used the money and I figured my TigerLight could stand in for it. But when it came down to actually selling it, I balked. I realized I couldn't; that I didn't want to; that the TigerLight could NOT stand in for it; and that I would miss my M6 dearly if I was so stupid as to sell it.
So I kept it. And I'm really really glad I did. It's one of the lights I would buy first, right after an A2, if I had to start all over again.
I think maybe that there are some answers to that question, --some reasons why it DOES make sense to own the M6 even if you aren't repelling from helicopters into a war torn city.
So, what are they?
1. For starters, the M6 is almost completely immune to oxidation and degradation over time due to contact resistance buildup at the switch and lamp assembly. The inside is Chem Koted or electrically plated (MB20 battery holder contacts) and thus the M6 can sit by your bed side or in a kitchen cupboard for years and be good to go when you need it. That's a definite plus!
2. The Li-Mn-02 primary batteries are also very resistant to degrading and self-discharging while sitting around. They can stand up to the harsh temperature extremes to be found in a car glove box or hatch back or trunk, and still have almost all of their charge intact when your car breaks down. Or they can sit happily around just about anywhere else on earth and still be good to go when you need them. Try that with alkalines or NiMH!
3. The M6 running the MN20 has a full hour of runtime and really incredible brightness, all of it packed into a light that is smaller than a 2D mag. Or, if you install the MN15, which I am calling the X-LOLA (see link in sigline), you get very respectable brightness for two and a half hours. At this rate, the M6 isn't eating batteries significantly faster than the typical 2x123 light. And you get 200 lumens instead of 100 (or less)! In other words, what I'm saying is that if you run the M6 as if you ARE an average Joe instead of GI Joe, then the typical criticism against the M6 really doesn't hold anymore.
4. Sheer durability and ruggedness. The M6 will work and will stand up to some heavy use and abuse. Here's a great example: I actually do keep my M6 by my bedside, underneath my bedside table. Well, one day one of the legs of my bed frame came off the little block of wood and furniture caster that I use to keep my bed level, and the full weight of me and the bed landed on top of the SWITCH of my M6. It was for all intents and purposes a freaking bed leg for a moment or two. Yet, despite that, it still works perfectly. I didn't notice any damage at all nor did I notice any difference in the action of the switch. That impressed me! So, what I'm saying is that while most of us don't need the level of ruggedness and quality built into the M6, it sure can come in handy at times!
5. Sheer joy of use and function! The M6 is a joy to use and handle. Every time I grab my M6 and use it I get a return on my investment in the pleasure of using it. The beam is lovely and the light is lovely. It's a thing of beauty.
Does any of this mean that the M6 is "worth it"? Only you can answer that. I know it's worth it for me! I was thinking about selling my M6 some time ago because I could have used the money and I figured my TigerLight could stand in for it. But when it came down to actually selling it, I balked. I realized I couldn't; that I didn't want to; that the TigerLight could NOT stand in for it; and that I would miss my M6 dearly if I was so stupid as to sell it.
So I kept it. And I'm really really glad I did. It's one of the lights I would buy first, right after an A2, if I had to start all over again.
Size15's
Flashaholic
js said:
What I mean is that lumen ratings can only really be confirmed using an integrating sphere and it is extremely difficult to tell by how much a one beam is less or more output to another even if the beam light distribution was similar and even if you did know for certain that one of the beams was outputting a known verified lumen output at the time of comparison.
It doesn't matter what the output rating is since most companies seem to overstate output and SureFire seems to understate theirs. For me the light is either not bright enough, or too bright.
Normally I perfer the High Output Lamp Assemblies but with the M6 I find myself preferring the MN20 standard output lamp assembly over the MN21 HOLA. The MN20 maintains brilliant white light for far longer than most un-regulated CR123A powered incandescent lights in my experience.
Al
js
Flashlight Enthusiast
Al,
You are, of course, correct! Point taken.
However, even so, it is better in my opinion to at least try to maintain a set of numbers which as much as possible reflect real world experience and actual beam conditions. That is why I have often been the one to point out the difference between torch lumens (tLu) and bulb lumens (bLu). It is at least MORE of a help for people trying to figure out whether a given light they are thinking of purchasing is either "not bright enough, or too bright" (or just right).
Plus, I hate the injustice of it; I hate to see people pulling the Lion's tail by putting down the SF M6 vs. their mag mods by using the under-rated SF Lumens on the one hand, and the over-rated WA bulb-lumens on the other hand. Thinking that a SF M6 is 500 lumens and a mag85 is 1234 lumens is just out to lunch and NOT reflective of reality by a long shot.
Anyway, as I said, you are right. Lumens ratings can only REALLY be confirmed via an integrating sphere. For those who would like to understand more about bulb vs. torch lumens and how I arrive at my ratings, please see my bLu vs. tLu: IS confirms 65% conversion factor thread.
You are, of course, correct! Point taken.
However, even so, it is better in my opinion to at least try to maintain a set of numbers which as much as possible reflect real world experience and actual beam conditions. That is why I have often been the one to point out the difference between torch lumens (tLu) and bulb lumens (bLu). It is at least MORE of a help for people trying to figure out whether a given light they are thinking of purchasing is either "not bright enough, or too bright" (or just right).
Plus, I hate the injustice of it; I hate to see people pulling the Lion's tail by putting down the SF M6 vs. their mag mods by using the under-rated SF Lumens on the one hand, and the over-rated WA bulb-lumens on the other hand. Thinking that a SF M6 is 500 lumens and a mag85 is 1234 lumens is just out to lunch and NOT reflective of reality by a long shot.
Anyway, as I said, you are right. Lumens ratings can only REALLY be confirmed via an integrating sphere. For those who would like to understand more about bulb vs. torch lumens and how I arrive at my ratings, please see my bLu vs. tLu: IS confirms 65% conversion factor thread.
