Police Study of tactical use of Strobe

[tobrien]

Thank you very much for the great "thread"? on the Tactical use of the Strobe. It made me evaluate my light in reference to the technical specs you mentioned. I have on order an Olight M18 Maverick, and it's 23mm wide, 10 hz strobe, 127mm long, 500 lm bright, and uses 2 CR123 batts. or (I think) 1 18650. So, it's "in there" for the most part. I am very impressed with the research done in this regard, I will probably refer to this "article" for a long time. A big thanks to you!

welcome to CPF! youre correct about the Olight allowing an 18650 as well

 

[groutboy_1]

I kind of like the "Dual frequency strobe" on the 400lm Fenix TK 15 s2...I was testing it on my Dad at about 17ft in a well lit living room...He said he really liked the Dazzler function, and noticed purple spots in his vision for a few minutes...I believe that would definitely upset dark adapted eyes at night...

 

[ccrdiver]

Great stuff, thanks

 

[Mikey66]

My first tactical was a Streamlight, purchased largely because of the stroke feature. Your post was extremely informative and will definitely influence future purchases. Back when I was on the job, the tactical light of choice was a Maglight with the mini-Mag as a backup. My only concern with strobes are those that have the potential for epileptic seizures when exposed to one. They are out there, I am thinking of one meth head in particular… Still, I am more concerned for my safety and the safety of brother officers. Thanks again.

 

[Grizzlyb]

My first tactical was a Streamlight, purchased largely because of the stroke feature. Your post was extremely informative and will definitely influence future purchases. Back when I was on the job, the tactical light of choice was a Maglight with the mini-Mag as a backup. My only concern with strobes are those that have the potential for epileptic seizures when exposed to one. They are out there, I am thinking of one meth head in particular… Still, I am more concerned for my safety and the safety of brother officers. Thanks again.

Thanks for the info Mikey,

We did do some research on the possibilities of epileptic seizures.
The very short duration that we use our strobe in tactical combat, the small light (not filling the the complete site of the viewer) and the fast strobe more or less cancels out the chance epileptic seizures. We use it for several years now and jet have to see 1 incident.
And then, all the alternatives of using force have a bigger chance of doing harm to people.

 

[tobrien]

My first tactical was a Streamlight, purchased largely because of the stroke feature. Your post was extremely informative and will definitely influence future purchases. Back when I was on the job, the tactical light of choice was a Maglight with the mini-Mag as a backup. My only concern with strobes are those that have the potential for epileptic seizures when exposed to one. They are out there, I am thinking of one meth head in particular… Still, I am more concerned for my safety and the safety of brother officers. Thanks again.

true about people who are epileptic. You got me wondering what the number might be, at least in the US. after some searching, apparently "for about 3 percent of people with epilepsy, exposure to flashing lights at certain intensities or to certain visual patterns can trigger seizures."

interestingly enough, it's typically 5 Hz to 30 Hz regarding flash frequency:

The frequency or speed of flashing light that is most likely to cause seizures varies from person to person. Generally, flashing lights most likely to trigger seizures are between the frequency of 5 to 30 flashes per second (Hertz).

source: http://www.epilepsy.com/learn/triggers-seizures/photosensitivity-and-seizures

anyone know what typical flashlight drivers strobe at?

 

[Grizzlyb]

true about people who are epileptic. You got me wondering what the number might be, at least in the US. after some searching, apparently "for about 3 percent of people with epilepsy, exposure to flashing lights at certain intensities or to certain visual patterns can trigger seizures."
interestingly enough, it's typically 5 Hz to 30 Hz regarding flash frequency:

Hi Tobrien.

As far as we gathered the info, about 1 in 3000 people has epilepsy in some degree.
3 % of that group (total of 1 in 100.000 people) has a form that will be triggered by light at a certain frequency somewhere between 1 and 30 Hz (more in the lower part and less frequent above 15Hz.
That is for every person a different frequency.
Normally it only becomes a problem when the total vision is filled with that light, for instance:
A child that is way to close by the TV. Or a party room that is filled with stroboscopic lights.
And to make it even more difficult to understand, it seems to be that it also has to do with color. Some only have problems with Red or Green.

So the chance that we encounter a suspect that is in the categorie of the strobe frequency that we use is extremely low.

 

[texas cop]

Hi Tobrien.

