Primary vs. Rechargeable. What's in your HDS?

[Modernflame]

IMR is a high discharge rate technology, it has no extra brightness benefit in HDS since they are regulated and are not high drain.

Some of us finicky HDS folks just don't like protection circuits.

 

[bigburly912]

^ no need for them and AW batteries are without a doubt the best I've used. I have some pretty old cells that have lost almost no capacity with regular use. Can't beat them.

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

The biggest issue with AW is the flood that happened to the factory which is why they are so hard to find anymore.

 

[tech25]

Thanks jon_slider. I followed the link and most of those are sold out.

 

[bigburly912]

Yeah. They aren't sold through many retailers at all anymore. As hogo said the factory got trashed.

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

Yeah. They aren't sold through many retailers at all anymore. As hogo said the factory got trashed.

There is also no indication that they will be back in business. We used to buy directly from them, but e-mails have not been answered in months.

 

[night.hoodie]

-No protection circuit: IMR cells share this trait but ...

Nice to see there are other members that are neither fooled nor deluded by ambiguous and most often misunderstood nomenclature.

I use IMR18350 during the day and into the early evening, and CR123A in the same light after my eyes adjust to night, 2xAA in other lights all night long.

Using incan, I see this choice not as secondary vs primary, but 4.2V high brightness vs 3V subdued brightness. 3V is the sweet spot for darkness, and the lumens it provides as about as bright as dark adapted eyes can withstand without having to recover from light blindness.

 

[jon_slider]

Some of us finicky HDS folks just don't like protection circuits.

why?
HDS is regulated, using a high drain cell wont make it brighter
an an HDS wont trigger the protection of the battery on high mode, again since the HDS is not high drain.

So, afaict, the only downside to using a Protected LiIon in an HDS, is that IF you ignore all the low voltage warnings, you could overdischarge an IMR, but not a protected cell.

So, yes, if you want the option to keep running an IMR in Firefly mode, instead of replacing the battery, then unprotected can do that.

I do agree that IMR is a safer technology, being more tolerant to overdischarge than "normal" LiIon.

but, I dont like using IMR, because if I fall asleep with the light on, or lend it to a careless friend that forgets to turn it off, in a light with no built in overdischarge protection, the light will keep sucking power out of the battery until it is way below 2.7v.

4.2V high brightness vs 3V subdued brightness. 3V is the sweet spot for darkness, and the lumens it provides as about as bright as dark adapted eyes can withstand

your HDS changes brightness on Primaries compared to LiIon?
or are you talking about an unregulated single mode light on high mode?
otherwise, if its too bright at night, just dial it down, no?

 

[Modernflame]

why?

Sometimes they break.

 

[peter yetman]

I've had few protected cells break on me. I would never use them in a light that I relied upon.
What's the worst that can happen with an IMR? If you accidentaly run it too low you should dispose of it. The dangerous bit surely, is in the recharging?
P

 

[bigburly912]

Been using imr for a long time. Never a problem. In that same time I've had one protected circuit break. Gave a little spark show and scared me to death.

 

[Modernflame]

In the case of HDS, the protection circuitry is in the flashlight rather than the battery and is therefore potted. You get all the benefits of over-discharge protection without the weakness of the battery PCB. I think I read that you can choose to over discharge your IMR cell in case of an emergency (e.g. lost in a cave), but you're right, Peter. The danger would be in recharging and subsequent use. You'd have to chuck the battery.

 

[jon_slider]

I agree UnProtected IMR is safer, than UnProtected ICR.

However, an HDS does not have complete overdischarge protection, it is capable of overdischarging, in an emergency, IF the user turns the light back on after it shuts off due to low voltage.

thanks for the comments that sometimes overdischarge protection circuits break.

for reference, here are quotes from the manual

https://www.hdssystems.com/Products/EdcClickyAdvUsersGuide.pdf
3. Low Battery Indication
Your flashlight will blink slowly once a second on the lowest brightness level when the battery is no longer capable of powering any of the steady brightness levels.
Caution: your flashlight will eventually turn itself off to preserve what little battery power remains if you continue to use your flashlight after your flashlight begins blinking once a second on the lowest brightness level. You may turn on your flashlight again when needed for a short period. This behavior maintains your options in an emergency.

