P4 Drop-In + G2 all nitrolon + primaries = ?

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sunfire

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Hello people!
I just bought a Solarforce LC-1 Drop-In with Cree P4 LED Single Mode for my SF G2 all nitrolon, to use w/ primaries. It didn't arrive yet. I have no idea how will work. :shakehead
My questions are:
-Lumens?
-Runtime?
-Runtime without heat issues?

Can anybody help me?

TIA! :D
 
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Well welcome to CPF! The lumens and runtime should of been described accurately *cough* when you brought the drop-in.
 
Well welcome to CPF! The lumens and runtime should of been described accurately *cough* when you brought the drop-in.

I'm looking for accurate *cough* numbers to this specific combo. :ironic:
 
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I'm looking for accurate *cough* numbers to this specific combo. :ironic:
Hi there sunfire, I'm sure no offense was meant, one of the favorite jokes on CPF is to poke fun at the specs from some of the 'optimistic' LED drop-ins out there. :huh:
:welcome:
 
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Hi there sunfire, I'm sure no offense was meant, one of the favorite jokes on CPF is to poke fun at the specs from some of the 'optimistic' LED drop-ins out there. :huh:
:welcome:
No, no.:cool: I understand the *cough* joke :naughty::crackup:Maybe a wrong "smile" in that quote :o
I'm looking for numbers to know how this combo will act. My big concern is about how many minutes can I run without heat problem.
I don't want anything :poof: inside my G2!:toilet:
Runtime and lumens info will be good too, but manufacturer's level of accuracy *cough* is not required.:sick: :D

Sorry about my english.
:thumbsup:
 
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Would you know the voltage range for your particular module, either the low-voltage unit (0.8-4.2v) or the standard-type unit (3.7-8.4 volts - or whatever)?

Edit: I'm guessing you'll be receiving the standard-voltage unit, from what I've read on CPF is that they operate with somewhat reduced output on a single 3.7v LiIon. One good configuration to keep the heat down (yes heat could be an issue with your config) would be to change over to LiIon rechargeables, you can use a single cell (17670) that is the same length as 2xCR123, and your runtimes will be excellent. I'm not sure how bright the resultant output would be (it could range from excellent (i.e. indistinguishable from output on the higher-voltage 2xCR123) to mediocre (still plenty bright). I have the standard-voltage drop-in myself, I can try it on a single 3.7v LiIon, check the output, and get back to you. Just a thought, let me know if you're interested in that route.
 
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You can parameterize the problem to bracket the solution. It would help, however, if you knew the drive current for the drop-in. But let's assume the fairly typical 1A drive. You should double-check my calculations and methodology below since I'm doing it on the fly.

Vf could be between say 3.5V and 3.7V. This link says 3.6V.

Thus Pled could range from 3.5W to 3.7W, and we might assume 3.6W.

I typically assume an LED efficiency of 20%, which means waste heat from the LED of about ~2.8W to ~3.0W, with our assumed value equal to ~2.9W.

Driver efficiency could range from about 65% to 90%. The driver in the DX6090 has an efficiency toward the lower end (about 70%) and has a reputation for relatively hot operation (it is a Cree XR-E P4 drop-in, in fact). I've measured close to 90% efficiency for some of the drivers from The Sandwich Shoppe. 80% is sort of a target value IMO that represents good efficiency. So let's assume that the Solarforce driver is 80% efficient (but that our uncertainty ranges from 65% to 90%).

Thus, Pdriver ranges from a low of ~3.9W to high of ~5.7W. Our assume Pled combined with our assumed driver efficiency gives us Pdriver = 4.5W.

The waste heat from the driver thus ranges from ~0.4W to ~2.3W, with our assume value equal to about 0.9W.

Thus, total waste heat could range from about 3.2W to 5.3W, with an assumed value of about 3.8W.

Put your hand on a 4W night light incandescent bulb. That's about the amount of heat you might expect to generate.

