Poll: Would this bother you?

[LitFuse]

[ QUOTE ]
Likebright said:
Lit,
I like the strip or the mottling or what ever. Like fine wood the processes gives its identity to each product.Mike /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't think I'd see this type of response. Maybe I should've made a poll option for " I like this sort of thing? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

Bent has a point. Most of the world thinks of us as slightly askew to spend $100+ on a flashlight. The fact that we do so on lights that have cosmetic defects from the factory would seem to reinforce their opinion. Even if you could educate them about the utility of the light, it's still unlikely that they would put their money down for one with a big line(s) running down the side of it. It just doesn't "look right", and there's nothing subtle about it. The "Big Lots" comparison is kinda harsh, but true. It's gonna be tough to recruit new customers if this is their first taste of Arc.

As stated earlier, I am satisfied with what I got for my money. Mostly because I got them at a reduced price though. If I'd paid full price, I would not be satisfied. This is a "glitch" in production and these units should be sold off at a discounted rate. Not as "seconds", but as blemished "firsts" with their warranty intact. This makes more sense to me than "lowering the bar" on cosmetic expectations from the factory and making this sort of blemish "acceptable" for a first quality Arc LS.


Peter

 

[IlluminatingBikr]

I am not too happy. An LSH-S arrived at my house, so I was already expecting something other than the best tint/brightness. I was expecting it to look perfect though. It doesn't; it has three dark stripes down the sides.

What would be a LSH-S second? A light that completely doesn't function, or didn't get anodized at all?

It seems that if you classify my light as a first, there isn't much that can be a second. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

 

[NeonLights]

It's a tool for goodness sake. If you want to have a flashlight to look at because it is so pretty and perfect looking, buy a gold plated Maglite. How about this, Peter charges 25% more for the "firsts" that will be absolutely perfect for everybody who likes to look at their $100-200 flashlights because they are so darn pretty. He then sells "seconds" that may have HA exterior cosmetic blemishes like shown in the pics in this thread for 10% less than the current normal price. Then he offers "thirds" that are the current seconds that may have more serious problems like more extreme LED tint variations.

There is a huge difference between type two anodizing and HA-III. I did a scratch test with a very sharp Benchmade knife on a standard Inova X5T (type 2 anodizing) and one of CountyComm's special HA-III X5T's. The anodizing scratched off the standard X5T very easily while you couldn't see any scratches on the HA-III X5T even though I pressed down much harder. Now what would your precious $100-200 ARC look like if carried in your pocket for six months if it was only type 2? I suppose if the light just sits on a shelf to look pretty, then type 2 may be better.

-Keith

 

[LitFuse]

[ QUOTE ]
NeonLights said:
It's a tool for goodness sake.
-Keith

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is a tool. A premium priced tool. How would you feel if your brand new Snap-On wrench set had defective chrome plating? Or maybe rust? Would you say "Oh well, it still works for it's intended purpose".

I'll buy the "it's a tool" argument, but only to a certain point. A "first" should be held to a higher standard in *all* respects. That's what makes it a first.


Peter

 

[NeonLights]

[ QUOTE ]
LitFuse said:
[ QUOTE ]
NeonLights said:
It's a tool for goodness sake.
-Keith

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is a tool. A premium priced tool. How would you feel if your brand new Snap-On wrench set had defective chrome plating? Or maybe rust? Would you say "Oh well, it still works for it's intended purpose".

I'll buy the "it's a tool" argument, but only to a certain point. A "first" should be held to a higher standard in *all* respects. That's what makes it a first.


Peter

[/ QUOTE ]

Huge difference between rust or "defective" chrome plating on a wrench set and stripes in HA-III finish. As Peter has stated, the stripes or discolorations in the HA-III finish do not affect the finish's structural integrity at all. On the other hand rust or defective chrome plating on a wrench likely menas the integrity of the surface has been compromised, and it will affect the durability of the finish, not so with your ARCs. If the defective chrome on my wrench set just involved discoloration, I wouldn't take it back, since it is just a tool and will be used, abused, and get stained up, nicked up, and beat up while being used for its intended purppose. I have received tools that had apparent "defects" such as upside down printing on a socket or other minor surface blems. If the integrity of the surface plating wasn't affected (not the cosmetics) I kept the tool.