As far as we gathered the info, about 1 in 3000 people has epilepsy in some degree.
3 % of that group (total of 1 in 100.000 people) has a form that will be triggered by light at a certain frequency somewhere between 1 and 30 Hz (more in the lower part and less frequent above 15Hz.
That is for every person a different frequency.
Normally it only becomes a problem when the total vision is filled with that light, for instance:
A child that is way to close by the TV. Or a party room that is filled with stroboscopic lights.
And to make it even more difficult to understand, it seems to be that it also has to do with color. Some only have problems with Red or Green.

So the chance that we encounter a suspect that is in the categorie of the strobe frequency that we use is extremely low.

I've dealt with more than a few people who were in a seizure or just recovering from one. I've never had any nearly as violent as those portrayed on TV. Most lasted less than a minute, a little panting and drool. The longest was an on/off 30 minute series of little seizures, patient had also been refusing his medication for sometime. The slim chance of one being triggered from a defensive flashlight is probable more than worth the trade off. Not trying to down play a seizure but they look far worse than they are.

 

[tobrien]

Hi Tobrien.

As far as we gathered the info, about 1 in 3000 people has epilepsy in some degree.
3 % of that group (total of 1 in 100.000 people) has a form that will be triggered by light at a certain frequency somewhere between 1 and 30 Hz (more in the lower part and less frequent above 15Hz.
That is for every person a different frequency.
Normally it only becomes a problem when the total vision is filled with that light, for instance:
A child that is way to close by the TV. Or a party room that is filled with stroboscopic lights.
And to make it even more difficult to understand, it seems to be that it also has to do with color. Some only have problems with Red or Green.

So the chance that we encounter a suspect that is in the categorie of the strobe frequency that we use is extremely low.

i know I'm saying it's extremely unlikely you'd really run into someone with light sensitivity for epilepsy. statistically speaking it is possible, but the chances are slim

I've dealt with more than a few people who were in a seizure or just recovering from one. I've never had any nearly as violent as those portrayed on TV. Most lasted less than a minute, a little panting and drool. The longest was an on/off 30 minute series of little seizures, patient had also been refusing his medication for sometime. The slim chance of one being triggered from a defensive flashlight is probable more than worth the trade off. Not trying to down play a seizure but they look far worse than they are.

I agree that it's worth the trade-off for LEO safety (if that's what you're saying)

 

[anotherred]

Interesting read.

 

[Mashadaar]

WHEW!! That was a lot of reading, most of it very informative and interesting. In my search for the best possible tactical light, I have come here and will seriously consider the TDL20 (hopefully the "perfected version?). I had a thought while reading this in improving the function as a tactical tool a little through design. The UI one-button, insta-strobe feature is stressed multiple times as being essential for a number of good reasons, including minimizing user error in high stress situations. What if the holster and light were specially designed to activate strobe upon exiting the holster without any input from the LEO? All you have to do is draw it and it's functioning. This would minimize the deployment of the strobe to the smallest amount of time necessary while also removing additional unnecessary risk of user error.

I'm still new to all this so I may be speaking out of ignorance but I think that could optimize it even further. This would also free up functionality for other options (I believe you mentioned having a selector ring of some sort?)

Personally, I want something that is actually meant to be utilized as a weapon in addition to having the strobe potential of your tactical light (And since I have failed to say this thusfar, I am awed by your efforts and greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge.) I'm not a LEO, civilian strongly interested in self-defense (I like Bujinkan), wilderness survival, and tactical ways of thinking. I like to be prepared for the worst case scenario (What else would you call having to use a flashlight as a weapon?) And in a worst case scenario I'll use any edge I can to make sure I get home to my family. That being said, the idea of a tactical light/combat light combination is very appealing to me as I have the tactical functionality of light with the increased combat ability a small weapon affords while also not actually/seemingly carrying something that is a weapon. This is another aspect of tactical thinking. Anything can be used as a weapon with the right mindset.

Honestly though, I think what you have already is very good if not close to perfect. Any combat modifications I can think of would be relatively minor. I would definitely like to hear your thoughts on that holster modification, Grizzlyb.

And any other lights you could recommend for my purposes would be appreciated. So far I am considering the viking pro by armytech for it's amazing programability (I CAN ADJUST THE STROBE TO MY LIKING?!) in addition to the TDL20.

 

[tobrien]

WHEW!! That was a lot of reading, most of it very informative and interesting. In my search for the best possible tactical light, I have come here and will seriously consider the TDL20 (hopefully the "perfected version?). I had a thought while reading this in improving the function as a tactical tool a little through design. The UI one-button, insta-strobe feature is stressed multiple times as being essential for a number of good reasons, including minimizing user error in high stress situations. What if the holster and light were specially designed to activate strobe upon exiting the holster without any input from the LEO? All you have to do is draw it and it's functioning. This would minimize the deployment of the strobe to the smallest amount of time necessary while also removing additional unnecessary risk of user error.

