Objective comparison of HID and LED flashlight outputs

hlritter

Newly Enlightened
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Jun 15, 2008
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Out of curiosity, I have just completed a comparison test in which I roughly quantified the total useful light output of several high-end LED and HID flashlights.

The methodology:

1. A Nikon D300 digital SLR was mounted on a tripod pointed at a wall in a dark room with a white ceiling
2. The camera was set to aperture-preference mode so that the shutter-speed readout would be the only parameter varying with the illumination
3. Each light in turn was turned on and aimed at the ceiling directly above the camera and held at a distance that put the whole of the secondary beam pattern on the ceiling. The only light not falling directly on the ceiling was the third-order spillover, which does not contribute significantly to the useful beam pattern and does not contain much light flux in any case
4. The shutter speed (i.e., exposure time) was read from the camera meter for each light

The effect of reading the light intensity off a wall illuminated by diffusely reflected light from the beam falling on the ceiling is to sample the integrated total illumination produced by the flashlight, eliminating the variations due to the different beam-intensity profiles--the beam contour and the beam width. Linearity of response by the meter is assumed, consistent with the linear response of the camera's detector operating in an ordinary range of light values.

The results:

(Meter readings are reciprocal seconds, e.g., 100 indicates 1/100 of a second, so that the values are in direct proportion to the total light output.)

Light (nominal power): Nominal Lumens/Meter Reading

Microfire Warrior III (35 W HID): 3500/100

Microfire Warrior II (24 W HID): 1800/40

Microfire Challenger 500 (12 W total LED x 7) (full power): 700/40

Microfire Terminator II (12 W HID): 500/20

Microfire Challenger 500 (<1 W total? LED x 7) (low power): 100/2.5

SureFire Lumamax L7 (5 W LED x 1): 100/5

SureFire Lumamax L4 (5 W LED x 1): 100/4



The conspicuous outlier here (in a positive sense) is the Challenger L500R at full power, producing 40% of the light of the Warrior III, whereas Microfire's own figures would have it producing only 20%. The low-power setting, on the other hand, is consistent with the claims for it and the W-III: about 2.5% of the W-III (claims work out to 3%) but not consistent with the claims for the same light at its low power and high power settings (6% measured vs. 14% per claims). Since SureFire prides itself on its objective and rational integrating measurements of its lights' outputs, and since the two SF lights give mutually pretty consistent results, I am inclined to use them as calibrators, giving a ratio of approximately 1 (arbitrary) unit per 20 lumens.

The Challenger at full power gives results slightly (15%) higher than consistent with this, and the Terminator II slightly (20%) lower. The Challenger at low power and both Warriors are substantially lower, around 50% of claimed in all instances.

This gives the fan of HID, like me, pause. The Challenger is equal or superior in all respects to the Warrior II: similar price and light output, shorter and lighter package, better color and beam uniformity, instant-on, no restriction on rapid cycling, low-power working option, and (surprisingly to me, as I thought that HID bulbs were more efficient than LEDs), doing it all at half the battery drain and therefore twice the runtime with the same battery (12 vs. 24 W and 100 vs. 50 min per mfr). And undoubtedly more shock-resistant. Look for my W-II on eBay!

--howard
 
This gives the fan of HID, like me, pause. The Challenger is equal or superior in all respects to the Warrior II: similar price and light output, shorter and lighter package, better color and beam uniformity, instant-on, no restriction on rapid cycling, low-power working option, and (surprisingly to me, as I thought that HID bulbs were more efficient than LEDs), doing it all at half the battery drain and therefore twice the runtime with the same battery (12 vs. 24 W and 100 vs. 50 min per mfr). And undoubtedly more shock-resistant.


Thanks for sharing the fun experiment but keep in mind that the camera's sensor is going to be more more sensitive to certain wave lengths than others.

From ever thing I've gathered and beamshots that I've studied the WE Boxer 24W and Microfire II seemed to be about equal in performance. I could never really see any difference between them. I've never owned the Warrior II but I did own a Boxer. I've also never owned the Challenger but I've owned Mac's Sceptre http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=177516 rated at 1100 lumens. Although I suppose that the wide beam and wavelength of the Sceptre may be able to fool the camera into thinking it was brighter is wasn't really brighter in actual use. There is no question that Mircrofire overates it's HID lumen figures and the K3500 is no exception. Most of us feel that the Warrior III is probably closer to 2600 bulb lumens or so. Like wise I'm sure that the Warrior II is also closer to 1300+ bulb lumens.

Besides sensor response, there are a several other things that aren't taken into account in this type of test. Remember that the microfire lights that you tested aren't representative of all HID and are on the low end of the performance spectrum. The higher quality lights do have instant on ability or close to it. This test also doesn't take beam throw into account which the multi-LED is far inferior since it can't match the throw of the Warrior II or even a several 10W HID lights. The Mac's mini or Jil EZnite will out throw practically every production multi-led light made. Quality HID lights also provide better color temperature than LEDs, around 4000-4200K. LEDs aren't there yet.

There is no doubt that as LED continue to get brighter and more efficient that they'll be closing the gap on the lower wattage HID but they're still a ways off. HID vs LED vs Incan is a very popular subject around here and there are many threads which discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each type of system. You may enjoy searching these threads and reading about them since you've convinced yourself to sell you HID's because of your test.

