Poll: Would this bother you?

[paulr]

You know I'm not sure what this HA type 3 stuff really gains over type 2. Sure, type 2 gets worn and looks ugly after you've used it for a while, but that's better than looking ugly the day you get it brand new.

Anyway, I don't think those shells should have been sold as firsts, at least not as premium firsts. Not necessarily as seconds with no warranty, but maybe as "firsts with full warranty except for this specific known, no-effect cosmetic blemish", at a small discount. Or the stripe could have been specifically described in the FITD special with the explanation that that's why they're on special. Users don't necessarily require perfection in every detail, but they do want a product that fulfills their expectations, which means don't give them unpleasant surprises.

 

[Wits' End]

[ QUOTE ]
cosco said: BTW Until now I thought the flashlight bodies are made from solid bar of aluminium (like Firefly), not from tube.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Gransee said:
Our theory is that this is a random remenant of the extrusion process used to form the rods at Kaiser.
.....now we cut the ends off of every bar and plate them.
Peter

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like bar to me.
BTW I'd expect it to be a second or reduced with an explanation. But I'd use it happily /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[cosco]

LitFuse said: [ QUOTE ]
Peter told me that these lines are caused by density variations in the raw tube stock. The area where the lines form are less dense, and therefore "suck up" more HA during the plating process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe some typo? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[davidra]

Since mine was bought as a second, and I knew that cosmetics might be a problem, I have no issue with the stripes. But the argument that "these are the Rolls Royces of lights" ain't quite true. You're not going to see that kind of defect on a Rolls, or a Surefire. Peter seems like a great guy, and I'm glad that he participates and discusses these issues with everyone. He also has a product to sell, and he's good at it. Look at the activity on this forum, and consider the amount of money that's been spent on these items. I can get a bar stock solid aluminum Avet fishing reel for what you pay for these small lights. One thing I noticed was that everyone raves about shipping promptly (I got my light in 24 hours). This is a good marketing issue. When I ordered the light I was told I could expect the light in 3-4 days.....but I'm pretty sure the person I spoke with knew the light was going out by overnight mail, so that makes me pleasantly surprised when it arrives. I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out that this is a business. As such, given the premium prices, I think if you order a first, you should expect a perfect light in EVERY way....and I guess those of you about to order an Arc 4 first should know that these lines will be on your unit also.

 

[luxlover]

And how should I feel about paying $149.95 for an LSH PREMIUM and seeing those lines, three of them from top to bottom? My LSH standard light, which I also bought during the "Foot in the Door" special, has no such lines. Go figure! ARC apparently doesn't think that this is a problem. I want to know why their aluminum stock has so much variation in density?

When I bought my first new car in 1994, there were no cosmetic defects "staring me in the face" like the one on my "PREMIUM" light.

I know that I can return it, but what should I do about it?

 

[chamenos]

making the lights in black HAIII would solve all the problems with varying HA tints and other cosmetic issues associated with clear HA. are there any good reasons for not using black HAIII?

 

[red_robby]

just try to sell those lights at a retail store for $150...

 

[stefx]

My Arc AAA has two of those bands, about the same brightness. It's about a year old, circular text near the head version. It doesn't bother me, because the fine knurling makes most of the bands invisible.

Btw, what exactly is the difference between HA III and regular anodizing? Regular anodizing seems to be the thing we call 'eloxation' or 'electrical oxidation'. Aluminium always develops a protective layer of oxide. By dropping it into some acid and by the help of some DC this layer gets much thicker. And it is porous (don't know if this is the correct english word). So this layer can absorb dye/lacquer. This is a very durable method of colorizing aluminium. I have some diy articles about this, and it seems to be very simple. It was a popular diy thing in the 60s.

But what is HA III? Buildup an extra thick layer of oxide soaked with extra hard epoxy resin? Something involving heat?

Stef

 

[chamenos]

stef: from my limited knowledge, HAIII is just regular anodizing applied using a much higher voltage or current, such that the layer of oxidation becomes much thicker and/or harder.

someone more well-informed will have to fill in the details for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[cy]

[ QUOTE ]
Gransee said:
If they had been plated with cheaper type II anodize like what is used on a mag the lines wouldn't have shown through. This is just another example of the risks in using clear HA. This is the first time we have seen this type of defect otherwise we would have a procedure for it. If you look at the part from the end, the 3 density bands are evenly spaced in a triangle and they go all the way to the core of the part. Our theory is that this is a random remenant of the extrusion process used to form the rods at Kaiser.

The problem was not detected until after the plating process. But at that point we had to buy the parts because the plater did not screw it up and the machine shop was buying the stock we instructed them to use. This affects all new LSH models and the first/second run of Arc4 parts. The darkness of the bands vary from unit to unit.

We recently identified this issue as a density variation. At the SS, the Surefire head machinist came by our booth. I showed him the bands and asked him (I was asking anyone I thought would know something) if he had ever seen something like that or knew what it was. He said he did not know. We talked to our platers, machine shops and metal supplier engineers at Kaiser and they all have not seen anything like this ever. Of course, I have to be the one to discover it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Peter,

I've run into this before with HA. But it usually happens when someone is trying to get an item done with lower quality aluminum. Anytime you subject aluminum at the high stresses necessary (150+ Amps for 30-45 mins depending upon load size)to produce HA, it will bring out the different densities and/or alloy differences of the aluminum.

