Poll: How important is momentary function?
- Thread starter Darell
- Start date
Darell
Flashaholic
[ QUOTE ]
Kiessling said:
What I meant was situations like crawling in the basement of your house hunting that kitten baby that escaped...
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey - I've experienced some pretty darn tactical kitties! Now I understand!
[ QUOTE ]
My main point is that simplicity rules and that single-button interfaces are the wrong way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha. Here's the deal as I see it: The Kroll has been the standard "modders" switch for a while. We used it in the McLux, it is on the Arcs, the VIP, LongBow... they're everywhere because it is the best (damn-near ONLY) off-the-shelf switch of its kind. But I don't like 'em much. We have all just made do with them because we had to. Switching with a well-built uController can be a much less wasteful experience. The current doesn't go through a tiny set of contacts that can get dirty and mis-aligned. And your thumb doesn't have to support the mechanical movement of the switch action. So heck... even if the uC switch does nothing more than on/off, I think it is still a great choice.
This IS turning into a great thread. Thanks everybody. Without you all, I'd be outside enjoying this beautiful Saturday with my family. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Kiessling said:
What I meant was situations like crawling in the basement of your house hunting that kitten baby that escaped...
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey - I've experienced some pretty darn tactical kitties! Now I understand!
[ QUOTE ]
My main point is that simplicity rules and that single-button interfaces are the wrong way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha. Here's the deal as I see it: The Kroll has been the standard "modders" switch for a while. We used it in the McLux, it is on the Arcs, the VIP, LongBow... they're everywhere because it is the best (damn-near ONLY) off-the-shelf switch of its kind. But I don't like 'em much. We have all just made do with them because we had to. Switching with a well-built uController can be a much less wasteful experience. The current doesn't go through a tiny set of contacts that can get dirty and mis-aligned. And your thumb doesn't have to support the mechanical movement of the switch action. So heck... even if the uC switch does nothing more than on/off, I think it is still a great choice.
This IS turning into a great thread. Thanks everybody. Without you all, I'd be outside enjoying this beautiful Saturday with my family. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
idea:
a clicky switch that can be rotated for two or three brightness levels. Imagine it just like a Legend 3AA switch on Charlies LGIs ... instead of the lockout-rotation it could have a brightness selector. Simple and effective AND one-handed since it is just the switch and not the entire tailcap that is rotated.
bernhard
EDIT: thread is moving too fast for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Darell, theoretically you might be right, but I actually like a switch that does some travelling and gives me resistance when I push from momentary to constant on ... this is much more natural than actions with a microcontroller that only knows "click".
And besides, it is a much simpler action to press a switch as long as you want light or depress further to click it on. No detours for the brain.
Additionally, I might be brandmarked by the Arc4 fiasco, I admit.
So ... please feel free to convert me to microcontrollers, I'd love to love them, but right now, I am an old-fashioned mechanical guy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
bernhard
a clicky switch that can be rotated for two or three brightness levels. Imagine it just like a Legend 3AA switch on Charlies LGIs ... instead of the lockout-rotation it could have a brightness selector. Simple and effective AND one-handed since it is just the switch and not the entire tailcap that is rotated.
bernhard
EDIT: thread is moving too fast for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Darell, theoretically you might be right, but I actually like a switch that does some travelling and gives me resistance when I push from momentary to constant on ... this is much more natural than actions with a microcontroller that only knows "click".
And besides, it is a much simpler action to press a switch as long as you want light or depress further to click it on. No detours for the brain.
Additionally, I might be brandmarked by the Arc4 fiasco, I admit.
So ... please feel free to convert me to microcontrollers, I'd love to love them, but right now, I am an old-fashioned mechanical guy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
bernhard
Darell
Flashaholic
[ QUOTE ]
Kiessling said:
EDIT: thread is moving too fast for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Dang! Tell me about it! Here I thought I was going to get something done today...
[ QUOTE ]
Darell, theoretically you might be right
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I'm definitely right... in theory /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
but I actually like a switch that does some travelling and gives me resistance when I push from momentary to constant on ... this is much more natural than actions with a microcontroller that only knows "click".