Perhaps you might also enjoy taking beamshots of each light that you tested by locking the aperture and WB, then comparing each light at the park or some other place of actual usage. This is generally a good method for comparing different beam types.
 
i did really enjoy your findings hlritter and appreciated your opinion. i have the W-II and was actually disappointed in the time it takes to even turn on and it also isnt as bright as i had hoped. but im still happy because i got two of them for half the price of one. and thanks patriot, i learned a lot from waht you had to say, as usual.
 
I think another issue you run into (including the camera responding significantly different to different wavelengths dependant on the color temp setting in addition), is that it will not be linear and generally that is done on purpose to extend dynamic range and make for better pictures. Short of having an industrial or scientific camera with a true linear response, it will be tough to get repeatable results.

Semiman
 
Thanks for sharing the fun experiment but keep in mind that the camera's sensor is going to be more more sensitive to certain wave lengths than others.

From ever thing I've gathered and beamshots that I've studied the WE Boxer 24W and Microfire II seemed to be about equal in performance. I could never really see any difference between them. I've never owned the Warrior II but I did own a Boxer. I've also never owned the Challenger but I've owned Mac's Sceptre http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=177516 rated at 1100 lumens. Although I suppose that the wide beam and wavelength of the Sceptre may be able to fool the camera into thinking it was brighter is wasn't really brighter in actual use. There is no question that Mircrofire overates it's HID lumen figures and the K3500 is no exception. Most of us feel that the Warrior III is probably closer to 2600 bulb lumens or so. Like wise I'm sure that the Warrior II is also closer to 1300+ bulb lumens.

Besides sensor response, there are a several other things that aren't taken into account in this type of test. Remember that the microfire lights that you tested aren't representative of all HID and are on the low end of the performance spectrum. The higher quality lights do have instant on ability or close to it. This test also doesn't take beam throw into account which the multi-LED is far inferior since it can't match the throw of the Warrior II or even a several 10W HID lights. The Mac's mini or Jil EZnite will out throw practically every production multi-led light made. Quality HID lights also provide better color temperature than LEDs, around 4000-4200K. LEDs aren't there yet.

There is no doubt that as LED continue to get brighter and more efficient that they'll be closing the gap on the lower wattage HID but they're still a ways off. HID vs LED vs Incan is a very popular subject around here and there are many threads which discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each type of system. You may enjoy searching these threads and reading about them since you've convinced yourself to sell you HID's because of your test.

Perhaps you might also enjoy taking beamshots of each light that you tested by locking the aperture and WB, then comparing each light at the park or some other place of actual usage. This is generally a good method for comparing different beam types.

I just read hlritter's test results and patriot36' response and it occurs to me that the camera's response to the light reflected of the ceiling is going to depend to some extent on the spread of the beam. hlritter said he placed the flashlight so that the outer edge of the main part of the beam pattern was just on the ceiling. If one of the flashlights has a very broad beam , without much of a hot spot, versus another with a narrow one and very little spread, the skinny one will be nearer the wall and more of the light will be reflected onto the wall than in the case of the broad one. While this effect may not be very large, I would expect it to be significant.

Does this make any sense?
 
I think that hlritter was just saying that he made sure that the hot spot and the corona of the beam fit into the area of the ceiling and the he made that adjustment by varying the distance of each light in order to make sure the beam fit. One note about the multi-led lights is that they don't typically have a separately defined hot spot and corona. The beam from these lights often appears as one solid wall of light which tappers off in intensity from the center outwards with no defined steps. My guess it that is would be difficult to know exactly where the edges of the beam were in order to make it fit into the ceiling boundaries during the test. How that would actually effect the test, I have no idea....just a point of interest I suppose.

I'd still love to see these lights compared while photographing each actual beam at some objects of known distances. 50 yards, 100 yards..and so on. My thought is that the "24W" & "35W" HID lights would outperform that particular multi-led with a fairly wide margin to spare.
 
I've closed the duplicate thread to this one in the General section. Please would you note what I have said in the closing post there about cross-posting.

I'm afraid there are some rules you will have to get used to, but don't worry - they'll begin to make sense after a while.

In the meantime, welcome to CPF!
 
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I by no means wish to hyjack your thread, so simply ask and I will gladly remove these photos. I took three shots a while back with a Q5 Fenix T1, a P7 ElektroLumens Longthrow and a 35w Acro HID.

These the Q5 and P7 are some of (if not 'the') best and most powerful leds currently availible. The 35W hid is a middle-weight hid.... plenty dimmer and many brighter. I love the P7 led light, but the hid is in another legue all together.

The T1 High (2sec exp...all Iso 64 f/2.8)
2565135956_0e56de40c6.jpg

P7 longthrow
2564311897_d443ac37f9.jpg

Acro 35w hid
2565137654_890531eebb.jpg


If I could only have one of the two, I do not know which I would pick between the longthrow and the acro. But their is no contest as to which is more powerful.
 
I did a huge comparison of the ouput of LED's, incan's, a few HID lights here. There are of course tons of pictures.
 
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