I've run my DX6090 for several minutes continuous in the course of bench testing it on a bench power supply. During that time, the drop-in got very hot to the touch (the drop-in was sitting in air, out of the flashlight body). This could be comparable to an all-Nitrolon environment, where there is not much to transfer the heat away from the metal drop-in (actually, the Nitrolon case could be worse, since there is less convection to help cool the drop-in).

I've done some thermocouple measurements on other drop-ins and when the perception is burning hot, the surface temperature is usually over 130F (54C), and probably hotter (especially if you are up at the high end toward about 5W total waste heat). When you then factor in the junction to solder point thermal resistance of 8C/W, the LED's junction temp is about 30C hotter than the heat sink temp. IMO, you'd like to keep the junction temp below 100C (preferably below 80C, where Cree specs the XR-E's 50,000 hr lifetime, but I don't think going to 100C is a big deal for a flashlight application).

I think you'd be close to or possibly over 100C junction temperature in an all-Nitrolon setup. I personally would do like SureFire does -- swap out the Nitrolon bezel for a metal Z44 bezel. Otherwise, use the light only for intermittent bursts.

However, if you are going to use the light rarely, then perhaps an LED lifetime of even 500hrs or 1000 hrs is more than good enough. In that case, then you might be ok to use the light in any fashion you please in your all-Nitrolon setup -- continuous runs (I still wouldn't make them excessively long though), short bursts, whatever. I doubt you'll exceed the junction temperature limit of 150C.
 
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:ooo: WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW:ooo:
Something :poof: inside my head :duh2:
Great explanation :twothumbs, maybe too great for my brain :thinking: :D !
Let me see if I understand.:thinking:
Is it just a lifespan issue?
If the drop-in lasts for just 40hrs, that's is fine for me :rolleyes:
It's is more than a xenon bulb life and even cheaper.
So, here comes another question:
Can I run 60 minutes straight without a :poof: ?
If yes, let it burn!!!:devil:

Thank you very much Justin Case !:twothumbs
 
Lifetime implies several issues -- e.g., lumens maintenance, white point (tint) stability, and phosphor degradation. 40 hrs is at the extreme end of the LED lifetime curve and it's doubtful that you'd be able to hit that reliably. Just as likely, you'd get zero hrs.

If it were me and I wanted to go all-Nitrolon with a P4 drop-in (and in fact I have a G2 set up that way), then I'd use the light only for intermittent bursts. How long would be too long for a continuous run? That's the $1,000,000 question. Seat of the pants? I wouldn't go longer than 5 min continuous before letting the light cool down. It could be longer, but I'm conservative. Maybe I can make some thermocouple measurements later.
 
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well...5 minutes is a good *cough* runtime...
however, I'll make a test w/ a few *COUGH* more minutes :devil:

:twothumbs
 
I ran a P4 drop-in once for about 20 min straight and it was really cooking hot! The batteries also felt hot and that is never a good thing. I definitely would not go that long. I hope to put a thermocouple on a P4 drop-in soon. Probably do a 0-10 min test in a G2 host (sans batteries, just running off a power supply so that I can run the thermocouple wire through the battery tube).
 
sunfire, why the comment about your english being ok? I presume it was in jest as you read like a native speaker.
JustinCase is a guru. Bookmark his posts or print them off and re-read them, they contain very little noise and as you retain more and more of the theory, the better off you'll be.
p60 type bezel heads are available in b/s/t from Electron Guru and Nailbender (both great sellers, Nailbender will have it to your door so fast you'd think he couriered it off himself) and in the market place regularly from various sellers. And since you're getting a metal head, either one of them may entice you into a high output drop-in to take advantage of your new cooling capacity.

Two last words for you; 'Free Lumens'
Think about it. I know you have primaries till for-ever. Sell them on market place, buy some rechargables.
 
Primary (3V Lithium 123 and 1.5V Lithium AA) are what I use in lights that don't get a lot of use but I want to work when I need them.

User lights get NimH or LIIon cells for 'free' lumens.