And besides, it is a much simpler action to press a switch as long as you want light or depress further to click it on. No detours for the brain.
Additionally, I might be brandmarked by the Arc4 fiasco, I admit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, yes, yes, and pretty much yes. I'm right there with you. My absolute favorite switch of all time, to date, is the rubber-protected Surefire M/C slickies (what are they? Z48 or something?) The throw, the feel, the protection. I love 'em. They're perfect for me.
Here's something else to ponder though: A uC switch does not need to be single-action. I could have two stages, much like we're dealing with on the mechanicals. And the spring action can be set up to give the proper feedback. And those two stages can be set to do whatever we want. Most simple: half press momentary, full press latch. Opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. The limiting factor, as always is that damn switch! Hell, while we're dreaming, let's go with a triple action switch and cover all the bases! Seriously, while we're USED to single-action uC switches, it doesn't have to be that way. The uC can accept all kinds of imput (which is what all that that clicking and holding is about)... with a multi-action switch, the mechanical position of the switch will determine the input, and I think that would make lots of folks happy. Next we'll add an ignition key, and we'll be all set. Maybe a pinwheel and streamers.
See? I'm not so crazy to have this stuff fascinate me for so long, am I? (I'm not asking YOU, Don!)
Kiessling said:
EDIT: thread is moving too fast for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Dang! Tell me about it! Here I thought I was going to get something done today...
[ QUOTE ]
Darell, theoretically you might be right
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I'm definitely right... in theory /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
but I actually like a switch that does some travelling and gives me resistance when I push from momentary to constant on ... this is much more natural than actions with a microcontroller that only knows "click".
And besides, it is a much simpler action to press a switch as long as you want light or depress further to click it on. No detours for the brain.
Additionally, I might be brandmarked by the Arc4 fiasco, I admit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, yes, yes, and pretty much yes. I'm right there with you. My absolute favorite switch of all time, to date, is the rubber-protected Surefire M/C slickies (what are they? Z48 or something?) The throw, the feel, the protection. I love 'em. They're perfect for me.
Here's something else to ponder though: A uC switch does not need to be single-action. I could have two stages, much like we're dealing with on the mechanicals. And the spring action can be set up to give the proper feedback. And those two stages can be set to do whatever we want. Most simple: half press momentary, full press latch. Opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. The limiting factor, as always is that damn switch! Hell, while we're dreaming, let's go with a triple action switch and cover all the bases! Seriously, while we're USED to single-action uC switches, it doesn't have to be that way. The uC can accept all kinds of imput (which is what all that that clicking and holding is about)... with a multi-action switch, the mechanical position of the switch will determine the input, and I think that would make lots of folks happy. Next we'll add an ignition key, and we'll be all set. Maybe a pinwheel and streamers.
See? I'm not so crazy to have this stuff fascinate me for so long, am I? (I'm not asking YOU, Don!)
Darell
Flashaholic
Wow. The Poll shows about the exact curve I was expecting.
OK,
You guys asked for it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif I will leave out "how" the information is translated to the converter and it can be in a various number of ways. The internals are certainly not trivial but capable of electro-mechanical solutions and specific to the driver and its means of input. I want to make one more qualification here. The number of levels desired can have effect on the usefulness of this switch idea and I am biased in considering 2 to 4 levels more than adequate for my needs. Frankly, I think the returns diminish considerably even after 2 levels but until I can play with a full range dimmer and see if I really am missing the boat, I admit that I *may* be underplaying the value here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
One other thing, I am referencing a light that is large enough to be comfortable held in your hand the way you would say hold a golf club or tennis racket; you with me?
Now think about those old flashlights (before many of your time) that had the slide switch on the side that had a guarded channel raised to protect them. Some had a combo slide and push button (for momentary).
Well I envision a sprung slide that acts like a throttle; further forward its pushed, the brighter the output gets. The "slide" your thumb pushes forward is actually a rocker toggle or "butterfly" in the sense that it has a fulcrum and can be oriented nose or tail down. I doubt I am describing this well. As you slide the switch forward. there is a measurable length of displacement in which the light enters and remains in the same level of output. At any time in throttling forward, the thumb can roll the butterfly back dropping the tail down. The tail has ridged steps or teeth that mate with a "rack" of complimentary teeth in the bottom of the channel. When the teeth are engaged, the switch is blocked from rearward movement; latched in position.