I'm still new to all this so I may be speaking out of ignorance but I think that could optimize it even further. This would also free up functionality for other options (I believe you mentioned having a selector ring of some sort?)

Personally, I want something that is actually meant to be utilized as a weapon in addition to having the strobe potential of your tactical light (And since I have failed to say this thusfar, I am awed by your efforts and greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge.) I'm not a LEO, civilian strongly interested in self-defense (I like Bujinkan), wilderness survival, and tactical ways of thinking. I like to be prepared for the worst case scenario (What else would you call having to use a flashlight as a weapon?) And in a worst case scenario I'll use any edge I can to make sure I get home to my family. That being said, the idea of a tactical light/combat light combination is very appealing to me as I have the tactical functionality of light with the increased combat ability a small weapon affords while also not actually/seemingly carrying something that is a weapon. This is another aspect of tactical thinking. Anything can be used as a weapon with the right mindset.

Honestly though, I think what you have already is very good if not close to perfect. Any combat modifications I can think of would be relatively minor. I would definitely like to hear your thoughts on that holster modification, Grizzlyb.

And any other lights you could recommend for my purposes would be appreciated. So far I am considering the viking pro by armytech for it's amazing programability (I CAN ADJUST THE STROBE TO MY LIKING?!) in addition to the TDL20.

welcome to CPF, fellow Georgian

I think Armytek is about as good as you can get for adjustment of strobe frequency, but you could get a light engine programmed to have, say, alternating frequency strobes and anything else you want, so it's not simply "you have to go with whatever the brands put out"

 

[Mashadaar]

Thanks!

So I went ahead and ordered a TDL20. Can't wait to get it. Gonna get the holster too. Would definitely like to get a modification to activate it upon drawing it from the holster and maybe some self-defense modifications. I got some buddies I'm going to to play with to get a feel for it. Would like to eventually get 2 for team play. I'd very much like to hear more about training with this, if anyone with that sort of experience still reads this thread.

 

[wichaka]

Been in the LE world for 26+ years, and find the strobe to be debilitating on both ends...user and suspect alike.

Doesn't take but a few flashes, and I find myself a bit disoriented.

 

[tobrien]

Thanks!

So I went ahead and ordered a TDL20. Can't wait to get it. Gonna get the holster too. Would definitely like to get a modification to activate it upon drawing it from the holster and maybe some self-defense modifications. I got some buddies I'm going to to play with to get a feel for it. Would like to eventually get 2 for team play. I'd very much like to hear more about training with this, if anyone with that sort of experience still reads this thread.

no problem man! how close are you to Smyrna? You really ought to visit GoingGear because they have a ton of lights you can try out and see what works best. GG and its staff are members here and are great people. they have a CPF discount too (in store and online)!

Been in the LE world for 26+ years, and find the strobe to be debilitating on both ends...user and suspect alike.

Doesn't take but a few flashes, and I find myself a bit disoriented.

you've got me thinking now... what if the strobe mode was slightly dimmer? maybe on the order of 50% output or less. Perhaps that'd give the suspect all the burst of light with as little bounceback as possible

 

[wichaka]

I routinely use 320 and 500 lum. lights and have never found them to be too much light, even in very small rooms. But in pointing them in the eyes of people, they seem to do well at blinding them fine, without the strobe thing going on. Which means the light is more usable, especially the ambient light it puts off, which is more than enough to see and keep the situation at hand.

But everyone has their favorites.

 

[rickypanecatyl]

Strobe vs Moonlight mode

Here's some random strobe vs moonlight mode I shared with a popular flashlight manufacturer recently. I know you are probably wondering what the heck those two modes have to do with each other and the context was:

1. How incredibly important "moonlight" mode is in extreme tactical situations and
2. This particular manufacturer has a problem where their lights will randomly jump from moonlight to strobe - often at the most inconvenient times.

I love your lights guys! I've got 4 now but have purchased over 20 in the past 2 years to give as gifts.

One thing I keep hoping for you guys to add is a "moonlight" mode to many of your lights! A personal point of reference I've found:

.05 lumens = enough (barely) to read a book in bed at night.
.2 lumens = perfect for reading a book in bed at night with my wife already asleep!
4 lumens = my wife will wake up from a dead sleep in the middle of the night and groan at me to turn it off.
11 lumens (lowest mode on your Gxxx) = blind myself trying to read.