I have an OD Green G2 with a dx 11621 Q5 drop and 2x123. After a minute I start to feel some warmth. I have a small piece of tinfoil tieing my drop to the metal sleeve in the G2.

At approx 3 minutes it's getting warmer. I suspect the drop itself is getting mighty warm.

I've kept it firmly in hand or between my legs for the best part of 10 minutes.

Again I suspect the drop in itself is quite hot. But the light SEEMS to be doing ok.

Just pulled the batteries and they are barely warm. The upper part of the body and the head are warm.
 
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Hello Linger! Thanks about my english :thumbsup:
Reading is easy. Writing ? Not so easy :o
Yes, I had some heat issues w/ JustinCase explanation, but like bodybuilders say: "No pain, no gain":)
Fast delivery? not even if driving a top fuel dragster!:laughing: I live too far!
I bought the solarforce P4 (not a Q5 or R2) because I expected enough lower drive current, but I think I was wrong. I think only the Malkoff ones have these lower options. I'd like to buy a M60LL but will cost me $90,00 :sick2:
When I said:I bought primaries that will last for the rest of my life, it is just 12 batteries.:D
The G2 is for emergency only, primaries are always ready when needed :thumbsup:
I have a Magled 2AA 3W for general use and a Lighthound Keychain for EDC use. :)
 
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Primary (3V Lithium 123 and 1.5V Lithium AA) are what I use in lights that don't get a lot of use but I want to work when I need them.

User lights get NimH or LIIon cells for 'free' lumens.

I have an OD Green G2 with a dx 11621 Q5 drop and 2x123. After a minute I start to feel some warmth. I have a small piece of tinfoil tieing my drop to the metal sleeve in the G2.

At approx 3 minutes it's getting warmer. I suspect the drop itself is getting mighty warm.

I've kept it firmly in hand or between my legs for the best part of 10 minutes.

Again I suspect the drop in itself is quite hot. But the light SEEMS to be doing ok.

Just pulled the batteries and they are barely warm. The upper part of the body and the head are warm.

I never used it for more than 5min straight, but I want the G2 ready for at least 1hr straight run.
Thanks :thumbsup:
 
am i missing something?
cree P4 as in lower than Q5, R2?

i had a couple old cree dropins from DX and they seem to suck down 700 mA, i don't think those run hot enough to degrade the lamp to any meaningful degree. Besides, they are just $10..
 
By 1 hour it's about a 50/50% shot at whether the light will be working.

If the drop in was getting as hot as I think solder might melt by 1 hour or maybe not.

You might consider getting a 3 level drop in. That way you can throttle down to cut heat and extend runtime.

I don't know exactly which light engine is in my Ultrafire 505B but it is far and away my favorite! It does not have slow PWM in low modes.

Surefires own P60L would be another possibilty. It (AFAIK) throttles back to combat heat.
 
The tricky issue is that the heat generation depends on the drive current and the driver efficiency. If you send say 700mA to the LED instead of 1000mA, you generate less heat. If you send 1200mA, then you generate that much more heat. If the driver is 90% efficient instead of 70% efficient, you generate less heat. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about the Solarforce drop-in.

From my previous post, however, I think you can see that the LED is generally the main source of waste heat, unless your driver has poor efficiency and/or the LED has a low Vf (i.e., high efficiency). Then it's about equal. So probably the key variable is the drive current.

If you examine the Malkoff M60L, for example, this drop-in is advertised as compatible with the G2. The stated specs are 140 lumens and about a 350mA current draw at 6V. For 140 lumens out the front, a Cree XR-E Q5 (which is what I believe is used in the M60L) needs about 650mA or 700mA drive current as a guesstimate, which seems reasonably consistent with a Ibatt of 350mA and a Vbatt of 6V. Note the relatively low estimated drive current of 650mA or 700mA vs the more usual 1000mA. Besides being 30%-35% lower, you also will get a lower Vf at the lower drive current, resulting in that much lower of an LED power draw and that much less waste heat generated by the LED.
 
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