If you could follow me here at all, I am suggesting a slide switch that with normal pressure and movement of the thumb acts like a spring loaded throttle and will return to off when released. You have momentary access to all levels. At any level, the switch can be dropped into a latched position. To unlatch, the butterfly is pressed down in front and the switch position is now once again determined by the thumb's position, relative to the battery tube. The thumb easily can have 3/4" travel in the ergonomic grip I am suggesting and the butterfly could be host to a rare earth magnet with reed switches or hall effect switches under neath or it could be driving a piston forward that enters the head through a sealed bore and mechanically acts on a set of collapsing contact disks or what have you.
Understood, this is not a tactical switch and orientation in your hand is required; unlike the U2. It also can't be used in the various weapon holds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif I do believe it would be up to tactical kitty missions though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
Told you it was off topic!
To give you an application idea, I have one of George80's drivers that will take input from a pot to dictate output levels. In thinking about a host for this, I visulaized replacing the pot with a set of resistors that would dictate "fixed" speeds. I envisioned a switch which immediately closed an on/off contact which would remain closed as the switch was further displaced and guided through selection of the various resistors. I also realized I could spend days on a design that I would most likely not be able to turn into a functioning part. Designing something is one thing; making it is quite another! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
At this point, I think I will try to come up with something down and dirty just to get George80's driver up and running in something so I can start to get a sense of how a full range of light output adds to the versatility of the tool and then take some bumbling baby steps from there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif I have had a functioning 3 stage tail switch for months now but haven't gotten excited about it enough to try to develope it into a dependable design. I think I would prefer an easily latched two speed to a multiple level switch that was independent of a momentary/ constant on clickie. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
You guys asked for it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif I will leave out "how" the information is translated to the converter and it can be in a various number of ways. The internals are certainly not trivial but capable of electro-mechanical solutions and specific to the driver and its means of input. I want to make one more qualification here. The number of levels desired can have effect on the usefulness of this switch idea and I am biased in considering 2 to 4 levels more than adequate for my needs. Frankly, I think the returns diminish considerably even after 2 levels but until I can play with a full range dimmer and see if I really am missing the boat, I admit that I *may* be underplaying the value here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
One other thing, I am referencing a light that is large enough to be comfortable held in your hand the way you would say hold a golf club or tennis racket; you with me?
Now think about those old flashlights (before many of your time) that had the slide switch on the side that had a guarded channel raised to protect them. Some had a combo slide and push button (for momentary).
Well I envision a sprung slide that acts like a throttle; further forward its pushed, the brighter the output gets. The "slide" your thumb pushes forward is actually a rocker toggle or "butterfly" in the sense that it has a fulcrum and can be oriented nose or tail down. I doubt I am describing this well. As you slide the switch forward. there is a measurable length of displacement in which the light enters and remains in the same level of output. At any time in throttling forward, the thumb can roll the butterfly back dropping the tail down. The tail has ridged steps or teeth that mate with a "rack" of complimentary teeth in the bottom of the channel. When the teeth are engaged, the switch is blocked from rearward movement; latched in position.
If you could follow me here at all, I am suggesting a slide switch that with normal pressure and movement of the thumb acts like a spring loaded throttle and will return to off when released. You have momentary access to all levels. At any level, the switch can be dropped into a latched position. To unlatch, the butterfly is pressed down in front and the switch position is now once again determined by the thumb's position, relative to the battery tube. The thumb easily can have 3/4" travel in the ergonomic grip I am suggesting and the butterfly could be host to a rare earth magnet with reed switches or hall effect switches under neath or it could be driving a piston forward that enters the head through a sealed bore and mechanically acts on a set of collapsing contact disks or what have you.
Understood, this is not a tactical switch and orientation in your hand is required; unlike the U2. It also can't be used in the various weapon holds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif I do believe it would be up to tactical kitty missions though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
Told you it was off topic!