It's my opinion that the production plating shop should have noticed this after a few runs and called you about the problem. At the time of anodizing, it possible to change the color by dying right after coming out of the anodizing tank.

Then it's relatively easy to sort out the suspected parts and run those as HA black. Yes the comment is correct about this probably would not have surfaced if it normal color anodizing was used.

Like someone suggested HA black will greatly mask this cosmetic issue. Instead of complaints turn it into a CPF spl run of black HA some with faint tiger stripes. Everyone would of course dive in to get an Arc4+ in HA black. he he

Thanks,
CY

 

[simbad]

ok, stripes don't really bother me, my LS has three of them on the barrel and other three on the tailcap, the light works perfectly and I am very happy with my puschase, I know the stripes as a first product shouldn't be there but personally I think is a tool,since the anodizing is not compromising the metal it is ok.I think Peter Gransee is making a good job basically paying all the attention to the customers trying to fix the problem,like the AAA's intermittance .I'd never seen any company having the same customers service as ARC.

 

[luxlover]

Peter G,

After all has been said and done, with the understanding that it is a cosmetic flaw and doesn't affect it's function, what will your next step be to remedy the situation?

If the anodizing people are at fault, either have them correct the problem, or have them absorb all or part of the share of your losses for the returns that will most surely follow because of this flaw. I imagine that there will be many lights that will require a replacement or a refund. If it is the Kaiser aluminum's inferiority that is at fault, get a better grade of aluminum that will withstand the rigors of Type 3 HA.

 

[Gransee]

[ QUOTE ]
paulr said:
Sounds like a good reason to use black HA instead of clear. The light would look better and radiate heat better that way too. What happened to using black?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that black would be better cosmetically. The police and military perfer it too because it is low observable and matches their uniforms. But I did a poll on the CPF last year and you guys picked natural 2:1 over black.

Anodize poll link

Dark Blue 23 11%
Dark Green 12 05%
Dark Red 13 06%
Black 55 26%
Natural 103 50%

I would prefer to do everything in black HA. Hard Anodize problems are the number one cause of grief in this business and black would make me less grouchy.

We could just continue to be vigilant with the natural but some variations will continue to occur. That is just the nature of clear HA. Even black HA will have some (albeit less visible) variations. Also black may show some types of wear more visibly than clear because of the contrast level.

Peter

 

[javafool]

Black is cool and may open a new market for the must have one of each bunch. I suspect any of the other colors would also be more suceptable to the same uneven colors as the natural.

TerryF

 

[Chris M.]

I say yes to black HA. Natural is a more "unique" look compared to many other lights, but causes so many problems as you have found, and of course Arc`s lights are unique as they are anyway. Just got a SF L1 in black HA and it looks great! I also liked the HABK AAAs, though natural does look good on them too (shows up the dust in the knurling much less).

I`d love to see the 4-series especially in HABK - maybe switch over when the knurled-head versions are ready. And if it means life over there at Arc HQ gets a little happier, it can only be a good thing, right?


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Likebright]

Lit,
I like the strip or the mottling or what ever. It gives the light a personal identity and if it should get swiped I will know who has it if I see it, Like fine wood the processes gives its identity to each product. A personal look to each unit, something that is lost in the black flashlight world.
Mike /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Lebkuecher]

It may be to late for this but what about taking the raw stock with the strips and creating a special CPF edition LS in black. If it's not too late who would be in for one? Just an idea.

 

[BentHeadTX]

My answer is it would bother me and qualifies as a second.

So, the time line of Arc is looking pretty bad to me.
1. No more internet dealers for Arc.
2. The problems with the electronics of the AA/AAA.
3. No more cosmetic guarantee.
4. Bad HAIII Arc LS's show up.

Put it all together and it turns into a box of chocolates...you never know what you are going to get. (Sorry Forest) I love my Arc AA, of course it does not look like Tony the Tiger either. If the AA had the problem of stripes, I would have Ultra-G's!

As far as ordering several Arc AAA's that I need, I will wait a few weeks after they are available to see if they have stripes. Yes, it does matter a lot to me since they will be gifts to other people. If they saw those stripes, they would figure I got them out of the reject bin at Big Lots.

I will be buying some more Arc AAA's this year. Need to verify that they turn on and don't look like crap before I throw my money down. After all, I have only one place to buy them from, can't actually see them in person and no cosmetic returns.

 

[Slaro]

THAT IS NOT A FIRST!!

To those people that consider those pictures as a first "cosmetically", you are out of your mind!
Do you even know the definition of "FIRST"?
FIRST= FOREMOST IN RANK, value or time. The highest. The Pinnacle. If you think those are firsts then go get new glasses. I own Arc Firsts and they don't have any of those unacceptable lines going through it. Those are seconds!

 

[Miciobigio]

[ QUOTE ]
Likebright said:
Lit,
I like the strip or the mottling or what ever. It gives the light a personal identity and if it should get swiped I will know who has it if I see it, Like fine wood the processes gives its identity to each product. A personal look to each unit, something that is lost in the black flashlight world.
Mike /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

DITTO !

I thinks the very same thing .