Neoseikan - Malkoff- similarities- possible patent issues?

[GarageBoy]

Not one to stir the pot, but I thought Malkoff had a patent on the heat sink design for P60 type drop ins?

This is Neoseikans prototype pics

 

[bigchelis]

I thought Neoseikan is not U.S. based.:thinking:

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Not one to stir the pot, but I thought Malkoff had a patent on the heat sink design for P60 type drop ins?

This is Neoseikans prototype pics

The Malkoff site says "Patent pending," and US patents require a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of lawyer juice to go after other countries.

 

[kramer5150]

I don't think it can really be discussed in detail, without actually seeing Genes patent and understanding specifically what it entails.

Can you really enforce a patent against somebody making stuff in his garage, and selling sporadically to friends and others?

*edit*
Curious... if Neo made his out of pure copper, gold or silver (nstead of brass) could he avoid patent violations by saying "mine is better because it uses superior thermal materials"?

 

[Colorblinded]

The Malkoff site says "Patent pending," and US patents require a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of lawyer juice to go after other countries.

Indeed.

I'm sick of our failed patent system anyway at this point.

 

[neoseikan]

Though out side of U.S., I still don't want to do things wrong, so that I will try to make something different in the shape.
"Patent pending" has a main problem: I can not read the documents in the patent office website, so I have to guess what they are about. Sorry Markoff and guys, I will change the shape if it touched the patent parts.

 

[bigchelis]

Neoseikan,

You could make it out of copper

I for one would pay the premium knowing my module has copper. I think if you went the copper route you could even put an SST-50 at 2.8A with no problems at all.

The Surefire TiR Optic designed for XR-E R2 can and does fit the SST-50. I saw a nice beam and it foucuses the SST-50 too.

I can't wait to get my sample:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[sfca]

The Surefire TiR Optic designed for XR-E R2 can and does fit the SST-50. I saw a nice beam and it foucuses the SST-50 too.

Ahhhhhhhhh really?! Somebody do this!
Now!

 

[sfca]

Though out side of U.S., I still don't want to do things wrong, so that I will try to make something different in the shape.
"Patent pending" has a main problem: I can not read the documents in the patent office website, so I have to guess what they are about. Sorry Markoff and guys, I will change the shape if it touched the patent parts.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you have done anything wrong, unless you know for certain.

Why don't you contact Gene Malkoff directly?
I mean if you do change the shape this first step may negate doing anything at all! :thumbsup:

This post is a good read about it.

 

[Sgt. LED]

If it's a problem for Gene then he can hash it out with Neo.
Why is this a public discussion? Oh and Neo's item is in the prototype stage so it's not actionable even if it was a total rip-off. I understand wanting to look out for Gene but I think some members are being over zealous at this point.

Give it some time guys. They are both good and resonable people so I am sure things will work out just fine without us involved.

 

[neoseikan]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you have done anything wrong, unless you know for certain.

Why don't you contact Gene Malkoff directly?
I mean if you do change the shape this first step may negate doing anything at all! :thumbsup:

This post is a good read about it.

Ah. Thank you!
That's not a design patent, but a utility patent, about functions.

 

[Kid9P]

If it's a problem for Gene then he can hash it out with Neo.
Why is this a public discussion? Oh and Neo's item is in the prototype stage so it's not actionable even if it was a total rip-off. I understand wanting to look out for Gene but I think some members are being over zealous at this point.

Give it some time guys. They are both good and resonable people so I am sure things will work out just fine without us involved.

Well said Sarge :twothumbs

 

[artec540]

Ah. Thank you!
That's not a design patent, but a utility patent, about functions.

Depending on what countries are covered by any particular patent, a product can be identical to a patented one and not have any conflict.

Depending on how the patent is written it's unlikely that changing the shape or even the material of a component would avoid a conflict.

I'm certainly not a patent lawyer but I went through the pain of patenting a product and in my case, the material of which it was made could not be part of the specification. I don't know if that's always the case.

Neoseikan would do much better, I think, to get in touch with Malkoff and ask him for a copy of the pending spec. Most such specs are carefully written to cover as many variations as possible precisely to avoid someone coming along and doing the same thing with an ellipse instead of a circle, figuratively speaking.

 

[kyhunter1]

After reading this, it appears that Neo does not violate his patent based just on the shape of the heatsink. From the way the patent reads, many builders and modders around here violate Malkoff's patent all the time. Who does not use a heat sink design on there high end dropins? I really dont see what the big deal is all about myself. Give Neo some space. If Gene has a problem with it, Im sure he will let him know about it.

I
This post is a good read about it.

 

[Noctis]

Neoseikan,

You could make it out of copper

I for one would pay the premium knowing my module has copper. I think if you went the copper route you could even put an SST-50 at 2.8A with no problems at all.

The Surefire TiR Optic designed for XR-E R2 can and does fit the SST-50. I saw a nice beam and it foucuses the SST-50 too.

I can't wait to get my sample:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Agreed.

Make no mistake, Gene's work is nice, but he doesn't hang around the extreme output areas of mods even though I'm sure his module could handle it.

It simply seems a shame to have such a heatsink without any real heat.

Though I wouldn't mind having a low voltage option for those of us who want to run the light on a single lithium cell. God knows a single lithium cell can drive an XP-G to 1.5A.

 

[gcbryan]

A patent for a flashlight part seems like such a waste of money. There isn't enough money generated by the sale of flashlight parts to justify the expense in obtaining a patent in the first place or in defending it after the fact.

 

[mike.s]

Not one to stir the pot, but I thought Malkoff had a patent on the heat sink design for P60 type drop ins?

Patent 7633229 (that the only patent a search for inventor Gene Malkoff turns up) is pretty specific, and from that picture, it doesn't look like it is anywhere close to infringing. Specifically, it lacks "a slot running the length of the main cylindrical body that allows the diameter of the main cylindrical body to be adjusted so that the heat sink can be inserted into the flashlight body," amongst other features. Look at the images in the patent linked above.

 

[kramer5150]

Neoseikan,

You could make it out of copper

I for one would pay the premium knowing my module has copper. I think if you went the copper route you could even put an SST-50 at 2.8A with no problems at all.

I have always believed copper (generally) is a superior thermal conductor than (most grades) of brass. I have posted openly on CPF this opinion, and without actual proof... I was shot down. At work I have ASICS and SMT packages that are run on the brink of thermal overload... and copper heatsinking has saved the design. it is $$$ so its always done as a last resort, when space restrictions are insufficient for Aluminum designs.

Neo... I think you should give copper a try. Make it as heavy and thick walled as possible and you should have a superior thermal design. The malkoff modules are very thin walled, although the gaps are fiilled with thermal epoxy. So, theres definitely room for improvement.

:thumbsup:

 

[flashfiend]

Why not aluminum? I thought aluminum was worse than copper but better than brass at thermal transfer. Plus aluminum is lighter and afaik cheaper.

 

[kramer5150]

Why not aluminum? I thought aluminum was worse than copper but better than brass at thermal transfer. Plus aluminum is lighter and afaik cheaper.

Aluminum is darn near impossible to solder onto. I have had to scrap a couple DIY projects because of this. As compared to brass and copper... which solder with ease. Brass doesn't even really need flux.