To give you an application idea, I have one of George80's drivers that will take input from a pot to dictate output levels. In thinking about a host for this, I visulaized replacing the pot with a set of resistors that would dictate "fixed" speeds. I envisioned a switch which immediately closed an on/off contact which would remain closed as the switch was further displaced and guided through selection of the various resistors. I also realized I could spend days on a design that I would most likely not be able to turn into a functioning part. Designing something is one thing; making it is quite another! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
At this point, I think I will try to come up with something down and dirty just to get George80's driver up and running in something so I can start to get a sense of how a full range of light output adds to the versatility of the tool and then take some bumbling baby steps from there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif I have had a functioning 3 stage tail switch for months now but haven't gotten excited about it enough to try to develope it into a dependable design. I think I would prefer an easily latched two speed to a multiple level switch that was independent of a momentary/ constant on clickie. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
Darell
Flashaholic
Yahoo! We need a smiley of dizzy guy spinning around like a drunk.
OK, I think I may have even followed that. But then I have some practice making sense out of what Don says... some others out there may not be so lucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
While I agree that most uC lights offer far too many levels (If you were happy with level 31, don't you think you'd still be OK with level 30?) I do think there is a case to be made for more than two... and here's the main reason:
You can start off with insanely dim (meaning it can run for weeks or even months at this level and serve as a "find me" or REAL low-light usage for walking around with dark-adjusted eyes) and you can have insanely HIGH. You're not likely to use these two levels all that much in your every day usage... but they will be very handy to have I think. So then we need at least a couple more levels to fill in the every-day stuff. For my money, I'd want a medium low (what we're after with the resistored setting on the Mc2-way (what are we calling those again?), and a medium high (what we'd use in normal full-on flashlight mode that won't trash the battery or burn your hand). And for fun, I'd throw one right in the middle. So basically I'd want three levels, but with an additional two at the extremes. Make sense? If pressed (get it? Switch talk), I could do without the middle one, and call it a two-stage - plus extremes.
Yeah, I don't think I'll be building one of those hall-switched butterfly throttle bodies in my shop there, Don. Unless you can figure out a way to build it with just a table saw and drill press.
Hmmm. Starting to think that this would have been a better fit in the modified section. Always gets that way when Don wanders in.
OK, I think I may have even followed that. But then I have some practice making sense out of what Don says... some others out there may not be so lucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
While I agree that most uC lights offer far too many levels (If you were happy with level 31, don't you think you'd still be OK with level 30?) I do think there is a case to be made for more than two... and here's the main reason:
You can start off with insanely dim (meaning it can run for weeks or even months at this level and serve as a "find me" or REAL low-light usage for walking around with dark-adjusted eyes) and you can have insanely HIGH. You're not likely to use these two levels all that much in your every day usage... but they will be very handy to have I think. So then we need at least a couple more levels to fill in the every-day stuff. For my money, I'd want a medium low (what we're after with the resistored setting on the Mc2-way (what are we calling those again?), and a medium high (what we'd use in normal full-on flashlight mode that won't trash the battery or burn your hand). And for fun, I'd throw one right in the middle. So basically I'd want three levels, but with an additional two at the extremes. Make sense? If pressed (get it? Switch talk), I could do without the middle one, and call it a two-stage - plus extremes.
Yeah, I don't think I'll be building one of those hall-switched butterfly throttle bodies in my shop there, Don. Unless you can figure out a way to build it with just a table saw and drill press.
Hmmm. Starting to think that this would have been a better fit in the modified section. Always gets that way when Don wanders in.
Darell
Flashaholic
Don also brought up the hibernation...
While a mechanical switch is likely to have more resistance while ON (and thus wasting some of your battery capacity), it will certainly waste less power when OFF (as compared to an e-switch). However, I should point out that the e-OFF (when the circuit is really asleep, but waiting for that first button press) draws on the order of 0.02mA. I'll bet NiMH batteries self-discharge at about that rate. At least that's how it seems sometimes. In a smaller light, this is a serious issue, in a larger (and/or rechargeable) light, it isn't so much a problem. A *mechanical* disconnect would we a wise choice in either case. If I were to store a uC light in my car emergency kit, for example. I'd want to disconnect the battery with a quick untwist or something similar.
