Next generation of chargers

[sfca]

It'd be great if there was a new generation of chargers ready to be released.

I'm hesitant to consider a charger because 1) cost of charger ($50)
+ battery ($15)
+ bore (??)/or new flashlight that can accept 18650 batteries ($??).
+a new ZTS battery tester ($75) cause the mini-ZTS I have doesn't do rechargeables

+ I still got a box of 40 CR123a's. But I want the best run-time!

Most important thing though is that I'm worried about the safety of even the best cells with the Pila charger.
I want to be able to leave home with my batteries charging and still have complete peace of mind as I'm out.

Going to happen soon?

 

[moldyoldy]

the shortest answer is - no.....

A longer answer: I would not leave any rechargeable lithium cell (nominally Li-Ion) on charge and walk out of the house or apartment - no matter which charger or which RCR123 or 16340 or 18650 or LiPO4 or whatever, even the Pila IBC and I had one of those too.

 

[rmteo]

I would not leave any rechargeable lithium cell (nominally Li-Ion) on charge and walk out of the house or apartment - no matter which charger or which RCR123 or 16340 or 18650 or LiPO4 or whatever, even the Pila IBC and I had one of those too.

With properly designed equipment, this should not be a problem. Has been for years.

 

[DM51]

Please post in the correct forum. Moving this to Batteries/Electronics...

 

[Patriot]

With properly designed equipment, this should not be a problem. Has been for years.

...but it still is. To be perfectly honest, I've left my cell phone charging many times but the risk is minute because reasons including capacity and resistance to outside damage. When you start talking about larger cells and charging products that aren't sold in the millions like cell phones, the risk increases. Even with properly designed equipment that doesn't preclude the possibility of failure or unknown consequential damage. I can hook a $100 li-po pack to my $150 dollar hobby charger with every precaution including a properly designed, fire resistant charging area, but this doesn't completely eliminate the possibility or lower the odds enough for me to risk my entire house. Li-ion is safer and more fire resistant than li-po but still, a single 18650 has enough energy in it to really create a problem should anything go wrong. I suppose that if I just absolutely had to charge while away, I'd plug it in outside on the concrete patio and remove all flammables in a 5 foot radius. Inside, forget it, too many things to catch fire. If you charge li-ion while away, you increase your risk greatly vs. if you only charge while present.

With all that said, the Pila charger is the best and a rechargeable set-up is indispensable compared to primary only use. Once you convert you'll love the flexibility. You don't need an extravagant battery tester and any inexpensive DIMM will do if you're trying to reduce your expense.

 

[rmteo]

Just about every piece of portable consumer electronic equipment - laptops, cellphones, digital cameras, media players, etc. - made/sold in the last 5 years uses some form of rechargeable lithium cell (generally Li-Ion, Li-Po or LiFePO4) as its power source. You are looking at literally tens (if not hundreds) of millions of devices - each with one or more Lithium based cells for power. In fact, the 18650 was designed for and is used primarily in laptop/notebook computers.

A typical laptop battery contains 8x 18650 cells, a 4S2P, 14.8V, 4600mAH configuration is common - far higher capacity than you would typically see in a flashlight application. When was the last time you saw a laptop that came with fire resistant charging container? This is what I mean by properly designed equipment.

 

[Marduke]

Just about every piece of portable consumer electronic equipment - laptops, cellphones, digital cameras, media players, etc. - made/sold in the last 5 years uses some form of rechargeable lithium cell (generally Li-Ion, Li-Po or LiFePO4) as its power source. You are looking at literally tens (if not hundreds) of millions of devices - each with one or more Lithium based cells for power. In fact, the 18650 was designed for and is used primarily in laptop/notebook computers.

A typical laptop battery contains 8x 18650 cells, a 4S2P, 14.8V, 4600mAH configuration is common - far higher capacity than you would typically see in a flashlight application. When was the last time you saw a laptop that came with fire resistant charging container? This is what I mean by properly designed equipment.

Those consumer electronics were designed from the ground up as a complete SYSTEM, with multiple failsafes taken into consideration, and they still routinely have incidents all around the world. Flashlights, your cells, and charger are NOT designed as a system, and do NOT have the same failsafes in place.

You cannot compare a total system with the individual components that make up that system.

Comparing typical consumer electronics to our high end light setups is similar to comparing a factory Cessna 172 to a homebuilt airplane assembled in some guy's garage. The same basic building blocks are all there, but execution and operation are WORLDS APART.

