Need to break-in Eneloop ?

kirby

Newly Enlightened
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Just got two set of 4 Eneloop AA for Fenix TK40.

I have two Powerex MAHA MH-C9000 chargers to charge batteries.

Should I do the Break-in cycle for this type of batteries?

Thanks.
 
You own two C9000s and you have to ask this question? How will you ever get to sleep at night unless you find out the exact capacity of those eneloops? :D

Strictly speaking there is no need to run a break-in, but practically it would be a good thing to do. It will condition the batteries so you get the best performance from them. Run a 500 mA discharge first, so the break-in starts from empty.
 
Read the instruction sheet that came with them. The first thing is does is a 16 hr. charge at .1C.
 
I have a bunch of Duraloops that I've been measuring on my BC900 - I ran them all through one charge-discharge-charge cycle, and then started measuring capacity. Most are in the 2.4 - 3 amp hour range...
 
You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

I have a bunch of Duraloops that I've been measuring on my BC900 - I ran them all through one charge-discharge-charge cycle, and then started measuring capacity. Most are in the 2.4 - 3 amp hour range...
Hate to be the one to BURST YOUR BUBBLE but you're misinterpreting your BC-900 readings :confused: (i.e. confusing 'ACCUMULATED / CHARGE' Capacity with DISCHARGE Capacity :eek:). Please re-read the manual.

Also, putting back ~3Ah (3000mAh) into a 2000mAh Duraloop is a bit high (~50% OVERCHARGE).

What Charge Rate are you using? 200mA? :ohgeez: :shakehead :poke:

Please try 'THE EXPERIMENT' and post your results. :popcorn: ;)
 
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Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

Hate to be the one to BURST YOUR BUBBLE but you're misinterpreting your BC-900 readings :confused: (i.e. confusing 'ACCUMULATED / CHARGE' Capacity with DISCHARGE Capacity :eek:). Please re-read the manual.

Also, putting back ~3Ah (3000mAh) into a 2000mAh Duraloop is a bit high (~50% OVERCHARGE).

What Charge Rate are you using? 200mA? :ohgeez: :shakehead :poke:

Please try 'THE EXPERIMENT' and post your results. :popcorn: ;)

I'm not an idiot, I know how to use my charger. :rolleyes: Notice my name is BatteryCharger and how long I've been here and how many posts I have. I have over 150 Duraloops that range from at least 2.3AH, up to 3.5AH. So far I've only tested one at 1900-something mAh.

I disagree completely with your stance on a 200ma charge rate, that is what is printed on the side of the battery from Duracell. With all due respect, I think their engineers probably know more about the batteries than you do.
 
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Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

I'm not an idiot, I know how to use my charger. :rolleyes: Notice my name is BatteryCharger and how long I've been here and how many posts I have. I have over 150 Duraloops that range from at least 2.3AH, up to 3.5AH. So far I've only tested one at 1900-something mAh.

I disagree completely with your stance on a 200ma charge rate, that is what is printed on the side of the battery from Duracell. With all due respect, I think their engineers probably know more about the batteries than you do.
You can carry on as you are then -- but for the benefit of anyone else reading, lest they be confused: no AA Duraloop has a capacity greater than about 2050 mAh, and no AA size NiMH cell in the world has a capacity much greater than 2700 mAh.
 
Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

I'm not an idiot, I know how to use my charger... :rolleyes:
I'm not calling anyone an idiot. All I'm asking is that you re-read your manual re: ACCUMULATED CAPACITY vs DISCHARGE CAPACITY and try 'THE EXPERIMENT'.

...Notice my name is BatteryCharger and how long I've been here and how many posts I have...

Low Post Count != Low Knowledge and High Post Count != High Knowledge

...I have over 150 Duraloops that range from at least 2.3AH, up to 3.5AH...
Your Duraloops with 3.5AH ACCUMULATED CAPACITY are missing the -DeltaV termination (probably due to a too low Charge Rate) and slowly being damaged.

...I disagree completely with your stance on a 200ma charge rate, that is what is printed on the side of the battery from Duracell. With all due respect, I think their engineers probably know more about the batteries than you do.
SEARCH the CPF Archives for Keyword: '200mA' and User Name: SilverFox or Mr Happy. Or CLICK on my Sig Line LINK and read about Charge Rates.

200mA has it's purpose and 0.5-1.0C has it's purpose. And that's according to the engineers, not me...
 
Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

200mA has it's purpose and 0.5-1.0C has it's purpose. And that's according to the engineers, not me...