It turns out that the Swiss Light (Free Light?) suffers from this. The battery is small. The charging PV is small, and that makes the uC draw seem huge. If left in the dark for a few weeks, the thing is dead.
Man, I'm REALLY enjoying this thread. I hope nothing else is happening on CPF, 'cause I ain't looking. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
While a mechanical switch is likely to have more resistance while ON (and thus wasting some of your battery capacity), it will certainly waste less power when OFF (as compared to an e-switch). However, I should point out that the e-OFF (when the circuit is really asleep, but waiting for that first button press) draws on the order of 0.02mA. I'll bet NiMH batteries self-discharge at about that rate. At least that's how it seems sometimes. In a smaller light, this is a serious issue, in a larger (and/or rechargeable) light, it isn't so much a problem. A *mechanical* disconnect would we a wise choice in either case. If I were to store a uC light in my car emergency kit, for example. I'd want to disconnect the battery with a quick untwist or something similar.
It turns out that the Swiss Light (Free Light?) suffers from this. The battery is small. The charging PV is small, and that makes the uC draw seem huge. If left in the dark for a few weeks, the thing is dead.
Man, I'm REALLY enjoying this thread. I hope nothing else is happening on CPF, 'cause I ain't looking. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
tvodrd
*Flashaholic* ,
[ QUOTE ]
Kiessling said:
you mean a McE2S that can click at the end when in full brightness and can be screwed out a bit to lock in low brightness mode?
A nice idea indeed, but it doesn't get you low constant on with high momentary ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
bernhard
[/ QUOTE ]
Bernhard,
Don's latest wonder is a twisty, not clickie. In the off position, you push a little for momentary low beam and a little harder for momentary high beam. You can twist-on to low beam and twist a little more for high beam. When twisted on for constant low beam, high beam is a momentary function with the button.
I have a small issue with all tail switches. They require an overhand hold for one-handed operation. (Unless you count the cigar-butt hold.)I personally do not care for the overhand hold. In my never ending search for smaller/brighter I have settled for bezel-twist switching. It permits ambidexterous, single hand operation and has proven suitable for 2-level operation. Low beam "flash" can be made available by turning one *just* off and using side thumb pressure on the bezel. Same for high beam flash from low beam constant on. Body side switches are an engineering nightmare with respect to sealing. Front twist is easily sealed and provides a minimum cube formfactor.
Larry
Kiessling said:
you mean a McE2S that can click at the end when in full brightness and can be screwed out a bit to lock in low brightness mode?
A nice idea indeed, but it doesn't get you low constant on with high momentary ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
bernhard
[/ QUOTE ]
Bernhard,
Don's latest wonder is a twisty, not clickie. In the off position, you push a little for momentary low beam and a little harder for momentary high beam. You can twist-on to low beam and twist a little more for high beam. When twisted on for constant low beam, high beam is a momentary function with the button.
I have a small issue with all tail switches. They require an overhand hold for one-handed operation. (Unless you count the cigar-butt hold.)I personally do not care for the overhand hold. In my never ending search for smaller/brighter I have settled for bezel-twist switching. It permits ambidexterous, single hand operation and has proven suitable for 2-level operation. Low beam "flash" can be made available by turning one *just* off and using side thumb pressure on the bezel. Same for high beam flash from low beam constant on. Body side switches are an engineering nightmare with respect to sealing. Front twist is easily sealed and provides a minimum cube formfactor.
Larry
Larry, I know how the McE2S works, I have some /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
I was merely describing what Darell might have meant a few posts earlier ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
And wouldn't the switch Don is describing be easily sealed since he is planning to use a magnetic set-up?
While this idea sounds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif, the big drawback I see here is the size of the light needed for this switch, it's bigger than the lights we all seem to use /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
bernhard
I was merely describing what Darell might have meant a few posts earlier ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
And wouldn't the switch Don is describing be easily sealed since he is planning to use a magnetic set-up?