 

[T0RN4D0]

Do you people unplug your laptos when you arent around? Or watch over your cell phones when charging? I think you are a bit paranoid. If you are worried about fire so much you probably have insurance to cover it in case your house burns down :twothumbs

I know i wouldn't worry that much even with a pair of some cheap chinafire pair of batteries and the cheapest charger you can find on ebay ž

Even though chargers and batteries aren't designed as a system, that doesn't mean they are designed to explode. Any brand name can't afford that. (could be more of a problem with nonames, but still...)


EDIT: A lot of flashlights DO have failsafes, protected batteries DO have failsafes and of course every decent chargers does have a failsafe.

 

[45/70]

Comparing typical consumer electronics to our high end light setups is similar to comparing a factory Cessna 172 to a homebuilt airplane assembled in some guy's garage. The same basic building blocks are all there, but execution and operation are WORLDS APART.

Marduke hit the nail on the head. The Li-Ion battery cells we use in flashlights were never intended to be used in flashlights. There isn't a Li-Ion cell manufactuer in the world, that I know of, that will sell individual, or "loose" as their called, cells to the consumer. As far as I know, there is no manufacturer that produces individually protected cells either.

I think part of the problem in understanding the misunderstandings about loose Li-Ion cells, is many have been brainwashed into thinking that sources such as xxxxxFire actually manufacture cells. They don't. They are distributors.

Often, these distributors buy up cells from the manufacturers that don't "cut the grade" for some reason or another for use in battery packs. They then relabel them and optionally, add their own protection circuit PCB, that is setup for a specific load. Often, these protection circuits are not designed for your specific light, but rather a rough guesstimate of how they will be used. This is part of the reason why manufacturers don't sell loose cells.

I think you guys that don't have any safety concerns about charging loose Li-Ion cells, should get together with the various postal services worldwide, that refuse to carry loose Li-Ion cells. After all, as you know, or should know, the most dangerous part of handling loose Li-Ion cells is when charging, not when simply transporting them. Give 'em a call, and good luck! :thumbsup:

Dave

 

[rmteo]

Interesting - if you go to www.usps.com and do a search for "lithium", the only result is:

Search Results Summary
[MS EXCEL] Catalog
... h5550, 65, 195-J01, 2880 mAh Lithium-Ion Extended Battery for hx2750, 66, ... USPS
mailstream, 165, 409-A02, Lithium-Ion Battery for Deskjet 450cbi, ...
www.usps.com/suppliers/_xls/HP-ADEPT2.xls - 2006-09-08 - Text Version

 

[Marduke]

Interesting - if you go to www.usps.com and do a search for "lithium", the only result is:

Search Results Summary
[MS EXCEL] Catalog
... h5550, 65, 195-J01, 2880 mAh Lithium-Ion Extended Battery for hx2750, 66, ... USPS
mailstream, 165, 409-A02, Lithium-Ion Battery for Deskjet 450cbi, ...
www.usps.com/suppliers/_xls/HP-ADEPT2.xls - 2006-09-08 - Text Version

Please spend more than 2 second searching...

Try here.

 

[rmteo]

Doesn't change the fact that a search of "lithium" on usps.com returns a single result.

 

[Marduke]

Doesn't change the fact that a search of "lithium" on usps.com returns a single result.

Because government transport regulations are not hosted on that site...

 

[rmteo]

Still doesn't change the fact that a search of "lithium" on usps.com returns a single result.

 

[Marduke]

Still doesn't change the fact that a search of "lithium" on usps.com returns a single result.

Or that you are totally missing the point....

 

[rmteo]

Read my lips (err, I mean my post)

Interesting - if you go to www.usps.com and do a search for "lithium", the only result is:

 

[moldyoldy]

before retirement, I switched out of straight design in to IT supporting engineering in a large engineering firm. When the personal field of view is raised from a handful of devices to hundreds if not thousands, then the failures become much more visible - and the reviewer becomes much more cautious!

Try talking to a executive whose cellphone battery shorted out in his pocket on a business trip. Personal decorum in a public place suddenly was replaced by personal survival. Yes, the cellphone battery melted the cellphone, fortunately not the skin on his leg. He only had to purchase a new pair of pants. Or talk to a pilot whose emergency locator beacon Lithium battery started a fire in his aircraft. and we all have seen the videos of flaming laptops in seminars. High-energy devices even in well-designed systems are not inherently safe. period.

Marduke and 45/70 and probably others that I do not remember stated the situation correctly. Nearly all of the commercially sold systems incorporating batteries have been designed with considerable safeguards starting from the charger thru the charging parameters, the battery itself including production of the battery, and the other protection devices in the battery case besides the battery.

The point is that us flashaholics are tinkering with various individual components of high-energy storage devices and too casually plugging one device into the other without adequate long-term monitoring.

From an USAF past - all battery charging shall be monitored. That old adage is just as good today as it was in the '60s.