FWIW, Craftsman does make gold plated sockets and wrenches that some of you may be interested in.

-Keith

 

[PluckyPleco]

Frankly?

I didn't notice the stripe on mine until this poll pointed it out and I checked.

I use the flashlight, as a tool, in the dark. Very difficult to see the stripe.

But then again, I bought it as a tool, not as a work of art. (But it is BOTH).

Although I can't resist adding my "I told you so" about waiting for a later build of the unit due to 'surprizes' in the first couple of production runs ;-)

Plec

 

[LitFuse]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, Craftsman does make gold plated sockets and wrenches that some of you may be interested in.

-Keith

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif

 

[Gransee]

I'm sorry for the blemishes guys.

We have standards for utility and we have standards for cosmetics. These standards were drawn out by me so that we (the company) may pursue my goals of utility.

Utility Standard
This is an Absolute standard
The unit must meet the original design criteria of functionality and reliability. This includes brightness, tint, waterproofness, on/off, functions, drop resistance, run times, etc.
If the standard is not met, the product is recalled and replaced under a lifetime warranty with a unit that does meet the standard. This assumes we know about the substandard unit so that we may address the problem.

Cosmetic Standard
This is a Relative standard
Cosmetics are how the unit appears and includes variations in the color of HA, small effects in optics that does not cause the unit to deviate from the Utility Standard but are visibly apparant upon direct inspection, etc.
The unit is graded into three catagories of successive appearance. Premium, Standard and Seconds.
Since the standard is relative, units in production are rated on a sliding scale. The upper 70% or so in appearance are made into premiums, the lower percentage in appearance are made into Standards or Seconds. The determination of if a unit is made into a second is primarily based on Utility but can also be made because of excessive Cosmetics (the 5% worst cases for example).

If you understand this, you will see that I combine principles with pragmatism. I have learned (and keep learning!) that to fight the battles I really want to win, I need to forgo some lesser battles. Basically, "choose your battles". Cosmetics is one that I have chosen to not fight as much so that I have more strength to fight the more important battle of utility. I think I have demostrated that I am effective at waging war in the utility arena.

And of course, I am not surprised that some people feel differently about cosmetics. I know that for some it is more important. And this recent batch is some of worse we have had. I know all that. And I am not shocked that this will loose us some business. But nor is my pursuit of pragmatism all foolish. Our sales numbers show that there are quite a few people who are also looking first and formost for a good tool. We currently have quite a few back orders on the books and last month was the highest grossing sales period in the entire period of the company. Now I know that me saying this will cause some to think that these sales figures would cause me to be more bold in my supposed "disregard" for the almighty customer's sensibilities. But, I hear your pain and I share it. Let me remind you that I work over 80 hours a week on serving you but we will not always agree on what MY priorities should be. I am giving you notice that my priorities are first and foremost on the functionality of the tool. I say this without turning away from your requests for better looking packaging and improved appearance of the HA. I am working hard on all these issues. I ask for understanding.

Peter

 

[chamenos]

PG: since both black and natural HAIII are no different, i think you should go with black HAIII. if i recall correctly, most people wanted natural HAIII simply because it looked "cooler". that isn't a very good justification for all the headaches that its caused, is it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

the way i see it, if you make arcs to be excellent tools and people buy them for the same reason, then the colour of the light shouldn't be a problem. furthermore, people who bought your products to be used as tools would do so whether they were in natural or black HAIII. i know i would /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[chamenos]

[ QUOTE ]
Slaro said:
THAT IS NOT A FIRST!!

To those people that consider those pictures as a first "cosmetically", you are out of your mind!
Do you even know the definition of "FIRST"?
FIRST= FOREMOST IN RANK, value or time. The highest. The Pinnacle. If you think those are firsts then go get new glasses. I own Arc Firsts and they don't have any of those unacceptable lines going through it. Those are seconds!

[/ QUOTE ]

they are firsts as stated by the thread starter...what is the point you're trying to make by denying it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[rumar]

Well said peter.

The next time I'm in the dark with my fist wrapped around my LS, I'll check to see if the light looks good to everyone else in the room.