200mA is what is recommended by the Duracell engineers. That's why it's printed on every battery. But I'm sure you know more than Duracell does about their batteries...:shakehead
 
Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

Duracell has no motivation to keep your rechargeable batteries healthy. They'd rather see you destroy them quickly so that you go back to buying the alkaline kind.
 
Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

Hello BatteryCharger,

According to the information on the Duracell website, they actually recommend many different charge rates and also discuss the termination methods used with each charge rate.

Do you happen to know what method and measurement the BC-900 uses for charge termination? Using that method of termination, what charge rate does Duracell actually recommend?

Their actual recommended charge termination is based on temperature. It is too bad that they don't offer any chargers that use this for primary charge termination.

Tom
 
Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

Duracell has no motivation to keep your rechargeable batteries healthy. They'd rather see you destroy them quickly so that you go back to buying the alkaline kind.

Actually, they do. If these batteries fail quickly, then they get a bad reputation. Remember the Energizer 2500s that were quickly replaced with 2450's - and now everybody's afraid to even try the 2450s and Energizer's name is dirt.
 
Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

200mA is what is recommended by the Duracell engineers. That's why it's printed on every battery. But I'm sure you know more than Duracell does about their batteries...:shakehead
With due respect BatteryCharger....the link SiverFox give to Duracell charging advice says nothing about 200ma being a recommend rate but instead this cut & paste from their pdf on NiMh maintenance ...

6.2 Techniques for Charge Control
The characteristics of the nickel-metal hydride
battery define the need for proper charge control in
order to terminate the charge and prevent overcharging
or exposure to high temperatures. Each charge control
technique has its advantages and disadvantages. For
example, higher capacity levels are achieved with a 150
percent charge input, but at the expense of cycle life;
long cycle life is attained with a 105 to 110 percent
charge input, albeit with slightly lower capacity due to
less charge input.

if I understand that correctly 105%-110% on a 2000mAh Duracell would then be like 2000mA current charge and that is 10x 200mA. So for sake of discussion could you explain how you come up with the 200mA rate? I am still learning this stuff as I just got a C9000 a few weeks ago myself.
cheers,
Ken
 
Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

200mA is what is recommended by the Duracell engineers. That's why it's printed on every battery. But I'm sure you know more than Duracell does about their batteries...:shakehead
PISSING OFF other CPF Members isn't my goal here. Rather, I consider myself a CONDUIT / PARROT / TEACHER.

...What TTA is trying to do helps out quite a bit. I saw a number of things I didn't notice before. -- And I've been reading CPF-batteries for over a year or so!

I think the way he's organizing the information is quite good. Almost exceptional, if I might say so myself.

Keep up the good work! Don't let any naysayers stop ya!
:xyxgun:
I've personally invested *MANY* (100? / 200? / MORE!) hours of my personal time reading the CPF 'Batteries Included' Archives.
I've READ.
I've ABSORBED.
I've EXPERIMENTED.
I've LEARNED! :D
And the *BEST*, IMHO, of what I've learned, I've shared in my Sig Line LINK. :twothumbs

IMHO, MANY of the *BEST* THEORETICAL DISCUSSIONS occurred *YEARS* ago, when this 'Rechargeable Cell Technology' was (relatively) *NEW* to most of them. Personally, I don't 'Give a Hoot' as to how long you've been a CPF Member, or how many posts you've accumulated. :tired:

The *MOST* important criteria are:
  1. WHAT KNOWLEDGE HAVE *YOU* OBTAINED?!? :thinking:
  2. WHAT KNOWLEDGE ARE YOU PASSING ON TO *OTHERS*?!? :thumbsup:

From my perspective, repeatedly BEATING ON YOUR CHEST doesn't *MAGICALLY* grant you CREDIBILITY. TWO of CPF's "ACKNOWLEDGED GURU's" have already DIPLOMATICALLY (*NOT* one of my strong points :eek:) replied to this thread:
  1. You can carry on as you are then -- but for the benefit of anyone else reading, lest they be confused: no AA Duraloop has a capacity greater than about 2050 mAh, and no AA size NiMH cell in the world has a capacity much greater than 2700 mAh.
  2. ...According to the information on the Duracell website, they actually recommend many different charge rates and also discuss the termination methods used with each charge rate.

    Do you happen to know what method and measurement the BC-900 uses for charge termination? Using that method of termination, what charge rate does Duracell actually recommend?