For what it's worth, I'm a civilian working for an NGO doing relief work in disaster/war areas and spend much of my time in Myanmar/Burma, Iraq, Syria, Indonesia and Southern Philippines. I'm constantly crossing paths with SF & Recon guys who as you can imagine like checking out my lights.
The 2 most important modes to me are turbo and moonlight. Moonlight is uber important to me as a non-combatant in extremely hostile areas aiding civilians. Often I need the minimum amount of light possible so as to not draw attention to myself/ourselves in the jungle in a war zone at night.
It's probably MORE important to me than the military guys I'm with as I don't have a weapon to defend myself. At the same time, virtually all the military guys in those recon type situations see the value of the moonlight mode (if they didn't before) and want it!
For what it's worth I'd estimate 4 out of 5 of those guys in the most "tactical" of situations would gladly swap moonlight for strobe.

 

[bluemax_1]

Re: Strobe vs Moonlight mode

Here's some random strobe vs moonlight mode I shared with a popular flashlight manufacturer recently. I know you are probably wondering what the heck those two modes have to do with each other and the context was:

1. How incredibly important "moonlight" mode is in extreme tactical situations and
2. This particular manufacturer has a problem where their lights will randomly jump from moonlight to strobe - often at the most inconvenient times.

Interesting anecdotal info, just bear in mind that once again, it's different strokes for different folks. In a war zone, the usage of strobing lights is less critical, especially in the jungle. Fully automatic fire will be stroboscopic enough.

The only potential use I'd see in a war zone is perhaps for building clearing.

Just as US vs EU LEO usage differs, wrt having a light with a strobe 'option' vs ALWAYS coming on in strobe mode, so differs the necessity for strobe vs a moonlight mode in a war zone. You'll find the desire for a moonlight mode in a flashlight for US LEO to be in the extremely small percentile. The most desirable is Turbo momentary and constant, coupled with a medium/low "don't blind myself while writing a ticket" mode. Strobe is optional, but hardly anyone wants a super dim mode that could be accidentally accessed when full brightness is required far more often. The percentage of usage for moonlight mode during a stakeout etc. is extremely low on the priority list.

In a war zone on the other hand, I'd prioritize a stealth/moonlight mode and a Turbo and pass on the strobe.



Max

 

[Mashadaar]

no problem man! how close are you to Smyrna? You really ought to visit GoingGear because they have a ton of lights you can try out and see what works best. GG and its staff are members here and are great people. they have a CPF discount too (in store and online)!


you've got me thinking now... what if the strobe mode was slightly dimmer? maybe on the order of 50% output or less. Perhaps that'd give the suspect all the burst of light with as little bounceback as possible

I used to live in Marietta which is like 5 mins from Smyrna but live about 2 1/2 hours N/E now.

So I got one of these lights about a week ago and have to say I'm even more impressed than I expected to be. You can feel and see the quality of this light clearly. It's got an surprising amount of throw for such a small light and the flood is more than enough. I was surprised by the strobe. It's a lot faster than I thought it would be. You almost can't even tell it's strobing if it's pointed away from you, the beam is almost solid, more like PWM (I think that is the term?) That being said, when someone gets hit with it in a low light situation, it's quite debilitating and moderately disorientating. I would like to be able to adjust the strobe to a slower speed. When the batteries are almost dead in this thing it shuts off immediately (runs at full juice straight up to empty). after that, you can hold the momentary on for a much weaker and slower strobe which I found extremely disorientating even though it was not pointed at me. Not really usable but it was interesting to see the differences in strobe.

The modes are easy to switch between and honestly, you can use strobe instead of constant beam for the most part. It's such a fast strobe it doesn't really affect the user. Though I started to develop a slight headache after extended use. Probably due to eyestrain from re-focusing so quickly.

I'm just as impressed with the holster as I am with the light. Clips onto your belt, held VERY securely, yet quick to remove and use. I would say it is the flashlight equivalent to a Serpa holster for pistols, in quality. It's nice that it rotates so I can have a waist-mounted light if I need to be hands free (which I often do). I mentioned before that a modification to the holster might make the light even better in a tactical situation. After using this light I can say that any such modification would only make about a 1/10 of a second difference. This thing is so quick and easy to use from the holster it probably doesn't need anything like that. I had no trouble activating the light as soon as my hand touched it to draw it from the holster. It just fits in the hand so well!!!

Will eventually post some shots when I get my camera up and running. I do not regret this purchase and highly recommend this light. It's a solid investment.

 

[jimmy5]

i've also noticed that the strobe is quite annoying on my lamp, but dunno how many hz it is