8. Additional Notices and Cautions
Notice: your flashlight protects rechargeable batteries from over- discharge under most conditions when used as directed. IMR lithium- ion batteries can be used safely without protection circuits – and are normally supplied without protection circuits. However, ICR lithium-ion batteries should always have built-in protection circuits for your safety.

Caution: your flashlight will eventually turn itself off to preserve what little battery power remains if you continue to use your flashlight after your flashlight begins blinking once a second on the lowest brightness level. You may turn on your flashlight again when needed for a short period. This behavior maintains your options in an emergency.

Caution: do not attempt to recharge a rechargeable battery if you think it has been over-discharged or otherwise damaged. Dispose of the damaged battery immediately. An over-discharged or otherwise damaged battery can vent or explode when the battery is recharged or when the battery is subsequently used.


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Thanks jon_slider. I followed the link and most of those are sold out.

sorry for the goose chase, I had not read all the links

fwiw, if you want unprotected IMR instead of Protected ICR, here is a source for Efest brand IMR, (not AW brand, but still IMR technology)

terminology
IMR=Lithium Manganese (LiMn2O4)
ICR=Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2)

ICR is the typical chemistry for "normal" Lithium Ion batteries, they are usually protected, and have button tops, but not always
IMR is typical in High Drain devices such as tobacco vaporizers, they are usually UnProtected and often have flat tops

Flat top batteries dont work in some of my lights
I choose to buy Protected ICR with button tops, so that my batteries are compatible with all my lights, including, but not limited to, HDS

 

[peter yetman]

I have to admit that when a couple of protection circuits failed I removed the PCBs rewrapped and carried on using them.
DON'T DO THIS AT HOME CHILDREN!
After about a year I noticed a couple of them heating up on the charger, I have now disposed of them all and bought some nice IMR cells.
P

 

[scout24]

I use Efest IMR's and primaries, depends on the day. IMR's because I like being able to use my batteries in as many different lights as I want. Some I own are high drain and need the IMR chemistry. As said above, one less thing to go wrong. I believe I have two AW IMR's still going strong too. I'll swap cells as the stepdown starts and consider that my "low voltage warning". .

 

[bigburly912]

"Flat top batteries dont work in some of my lights"

A little bit of solder and all batteries are button tops.

 

[INFRNL]

I think this thread has derailed onto a track that could have it's own thread.

We could agree to disagree on cell types for days.

I normally use protected li-ion and haven't had a circuit fail yet. Most of us carry spare cells, so if one happened to fail, no biggy.

Lately my use is limited, so i have just been using primaries...plus i have a ton of them.

 

[jon_slider]

I think this thread has derailed onto a track that could have it's own thread.

We could agree to disagree on cell types for days.

I normally use protected li-ion and haven't had a circuit fail yet. Most of us carry spare cells, so if one happened to fail, no biggy.

Lately my use is limited, so i have just been using primaries...plus i have a ton of them.

what makes you say derailed?

I'm not sure discussing the different types of LiIon, and the consequences, is off topic for this thread.

HDS recommends both UnProtected IMR, and Protected LiIon.

I see no benefit to IMR, over Protected LiIon. IMR is a high discharge rate cell, and the HDS is not a High Drain light.

If a Protection circuit "fails" in a battery, be glad it was there to stop something else from getting fried. The Protection was triggered for a reason.

but maybe youre right and this thread should only be to answer the poll as to what battery type people choose to use.. I dont mean to be argumentative, just interested in making good decisions for safe battery use, and again that may not be relevant to the poll.

 

[Random Dan]

what makes you say derailed?

I'm not sure discussing the different types of LiIon, and the consequences, is off topic for this thread.

HDS recommends both UnProtected IMR, and Protected LiIon.

I see no benefit to IMR, over Protected LiIon. IMR is a high discharge rate cell, and the HDS is not a High Drain light.

If a Protection circuit "fails" in a battery, be glad it was there to stop something else from getting fried. The Protection was triggered for a reason.

but maybe youre right and this thread should only be to answer the poll as to what battery type people choose to use.. I dont mean to be argumentative, just interested in making good decisions for safe battery use, and again that may not be relevant to the poll.

This is not necessarily true. Battery mounted PCBs are small, cheap, and fragile. They can fail for lots of reasons unrelated to the battery's health.

 

[INFRNL]

I just felt like it got more into the nature of cells rather than li-ion vs primary. I'm also using my phone so i don't comprehend as well as reading on my laptop.

On a side note, glad to see you spending more time with us here lately