While this idea sounds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif, the big drawback I see here is the size of the light needed for this switch, it's bigger than the lights we all seem to use /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
bernhard
Hey Darell, interesting points about the microcontroller coupled with a mechanical switching device.
Our dream switch would then simply be a digital McE2S where the level of light is controlled by how far you screw the cap in and/or how deeply you depress the tail-button, whichever is higher. The button could be configured the way you described it ... low / high / latch on. The button would then operate with the "baseline light level" set by how far you screw the tailcap in and adding more light as you further depress it.
Sound like everything we wanted ... easy and intuitive, microcontrolled with in fact lots of possibilities while still being suitable for tactical kitty missions /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ...
bernhard
ANOTHER EDIT:
4 levels it would be for me, too, agreed. It seems that we all might agree on this one.
BUT ... a crucial requirement for these 4 levels would be a light that can actually support 4 levels ... I mean, most of our little EDSs do quite well with 2 levels, they lack the power to justify another 2 additional levels. A 2-cell blaster is a different story IMHO ...
Our dream switch would then simply be a digital McE2S where the level of light is controlled by how far you screw the cap in and/or how deeply you depress the tail-button, whichever is higher. The button could be configured the way you described it ... low / high / latch on. The button would then operate with the "baseline light level" set by how far you screw the tailcap in and adding more light as you further depress it.
Sound like everything we wanted ... easy and intuitive, microcontrolled with in fact lots of possibilities while still being suitable for tactical kitty missions /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ...
bernhard
ANOTHER EDIT:
4 levels it would be for me, too, agreed. It seems that we all might agree on this one.
BUT ... a crucial requirement for these 4 levels would be a light that can actually support 4 levels ... I mean, most of our little EDSs do quite well with 2 levels, they lack the power to justify another 2 additional levels. A 2-cell blaster is a different story IMHO ...
idleprocess
Flashaholic
Ugh - too much information to keep up with. Forgive me if any of this has been opined.
Sounds like we need a double-position momentary rocker switch (SPDT, two NO contacts) - or two momentary switches. It sound like we need some other way to get multiple modes of operation without too many time-dependent interface requirements (multi-clicks, press-hold, etc).
Two buttons let you use a digital wristwatch style UI - a "mode" button and an "adjust" button. The "menu" can be one-dimensional, accessable through the "mode" switch, with all adjustments made with the "adjust" switch. The "menu" would be mostly self-indicative (unlike the ARC4) with the emitter behaving as expected per mode.
I'd hope that there aren't too many menu options.
My $0.02:
1. Brightness adjustment: "select" switch adjusts brightness ala LionHeart. This brightness latches throughout other modes.
2. Momentary-on: "select" switch activates light when made. Perhaps emitter remains on at lowest level when "select" is not made, perhaps not.
3. Blinking: "select" switch chooses between multiple blink patterns.
Ideally, brightness set in the first menu is retained when light is off.
The only time-based function in the UI I see a need for would be turning the light off - say a 1-second continuous engagement of the "mode" button (of course, brightness adjustment is time-based). Switching it on could be a press of either button.
Sounds like we need a double-position momentary rocker switch (SPDT, two NO contacts) - or two momentary switches. It sound like we need some other way to get multiple modes of operation without too many time-dependent interface requirements (multi-clicks, press-hold, etc).
Two buttons let you use a digital wristwatch style UI - a "mode" button and an "adjust" button. The "menu" can be one-dimensional, accessable through the "mode" switch, with all adjustments made with the "adjust" switch. The "menu" would be mostly self-indicative (unlike the ARC4) with the emitter behaving as expected per mode.
I'd hope that there aren't too many menu options.
My $0.02:
1. Brightness adjustment: "select" switch adjusts brightness ala LionHeart. This brightness latches throughout other modes.
2. Momentary-on: "select" switch activates light when made. Perhaps emitter remains on at lowest level when "select" is not made, perhaps not.
3. Blinking: "select" switch chooses between multiple blink patterns.
Ideally, brightness set in the first menu is retained when light is off.