    Their actual recommended charge termination is based on temperature. It is too bad that they don't offer any chargers that use this for primary charge termination
    ...
    Code:
    TECHNICAL BULLETIN
    Charging Sealed Ni-MH Batteries
    
    Charging Methods
    
    Recommended Charge Procedure:
    
        * For fast charging and optimum performance, Duracell recommends a three-step procedure:
             1. Charge at 1C rate, terminated by using dT/dt = 1°C (1.8°F)/minute
             2. Apply a C/10 top-up charge, terminated by a timer after 1/2 hour charge (optional, not required)
             3. Apply a maintenance charge of indefinite duration at C/300 rate 
        * The recommended charge procedure should be used with a backup temperature cutoff of 60°C (140°F). 
    
    Alternate Charge Procedures Include:
    
        * Low-rate charge (~12 hours): Charge at C/10 with a time-limited charge termination.
        * Quick charge (~4 hours): Charge at C/3 with a -V = 10 mV/cell.
        * Fast charge (~1 hour): Charge at C/2 to 1C rate with either -V, or T termination.
        * Trickle charge: Constant charge at C/300 rate to maintain full charge.
    Reference: Silverfox's Duracell LINK (from above)

Along with a CPF member:
Duracell has no motivation to keep your rechargeable batteries healthy. They'd rather see you destroy them quickly so that you go back to buying the alkaline kind.

Now, back to you:
Actually, they do. If these batteries fail quickly, then they get a bad reputation. Remember the Energizer 2500s that were quickly replaced with 2450's - and now everybody's afraid to even try the 2450s and Energizer's name is dirt.
Where is Energizer's name DIRT outside of the knowledgeable members that visit this forum?

Listen man, FROM THE HEART, I'm *NOT* here to give you grief / attack you / etc...

Take a DEEP BREATH, calm down, and run "THE EXPERIMENT". Then, BE A MAN, and post your results. :cool:

BTW, *MY* results have already been posted in VARIOUS threads related to this same topic. :D

P.S. Regarding my "more than the casual member" usage of the various FORMATTING PARAMETERS:

Well... ...Why build something into the software if there is no need/demand for it and it never gets used? Crazy! Just crazy! :crazy:
lovecpf
:thanks:

;)

:cool:

LISTEN to your 'normal text' as if the words were spoken by the DIGITAL BOX that Stephen Hawkins *HAS* TO USE - MONOTONE! Then, listen to how people ACTUALLY speak to one another - louder, softer, pitch higher, pitch lower, etc...

THAT'S what you gain from utilizing the FORMAT PARAMETERS! :)
  • PLAIN TEXT - ROBOT sounding.
    .
  • FORMATTED TEXT - HUMAN sounding (although it DOES look 'different')
 
I have never before seen such a diplomatic handling of this kind of situation. :clap:You so very well outlined your credibility while emphasizing how you're only trying to educate and not brow beat. That's the spirit these kinds of forums are made of. We all learn some good stuff and then share it with others. There's no place for competition ("I know more than you do" sh*t). We're all here to learn and improve, using the knowledge we get here to make all of our lives better. Symbiosis, man. :thumbsup:
 
Re: You Can't Pour 3 Gallons From a 2 Gallon Jug...

So for sake of discussion could you explain how you come up with the 200mA rate?

IT'S PRINTED ON THE SIDE OF THE BATTERY!

How many times do I have to say that? Nothing some stranger says on the internet will overule for me what Duracell themselves write directly on the battery. THEY KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO ABOUT THEIR OWN BATTERIES! Period!
 
Just so we're all clear on the most current and accurate recommendation directly from Duracell:
duracell.jpg

Notice the part where it says "Standard charge 200mA for 16h"

I don't care what kind of info internet battery geeks dig up, that is the most obvious recommendation from the manufacturer. If Duracell didn't want your batteries to last very long, they wouldn't have chosen Sanyo as the OEM - they would all be black top made in China batteries. The engineers who work for Duracell aren't stupid, they know as well as you and me how good Eneloops are, and that's why they chose them mostly over the Rayovac style.

I've never actually looked at a real Eneloop, but I would be willing to guess they make the same recommendation.
 
A bunch o'stuff we already know about what is written on the side of Duracell rechargeable batteries
You know, you can keep mouthing off and making a fool of yourself, or you can stop and listen. It doesn't seem you want to listen though.

Once again, for the benefit of others reading, what is written on the side of the battery is not a recommendation about the best charging method -- even if it is easy to assume so. It is a description of the charging method that will produce an average capacity measurement of 2000 mAh as also printed on the side of the battery. You can use that charging method, but there are better ones to use that ultimately will improve the performance you get from the battery.

You can read the long and detailed Duracell technical note linked to by Silverfox, or you can read the five little words that fit on the side of an AA cell. The choice is yours.
 
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