 

[Flashlightboy]

I voted "Yes" and "Yes". By no stretch of the imagination can that be considered a first quality item. Are people looney? I think people are, to some degree, taking this "it's all about function" stance a wee bit too far. At some level all finish issues can be written off as cosmetic if it doesn't affect the light or integrity of the body but if you're paying for a first, the product ought to be right. No weaseling, whining or complaining, please.

Back to the HA poll. Then, as now, I'm still a bit peeved by the form of the question. The poll set us up by saying that law enforcement/military tended to prefer black v. natural. Other manufacuters used black but the vote wasn't limited to black v. natural.

The 2 to 1 argument is a bit misleading. Natural received more votes but not 2 to 1 over all other colors. First, very few people voted. Second, if you add up the total for all the other colors v. natural, the result is almost evenly split. Third, the poll didn't ask what should be the exclusive color but instead it asked what color would be the most useful.

I'm still voting for black.

 

[chamenos]

flashlightboy, i'd vote for black HAIII too.

 

[BentHeadTX]

Here is the thing that really bugs me about the stripes. If you buy a first, you have no clue on what it will look like. I can see a little lightness or blemish but not a stripe. When the policy changed that minor blemished Arcs could not go back for exchange, I supported that...it is a tool after all.

Now that Arcs are rolling out the door with known major HAIII problems as "firsts" it changes my view on Arc as a company. I can put up with no dealers, the lights are worth the higher price. No problems with the flakey AA/AAA lights, crap happens. Knowingly putting out lights that are not traditonal "firsts" as firsts, I can't put up with.

I get asked about my minimag BB500 R2H all the time. I explain it has it's quirks but I would not recommend it for a non-flashlight nut. Get questions about my Arc AA and I praise it as a great light. They choke when I mention the price but understand my need for such a thing.

My thought is the Arc AAA is the ultimate keychain light, I will be buying 4 or 5 of them as gifts this year. They have to fit the standards of a 2003 Arc first though, no obvious blemishes and it must work reliably. For me, form always follows function. When I give gifts for EDC, form and function should be at the top of the pile. It has my name on it after all.

Has the Premiums become firsts, firsts become seconds? Sorry to be harsh, I have seen too many good companies (medical) go down this road before.

 

[smokinbasser]

Heres my .02 cents worth flashlights are to help you see when the ambient light levels are too low for you to see what you are looking at. If you can see these cosmetic flaws at night when you are using them for their intended purpose then its a problem and you need to quit shitting through your tail feathers and give the light back to a human,owls have no need for flashlights.

 

[Flashlightboy]

smokinbasser,

I have no idea what you said but I like how you said it!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Flashlightboy]

chamenos,

If I could find a NIB, black 3.1 AAA I'd take it in a heartbeat...

 

[LitFuse]

Let's try to stay on topic please. If you want to talk about the HA poll, post your reply in that thread, that's why it's there. If you want to debate the merits of black HA, you could do the same, or start a new thread. Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[BentHeadTX]

Cosmetics are on a sliding scale?
Basically, no standard on what the flashlight will look like? So a second one month might be better than a premium purchased 3 months later? Yes, this the worse case scenario and it will probably not happen. But, it can happen and who thought a striped light would be considered a first a few months ago?
We have the luxeon lottery to deal with and now, everything else. If you get a bunch of M binned Luxeons in a month, with the higher output M bins be the Premiums? After all, who cares what the bin is as long as the light works. The bin does not effect the utility of the light.
With so many variables to deal with, I am going to pass on the Arc LS series all together. The rest of the world is jumping on board with more consistant quality and better prices. I just hope there are a few Arc AAA's left that I can purchase, give as gifts and be done with it.
I don't deal with sliding scales, I have to have a clue of what something is before I buy it. I guess I could get an Arc4x, the best ones are plucked out of the batch and I know I would not get charged $275 for one with stripes. Right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

 

[luxlover]

[ QUOTE ]
IlluminatingBikr said:
I am not too happy. An LSH-S arrived at my house, so I was already expecting something other than the best tint/brightness. I was expecting it to look perfect though. It doesn't; it has three dark stripes down the sides.

What would be a LSH-S second? A light that completely doesn't function, or didn't get anodized at all?

It seems that if you classify my light as a first, there isn't much that can be a second. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the way your mind works, Aaron! Do you think Peter will?