The only time-based function in the UI I see a need for would be turning the light off - say a 1-second continuous engagement of the "mode" button (of course, brightness adjustment is time-based). Switching it on could be a press of either button.
Darell
Flashaholic
[ QUOTE ]
Kiessling said:
you mean a McE2S that can click at the end when in full brightness and can be screwed out a bit to lock in low brightness mode?
A nice idea indeed, but it doesn't get you low constant on with high momentary ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, in my excitement, I sort of ignored this the first time. But since it keeps coming back up.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif
I actually DO think this is possible. In no way easy or "garage buildable" but I think such a beast is physically possible. We'd have to ask the guy who's been eating, drinking, and quite possibly sleeping with mechanical multi-stage switches. *cough*Don*cough*.
Kiessling said:
you mean a McE2S that can click at the end when in full brightness and can be screwed out a bit to lock in low brightness mode?
A nice idea indeed, but it doesn't get you low constant on with high momentary ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, in my excitement, I sort of ignored this the first time. But since it keeps coming back up.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif
I actually DO think this is possible. In no way easy or "garage buildable" but I think such a beast is physically possible. We'd have to ask the guy who's been eating, drinking, and quite possibly sleeping with mechanical multi-stage switches. *cough*Don*cough*.
Sub_Umbra
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hi Darell,
I don't have an ARC-4 but I have to bite into this.
Like others, I use momentary as a battery saving device, and I like it for signaling, too. I find the 'reverse momentary' of the Nuwai irritating at best and absolutely disqualifing for serious signaling, at worst.
How fine a point you put on it depends on what you're doing. As a teenager, the second job I ever had involved signaling a winch operator 250 feet away in a very loud, confusing, dangerous environment, sometimes in the rain. The fingers, toes and very lives of others depended on the quality of those signals. To this day I distinctly recall how very difficult the job was made because of the light I was using. This one experience marked the beginning of my quest for better flashlights.
While my signals are no longer 'life and death' I found myself in similar situations off and on for thirty years as many others here at CPF have also.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that unless the momentary function is really good there will be those who will have to reject it simply because they need better.
EDIT: Having just re-read a few posts it finally sunk in that you said 'non-tactical', so...never mind.
I don't have an ARC-4 but I have to bite into this.
Like others, I use momentary as a battery saving device, and I like it for signaling, too. I find the 'reverse momentary' of the Nuwai irritating at best and absolutely disqualifing for serious signaling, at worst.
How fine a point you put on it depends on what you're doing. As a teenager, the second job I ever had involved signaling a winch operator 250 feet away in a very loud, confusing, dangerous environment, sometimes in the rain. The fingers, toes and very lives of others depended on the quality of those signals. To this day I distinctly recall how very difficult the job was made because of the light I was using. This one experience marked the beginning of my quest for better flashlights.
While my signals are no longer 'life and death' I found myself in similar situations off and on for thirty years as many others here at CPF have also.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that unless the momentary function is really good there will be those who will have to reject it simply because they need better.
EDIT: Having just re-read a few posts it finally sunk in that you said 'non-tactical', so...never mind.
Darell
Flashaholic
[ QUOTE ]
Sub_Umbra said:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that unless the momentary function is really good there will be those who will have to reject it simply because they need better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, Sub. Thanks for dropping by.
I agree here. The fact of the matter is, a single-action uC switch will NOT offer an ideal momentary "flash" mode - UNLESS, that is, you don't want latched. Then we can have a perfect momentary. Grrr. So what it comes down to - do we even want a non-perfect momentary mode, or would we be better off to trade it in on some other nice feature?
In a case like yours, it certainly comes down to the right tool for the job. Your use is getting close to tactical there, bub. To give credit where credit is due, the Arc4 actually has a mode where you can lock out all features and make it ONLY MONENTARY - and it works very well in that mode. You can flash instantly and for as short as you want. The problem, as I mentioned, is that a switch like that cannot do both a good latch and a good momentary without a menu change.
Sub_Umbra said:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that unless the momentary function is really good there will be those who will have to reject it simply because they need better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, Sub. Thanks for dropping by.
I agree here. The fact of the matter is, a single-action uC switch will NOT offer an ideal momentary "flash" mode - UNLESS, that is, you don't want latched. Then we can have a perfect momentary. Grrr. So what it comes down to - do we even want a non-perfect momentary mode, or would we be better off to trade it in on some other nice feature?
In a case like yours, it certainly comes down to the right tool for the job. Your use is getting close to tactical there, bub. To give credit where credit is due, the Arc4 actually has a mode where you can lock out all features and make it ONLY MONENTARY - and it works very well in that mode. You can flash instantly and for as short as you want. The problem, as I mentioned, is that a switch like that cannot do both a good latch and a good momentary without a menu change.
Darell, I agree, in theory it should be possible to build one version of "The Perfect Switch" with nowadays technical possibilities.
A nice idea would be to develop an idea for the perfect switch in this thread and let Don build it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif
bernhard
A nice idea would be to develop an idea for the perfect switch in this thread and let Don build it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif
bernhard
Darell
Flashaholic
[ QUOTE ]
idleprocess said:
Ugh - too much information to keep up with. Forgive me if any of this has been opined.
Sounds like we need a double-position momentary rocker switch (SPDT, two NO contacts) - or two momentary switches. It sound like we need some other way to get multiple modes of operation without too many time-dependent interface requirements (multi-clicks, press-hold, etc).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup! Once a dual or tri-stage switch is introduced, then we're in a whole 'nuther ball game.
Though this may be as fun as pulling teeth for some of you, I'm quite enjoying all this. I figure that if I can come up with something useful for a single switch, then adding multi-stage hardware later will allow for some REALLY slick functionality.
I appreciate all the comments guys. If you lived nearer, I'd come over and flash you myself.
idleprocess said:
Ugh - too much information to keep up with. Forgive me if any of this has been opined.
Sounds like we need a double-position momentary rocker switch (SPDT, two NO contacts) - or two momentary switches. It sound like we need some other way to get multiple modes of operation without too many time-dependent interface requirements (multi-clicks, press-hold, etc).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup! Once a dual or tri-stage switch is introduced, then we're in a whole 'nuther ball game.
Though this may be as fun as pulling teeth for some of you, I'm quite enjoying all this. I figure that if I can come up with something useful for a single switch, then adding multi-stage hardware later will allow for some REALLY slick functionality.
I appreciate all the comments guys. If you lived nearer, I'd come over and flash you myself.
a mechanically easier idea for a uC switch:
A rotating switch button (tailcap is always completely screwed in) that goes through the levels:
0 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4
and activates the light accordingly in constant-on, where level 0 would be a disconnection / lockout position.
For momentary-on just press the switch button (the same that you rotated earlier) to override the level set by rotation to a level 4 full power momentary on.
You could even programm different "things" in the 4 positions of the switch or in the momentary action, just according to your taste ...
Very easy to use, and easier to build than the previous ideas ... ahem ... I suppopse.
--> Don? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
bernhard
A rotating switch button (tailcap is always completely screwed in) that goes through the levels:
0 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4
and activates the light accordingly in constant-on, where level 0 would be a disconnection / lockout position.
For momentary-on just press the switch button (the same that you rotated earlier) to override the level set by rotation to a level 4 full power momentary on.
You could even programm different "things" in the 4 positions of the switch or in the momentary action, just according to your taste ...
Very easy to use, and easier to build than the previous ideas ... ahem ... I suppopse.
--> Don? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
bernhard
tvodrd
*Flashaholic* ,
Don's slider concept (located towards the front of the light) using a Magnet in the external moving portion and a pair of reed switches combined with Hall effects inside could be viable. The reed switches would control power semiconductors and the Halls could give variable brightness through analog electronics. No uC and its quiescent(sp) current would be required. Sliding the switch in one direction would yield momentary or maintained (external mechanical detent lock) High. The other direction would give you variable brightness from dim to full, and also have a spring return for momentary and a locking provision. If that's where Don's heading, we ain't going to be hearing from him for a while! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Larry
Larry
And how do you propose to send these "signals" to the front of the bus??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif While you guys get the ultimate switch sorted out, I'll move on to some other more pressing "personal" matters. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif
